Its not one or two million. Its more long term contracts to players in their 30's when Lundqvist is signed for another 7 years. Girardi will be 30. Callahan will 29. 7 year contracts take them to their mid-thirties. Nash will be 30. Four more years for him. You also want to keep Richards. You think Richards is playing good hockey. He hasn't scored a goal in 11 games. Another 34 year old guy. 6 more years for him. Then you will blame the coach. Gaborik? The Rangers could have kept Gaborik and Richards on this team this season? $64.3M cap. Where is the Rangers depth in the organization?
Speculation: Trade Rumors/Speculation Part X: Sather Falls Asleep on the Phone
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Its not one or two million. Its more long term contracts to players in their 30's when Lundqvist is signed for another 7 years. Girardi will be 30. Callahan will 29. 7 year contracts take them to their mid-thirties. Nash will be 30. Four more years for him. You also want to keep Richards. You think Richards is playing good hockey. He hasn't scored a goal in 11 games. Another 34 year old guy. 6 more years for him. Then you will blame the coach. Gaborik? The Rangers could have kept Gaborik and Richards on this team this season? $64.3M cap. Where is the Rangers depth in the organization?
darko
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- Feb 16, 2009
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Fair points.
Now I want to hear your alternative. According to you we are supposed to:
-Trade Cally
-Trade Girardi
-Trade Zucc
- Buy-out Richards.
- Not qualify Brassard
What players do you envision winning the cup for us? What are we getting in return in the trades? What are we using the cap-space on?
You know, I am not trying to be a dick. I just don't see the alternatives always.
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Fail. Barrie has made a team with a great record and is getting 17 minutes a night. Del Zotto can't even start on a team that is .500. If you think the Av's are going to trade him for MDZ, you are delusional.
CharlieCharleschuk
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- Nov 26, 2013
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His contract is so horrible you can't even buy him out normally yet. You have to amnesty him.
Off Sides
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Dallas Acquires: Two second round picks at the 2003 Draft, #36 and #54 overall. Those picks turned into Vojtech Polak and B.J. Crombeen, respectively.
Anaheim Acquires: One first-round pick, #28 overall. The pick was used on Corey Perry.
Also drafted Getzlaf with the 19th pick that year
2004 Washington
Schultz at #27 was a Boston pick
Green at #29 was a Detroit pick
Rangers in 2005
Staal came from trading up, only reason they could because they had extra picks.
There are examples both ways, obviously they would have to take good players with the picks, but without having the picks in the first place, they do not even have a chance.
The Rangers have done pretty well drafting as of late, give them some more picks, let the scouts have a voice in which of the next two drafts they want them in. They could probably get 1st round picks in this or next draft for some of their free agents.
Add in the extra later picks, the ones that produced guys like Stepan, Sauer, Anisimov, Callahan and give the scouts a chance to get some more of those types of players coming up through the system.
Nothing is guaranteed, nothing is guaranteed the other way either, but it's time for the Rangers to break the cycle. Holding on to essentially the same team, with only the cap hits go up, is not going to produce anything that we have not already seen. They just do not have the top end talent required to be a real contender and no matter how hard they try, the Nash trade, it just opens up more holes in the roster elsewhere. They need to add some top end players to be able to beat the Chicago, Pitt, Boston, etc of the league. Whether that means drafting them, trading those picks for them, it just needs to happen if they want to be legit contenders.
Does not mean those pick even have to come from Girardi and Callahan, but they have to come from somewhere. Boyle, Stralman, Brassard, MDZ, Staal, etc if they can bring in those picks, fine, but it's the only way out of this bubble playoff, pretender, rental, draft in 3rd round, maybe no playoff cycle they are in.
darko
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Blue Blooded
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Ola. The issue at hand is that Callahan and Girardi are going to demand cap hits and contract terms that are bad in the short term and a joke in the mid to long term.
Callahan hasn't been a legit top-6 player 5v5 since 2010-11, and while he is great in front of the net on the PP and a decent PK:er (his PK prowess is overstated) it isn't nearly enough to warrant the type of contract that everyone thinks he will get. I'd say his worth is right around what he is making now, if not slightly less.
Girardi has picked his game up lately, but he just isn't a good fit for a contender. He is a perfect fit for a middling team that tries to stay in games and pull the occasional upset. He is perfect for a team that wants to go from bad to decent. But he isn't a fit for a contender that wants to control the play and outplay their opposition on a nightly basis. On a good team he is at best a 2nd pairing D who gets PK time, is that what you want to tie up $5M/year to? Hell, he'd probably be on the third pairing in Chicago with his lack of puck moving skill.
