Rumor: Trade Rumor Thread IV - "What's all the roar over RoR?"

[SnowblindNYR]

How does ROR's offense compare to Stepans? I mean passing skills/shot and stuff like that.

 

[SupersonicMonkey*]

Personally I would much rather pay ROR 4M long term than MDZ.

Agree. For many reasons.

 

[SupersonicMonkey*]

How does ROR's offense compare to Stepans? I mean passing skills/shot and stuff like that.

I'd say their skill is mostly on par with each other.

O'Reilly is a more efficient skater, right now is more efficient on face offs.

Because of his skating, O'Reilly is able to make more plays than Stepan would be able to get to.

All this said, I personally feel both have equal upside for slightly differing reasons. Both are high character guys.

And as far as points go, both have 60+ point upside. And are both #1-#2 centers long-term.

I would personally feel a lot more comfortable going forward with Stepan and O'Reilly as our #1 and #2 then Richards being there for the next 7 years at 33+ years old, at 6.6 million per.

O'Reilly
Stepan
Miller

Give you three two way centers. Strong down the middle.

Lindberg shows up next year and you have four. Nieves in the system gives you five.

Suddenly its a position of strength.

Losing Del Zotto wouldn't hurt the long-term strength of our defense. McDonagh, Girardi, Staal, Stralman, McIlrath, Skjei, Noreau. And who ever we bring in later. Hopefully Barrie.

 

[Matt4776]

I'd say their skill is mostly on par with each other.

O'Reilly is a more efficient skater, right now is more efficient on face offs.

Because of his skating, O'Reilly is able to make more plays than Stepan would be able to get to.

All this said, I personally feel both have equal upside for slightly differing reasons. Both are high character guys.

And as far as points go, both have 60+ point upside. And are both #1-#2 centers long-term.

I would personally feel a lot more comfortable going forward with Stepan and O'Reilly as our #1 and #2 then Richards being there for the next 7 years at 33+ years old, at 6.6 million per.

O'Reilly
Stepan
Miller

Give you three two way centers. Strong down the middle.

Lindberg shows up next year and you have four. Nieves in the system gives you five.

Suddenly its a position of strength.

Losing Del Zotto wouldn't hurt the long-term strength of our defense. McDonagh, Girardi, Staal, Stralman, McIlrath, Skjei, Noreau. And who ever we bring in later. Hopefully Barrie.

Stralman is the only offensive defensiveman out of the group. A large reason we struggle in transition play through the neutral zone is because we have nobody on the back-end to make that nice breakout pass. Trading our best-passing d-man won't help.

 

[NikC]

question

do we HAVE to exercise the buyout option july 2014 or can we wait?

 

[Avs71]

Anyone care to provide a scouting report on Ryan O'Reilly?

And what are we pitching? MDZ? Is that the latest?

Hope you don't mind me stopping by. Just thought I'd touch on a few parts of his game.

He's not the quickest skater, but he gets around well enough. He's got an odd skating stride, but it works for him. He is also very agile, especially when he is standing still (sounds funny, I know). He is really good at doing quick little spins. You will very rarely see him get hit. He moves the puck quickly and then avoids the hit, which keeps him in the play.

His shot isn't the greatest, but he has a knack for being around the net, picking up a lose puck and taking enough time to score. He just has that calmness where a loose puck is there, and he doesn't just slam it right back into the goalie. He also has a great back hand that you'll see come out in the shootout. He occasionally rips a slapshot too which he has sniped with quite a few times. If he is in a dangerous scoring area, he has a good enough shot that he will put it away.

He's got really good hands. He is not a dangler, but his puck control is impressive. He can constantly take a bad pass and not miss a stride. He uses his feet well in this sense. You also won't really see him get stripped of the puck. If he gets stick lifted, you can pretty much bet he's going to steal it back immediately.

His best asset is his mind. He defensively reads the play really well, which leads to a lot of turnovers from the opposition. He just knows where to be, and has a great stick for pokechecks and sticklifts. He has one of those motors that doesn't quit, so he just keeps going and going at the opposition. He doesn't throw big hits, but he is very strong and will close players off into the boards. He's one of those players where you will almost never think to yourself, "wtf was he thinking." He's just really smart.

Long story short, I'd say he's great at puck possession, passing, and playing defensively, which makes him a great player in the offensive zone. He really benefits his linemates in that sense. To add to that, he has good enough skating, shooting, and vision that his numbers won't be a fluke. When he first got into the NHL he had 11 points in his first 13 games. Since then he has done nothing but work his ass off to improve. He is a guy who will run the Pepsi Center stairs if the Avs lose. Nothing is good enough of for him, and that is what scares Avs fans. He works probably as hard as he physically can, so it is hard to put a limit on what he can do.

Plus, it's not like these skills came out of nowhere, "The story says opposing coaches were obviously impressed by his game too, as he finished in the top three in a trio of categories when voting was conducted for the 2009 OHL Western Conference Coaches Poll. O'Reilly was voted as the conference's "Best Penalty Killer," finished second in the "Best on Faceoffs" category and tied for third place with No. 1 overall selection John Tavares in the "Best Playmaker" voting." Just to add, Avs fans had given up on Duchene last season and would take O'Reilly over him. If you guys end up with him, you will not be disappointed.

 

[Trxjw]

Good write-up, Avs71. An informed opinion is always welcome around here!

 

[Fitzy]

do we HAVE to exercise the buyout option july 2014 or can we wait?