It's not about getting an equally good player in return, it is about getting something of value for players whose contract statuses unfortunately means that they no longer have a place on the team.
Keeping Callahan and Girardi could very well lead to losses of guys like Hagelin, Strålman, and Zuccarello who not only are at least as good, but are and will be cheaper as well. Trading Girardi and Callahan doesn't free up a couple of million, it likely frees up ~$10M to spend on players more suited to their roles: a better 1RD and a cheaper 3RW. If you worry about the uncertainty of the assets received in a trade, flip them to a rebuilding team for something better. If we get 2 1sts and Tatar for the pair, you could probably package that with something to Winnipeg for Byfuglien.
Callahan hasn't been a legit top-6 player 5v5 since 2010-11, and while he is great in front of the net on the PP and a decent PK:er (his PK prowess is overstated) it isn't nearly enough to warrant the type of contract that everyone thinks he will get. I'd say his worth is right around what he is making now, if not slightly less.
Girardi has picked his game up lately, but he just isn't a good fit for a contender. He is a perfect fit for a middling team that tries to stay in games and pull the occasional upset. He is perfect for a team that wants to go from bad to decent. But he isn't a fit for a contender that wants to control the play and outplay their opposition on a nightly basis. On a good team he is at best a 2nd pairing D who gets PK time, is that what you want to tie up $5M/year to? Hell, he'd probably be on the third pairing in Chicago with his lack of puck moving skill.
It's not about getting an equally good player in return, it is about getting something of value for players whose contract statuses unfortunately means that they no longer have a place on the team.
Keeping Callahan and Girardi could very well lead to losses of guys like Hagelin, Strålman, and Zuccarello who not only are at least as good, but are and will be cheaper as well. Trading Girardi and Callahan doesn't free up a couple of million, it likely frees up ~$10M to spend on players more suited to their roles: a better 1RD and a cheaper 3RW. If you worry about the uncertainty of the assets received in a trade, flip them to a rebuilding team for something better. If we get 2 1sts and Tatar for the pair, you could probably package that with something to Winnipeg for Byfuglien.
Off Sides- Yeah, I am leaning torwards doing things opposite as they normally are made by us or the Knicks.
Ie, just try to do the best possible job. Make Nash work, if not as a franchise player as a scorer. Turn McD into a Norris Candidate. Turn Kreider into the PF we miss. Build an extremely hard working home-grown team, -- but -- that still plays the game like Boston, Chicago or LA. Rescue Dan Girardi. Learn him to pass the puck. He is 29? Well, give it a go. He was real nifty with those small passes under Renney but he hasn't made them in 3.5 years. Build a top defense around Hank.
I think odds are highing for this to work than to tear everything apart on a regular basis just trying to win on the lottery. Find "the" player that can lead us to the Cup. Malkin will probably become available when he is 34. We could dump everyone now, have a mess of a team and pick him up them and then scratch our heads and wonder why he didn't lead us to the Cup.
Ie, just try to do the best possible job. Make Nash work, if not as a franchise player as a scorer. Turn McD into a Norris Candidate. Turn Kreider into the PF we miss. Build an extremely hard working home-grown team, -- but -- that still plays the game like Boston, Chicago or LA. Rescue Dan Girardi. Learn him to pass the puck. He is 29? Well, give it a go. He was real nifty with those small passes under Renney but he hasn't made them in 3.5 years. Build a top defense around Hank.
I think odds are highing for this to work than to tear everything apart on a regular basis just trying to win on the lottery. Find "the" player that can lead us to the Cup. Malkin will probably become available when he is 34. We could dump everyone now, have a mess of a team and pick him up them and then scratch our heads and wonder why he didn't lead us to the Cup.
LOL, that is your opinion. So 2012-13 he was not a top 6 forward? Are you smoking crack over there?
So tired of these stupid talks about trading Callahan, they are idiotic.
Blue Blooded
Most people rejected his message
LOL, that is your opinion. So 2012-13 he was not a top 6 forward? Are you smoking crack over there?
So tired of these stupid talks about trading Callahan, they are idiotic.
5v5, he wasn't a top-6 forward 5v5. Just because a player is great at scoring goals in front of the net on the PP doesn't mean that they are good 5v5 contributors.
Good points. And you must of course manage your cap.
But this is our cap-sitaution -- status que (DZ traded) -- from my point of view:
I won't guarantee that anyone won't sign a contract higher than I estimated, but in all instances I counted pretty darn high. We should have some marginals under those numbers too.
My point is just, I am not saying that we should keep everyone. I definitely think we should make a deal or two, we need to steer the ship in the right direction. But I don't see us gettnig into cap trouble in the coming couple of years if we don't unload a bunch of players this summer. Its the opposite I believe. And, if we dump players right now, I think they will be very hard to replace. That's all I am saying. We also have a lot of flexibility under the above roster. Its not hard to find ways to open up room for taking on a top player if we get an opertunity to do so.
Hence, I wouldn't dump Girardi and Callahan for a roster player and a late 1st round pick. I would at least consider not buying out BR. And so forth.
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NYR Viper
Registered User
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
I think it is as simple as you aren't winning a Cup with this roster. You are not going to win a Cup with a roster that retains all the RFAs/FAs they have this year and you won't win a Cup with the roster you end up with next year if you move several of the pending RFAs/FAs. The difference between the former two and the latter is that it gives you the opportunity to try something new and possibly win a Cup in the future.
The era with this group/core is over. Time to move on and build a new core around key pieces.
The era with this group/core is over. Time to move on and build a new core around key pieces.
Point taken.
But if we dump Cally and Girardi we get closer to the cup or what? Honest question.
There is a bunch of questions nobody is answering. Its quite easy to attack a suggestion, but its harder to point at any alternatives it seems.
-If we deal Girardi, who do we play on RD? Strålman-Allen-McIlrath? Cup winners?
-If we buy-out Richards, what do we do with the cap space? Start over and sign Statsny to 49m over 7 years? Would that bring us closer to the cup?
-How does the locker-room handle loosing both Girardi and Callahan? Would it tie the group together and bring a cup to NY?
What suggestions do we have so far:
-Anaheim drafted Perry 28th overall (we can still do that without dumping Cally and Girardi, just for the record lol. Also, Detroit drafted a ton of great players with 7th round picks. Maybe we should try to trade a 1st rounder for a 7th rounder? If you find the steals, you find them. Its nothing you can count on or plan on.)
-It would be nice to have cap-space for once (Anyone who remembers knows that we had a -- ton -- of capspace from 05'-13' and it sucked. Nothing good came out of having that cap space. Almost at least (the Gomez and Gabby trades)).
-Kyle Palmieri (Messier II?)
-Tatar (1-way 55 pt Slovak, book Manhattan, the parade is coming to town)
-Fransson (dealing G for him would eventually be noticed by the marketing department at Vicks)
-Absolutely dump everyone, beat out the Buffalo and EDM of the league, win the lottery, draft first overall 5 times in a row, make the PO's for the first time in 2022 and win a cup in 2026. (lets try it sometime in NY too, not sure 2014 is the best year though)
-Anaheim drafted Perry 28th overall (we can still do that without dumping Cally and Girardi, just for the record lol. Also, Detroit drafted a ton of great players with 7th round picks. Maybe we should try to trade a 1st rounder for a 7th rounder? If you find the steals, you find them. Its nothing you can count on or plan on.)
-It would be nice to have cap-space for once (Anyone who remembers knows that we had a -- ton -- of capspace from 05'-13' and it sucked. Nothing good came out of having that cap space. Almost at least (the Gomez and Gabby trades)).
-Kyle Palmieri (Messier II?)
-Tatar (1-way 55 pt Slovak, book Manhattan, the parade is coming to town)
-Fransson (dealing G for him would eventually be noticed by the marketing department at Vicks)
-Absolutely dump everyone, beat out the Buffalo and EDM of the league, win the lottery, draft first overall 5 times in a row, make the PO's for the first time in 2022 and win a cup in 2026. (lets try it sometime in NY too, not sure 2014 is the best year though)
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NYR Viper
Registered User
The main idea is that you have to take a step back from mediocrity in order to give yourself a better chance at being better in the future.
Stralman, Allen and look into getting a RD in return for a piece t some point.
Re-distribute the wealth over the line-up. Keeping Richards because there isn't a player available this off-season to immediately replace him specifically in a 1 for 1 is not a smart long term move.
They have to understand the organization is trying to bring in long-term pieces so that they can eventually re-sign others. There is a Cap. It happens.
NYR Viper
Registered User
Ola you are taking peoples proposals way too literally.
Plamieri + 1st for Girardi who is an upcoming UFA is a good deal. Palmieri, while not a world beater right now offensively, plays a very good all around game. The 1st round pick is a solid piece. Would you be okay having another Skjei or Miller or Kreider in the system or on the Rangers? I would.
No one has any idea what other teams would offer, just that they would be coveted. Let another team overpay them. Callahan will easily get 6+ million. Same with Girardi. The UFA class this year is awful. Are you okay putting 12+ million into those (2) players? I'm not.
You don't make a decision like this based on 1 year. They will be long term contracts. How will they effect the team in 4 years? 5 years? 6 years?
If you give them that type of money, they have to be the leaders at all facets of the game. Are you good giving them that money and with them leading this team to a Cup?
Richards needs to go because we need the cap space to rebuild and sign or acquire other younger talent if need be, on offense and defense.
Girardi and DZ are two tradeable pieces. They do not seem to fit AV's system, or in Girardi's case just too much money/contract term is going to be a sticking point for a player getting older who can be replaced by a younger stay-at-home defenseman.
Returns for Girardi, DZ, or any other player will hopefully give the team more players who are true "2nd line" players. I think we have enough 3rd/4th line prospects who are capable of upgrading over current players like Boyle, Moore, Dorsett. I would keep Boyle or Moore for right price, but in Boyle's case - he is paid to much for what he brings to the table.
Girardi and DZ are two tradeable pieces. They do not seem to fit AV's system, or in Girardi's case just too much money/contract term is going to be a sticking point for a player getting older who can be replaced by a younger stay-at-home defenseman.
Returns for Girardi, DZ, or any other player will hopefully give the team more players who are true "2nd line" players. I think we have enough 3rd/4th line prospects who are capable of upgrading over current players like Boyle, Moore, Dorsett. I would keep Boyle or Moore for right price, but in Boyle's case - he is paid to much for what he brings to the table.
NYR Viper- Do we know that a player making 6m per must be a leader of his team in 4-5 years?
If Cally makes 6m in 5 years, he will be 34 y/o, that is like making 3.9m today. Its not like I am terrified at the prospect of paying Cally "3.9m" per when he is 34 y/o. It sounds like G will take 5.5m per, that's like 3m per when he is 34-35 y/o.
For all I know, Girardi might as well be a bargin at that cost as he might be a burden. But what do I know... Everyone else is darn sure of themselves though.
CAP:
1y 71m
2y 78m
3y 83.85m (counting on 7.5% growth (given the PA bumper being 5% that is very modest))
4y 90.13m
5y 96.9m
Richards scares me for real. He scared me before we got him, and he still scares me. You know, there you got a legit question, how good will BR be in 3-4 years? But I don't quite understand why everyone is so afraid of Girardi and Callahan signing at around 5.5 - 6m per on long term deals right now. They are 29 and 30. The cap is going up a ton in the near future.
Also, you talk about taking a step back to move forward. You know, wheter I take everyone's proposals litterary or not, I still don't see how we are to move forward. Its that part I am missing. Since we are taking a step back too, we have to move forward a heck of a lot longer had we not taken the step back to start with. Who is moving us forward? Palmieri? THe 1st? The cap space we save on Girardi? You know, I can't evens see who will log the minutes we have at RD. Let alone fix any of the flaws we have.
If Cally makes 6m in 5 years, he will be 34 y/o, that is like making 3.9m today. Its not like I am terrified at the prospect of paying Cally "3.9m" per when he is 34 y/o. It sounds like G will take 5.5m per, that's like 3m per when he is 34-35 y/o.
For all I know, Girardi might as well be a bargin at that cost as he might be a burden. But what do I know... Everyone else is darn sure of themselves though.
CAP:
1y 71m
2y 78m
3y 83.85m (counting on 7.5% growth (given the PA bumper being 5% that is very modest))
4y 90.13m
5y 96.9m
Richards scares me for real. He scared me before we got him, and he still scares me. You know, there you got a legit question, how good will BR be in 3-4 years? But I don't quite understand why everyone is so afraid of Girardi and Callahan signing at around 5.5 - 6m per on long term deals right now. They are 29 and 30. The cap is going up a ton in the near future.
Also, you talk about taking a step back to move forward. You know, wheter I take everyone's proposals litterary or not, I still don't see how we are to move forward. Its that part I am missing. Since we are taking a step back too, we have to move forward a heck of a lot longer had we not taken the step back to start with. Who is moving us forward? Palmieri? THe 1st? The cap space we save on Girardi? You know, I can't evens see who will log the minutes we have at RD. Let alone fix any of the flaws we have.
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silverfish
got perma'd
Unpopular opinion, but if I was constructing a team and had a choice between Boyle and Konopka, I'd take Konopka every time.
CharlieCharleschuk
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I could live with Girardi getting a solid UFA deal. I think he gives you a good defenseman day-in day-out. I think he'll get the new system sooner or later. I didn't have a problem with Rozsival either, though, so there's that.
With Callahan I worry about declining health and production.
With Callahan I worry about declining health and production.
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
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