2014 is generous enough as it is. I was sure for awhile it was summer 2013, but RB says 2014. Andn when it comes to the cba you go with what RB said.

Its actually a good deal. It gives us Richard's 31-34 years, and strips the cap hit of his twilight years. Still, I'd prefer a better replacement than ROR.

On what AVS said, sounds like Stepan, but when I have seen ROR he has a better reach, protects the puck a bit better than Stepan.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

do we HAVE to exercise the buyout option july 2014 or can we wait?

This summer or next summer for COMPLIANCE buyouts. You can still use a normal buyout thereafter, but it has nasty cap consequences.


Something that confuses me about all this talk: people keep calling MDZ a PMD and an offensive defenseman. On the last page someone said something to the effect that he was our first true offensive defenseman since Brian Leetch.

I'm sorry, but I think this is a case of people seeing what they want to see, rather than what's there. Is he a defenseman who plays a good offensive game? Yes. Does he log the most obvious offensive minutes of any defenseman on the team (i.e. on the powerplay)? Yes.

But, when I watch him, I see a pretty good all-around defenseman who has significant strengths on both sides of the ice, but is not a world beater in either zone. With the notable exception of the stretch pass, he doesn't do anything that I don't think both Staal and McD can do as well or better.

So, while he is certainly a very good player - and has upside remaining at only 22 - I don't think in trading him we'd be giving away something unique. Again, other than that stretch pass, I personally believe either McD or Staal could step in and provide all the same skills on offense - while simultaneously playing significantly better defense. Indeed, they may both be slightly better than him on the rush.

If he WAS Karlsson or Doughty or - and I found the comparison laughable - Brian Leetch and had a unique skillset that added a dynamic on offense that we otherwise wouldn't have, I'd see the argument. But, as it is - I just don't see how our 3rd of 3 LH Dman who play similar games is unmovable for the right top 6 center (ROR or otherwise), just because he's slightly more offensively inclined than the other two...

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Hope you don't mind me stopping by. Just thought I'd touch on a few parts of his game.

He's not the quickest skater, but he gets around well enough. He's got an odd skating stride, but it works for him. He is also very agile, especially when he is standing still (sounds funny, I know). He is really good at doing quick little spins. You will very rarely see him get hit. He moves the puck quickly and then avoids the hit, which keeps him in the play.

His shot isn't the greatest, but he has a knack for being around the net, picking up a lose puck and taking enough time to score. He just has that calmness where a loose puck is there, and he doesn't just slam it right back into the goalie. He also has a great back hand that you'll see come out in the shootout. He occasionally rips a slapshot too which he has sniped with quite a few times. If he is in a dangerous scoring area, he has a good enough shot that he will put it away.

He's got really good hands. He is not a dangler, but his puck control is impressive. He can constantly take a bad pass and not miss a stride. He uses his feet well in this sense. You also won't really see him get stripped of the puck. If he gets stick lifted, you can pretty much bet he's going to steal it back immediately.

His best asset is his mind. He defensively reads the play really well, which leads to a lot of turnovers from the opposition. He just knows where to be, and has a great stick for pokechecks and sticklifts. He has one of those motors that doesn't quit, so he just keeps going and going at the opposition. He doesn't throw big hits, but he is very strong and will close players off into the boards. He's one of those players where you will almost never think to yourself, "wtf was he thinking." He's just really smart.

Long story short, I'd say he's great at puck possession, passing, and playing defensively, which makes him a great player in the offensive zone. He really benefits his linemates in that sense. To add to that, he has good enough skating, shooting, and vision that his numbers won't be a fluke. When he first got into the NHL he had 11 points in his first 13 games. Since then he has done nothing but work his ass off to improve. He is a guy who will run the Pepsi Center stairs if the Avs lose. Nothing is good enough of for him, and that is what scares Avs fans. He works probably as hard as he physically can, so it is hard to put a limit on what he can do.

Plus, it's not like these skills came out of nowhere, "The story says opposing coaches were obviously impressed by his game too, as he finished in the top three in a trio of categories when voting was conducted for the 2009 OHL Western Conference Coaches Poll. O'Reilly was voted as the conference's "Best Penalty Killer," finished second in the "Best on Faceoffs" category and tied for third place with No. 1 overall selection John Tavares in the "Best Playmaker" voting." Just to add, Avs fans had given up on Duchene last season and would take O'Reilly over him. If you guys end up with him, you will not be disappointed.

Thanks a million! Says a lot, when a guy is holding out and will probably get traded and you still see a post like this. Do you see him being a consistent 60-65 point guy in his career? We can't expect much more from Richards and he's not that great defensively.

 

[Kwayry]

Richards will be on the team next season. That gives us
Richards
Step
Miller
Lindberg/Boyle

Say Richards is bought out in 2014, but Nieves will be ready. That gives us
Step
Miller
Nieves
Lindberg /Boyle

We will be deep next season and even deeper in 2 seasons, why do we need RoR?

Another argument for the trade is: cap management.
Let's go to the numbers and dig a little deeper.
DZ is paid 2.25 M for 2 years.
RoR wants 4M per.
That's 1.75 Mil added to the cap right away.

Let's even go further into the future and assume DZ is going to ask for 4M, that will only cancel out what RoR is going to be paid.
Don't see no cap savings by trading DZ for RoR. I see a cap hit of 1.75 M short term.

Let's try the other proposal: DZ + Boyle for RoR + Barrie
2.25M + 1.7M= 3.95 M
vs
4M + 900K= 4.9M

Again an addition of 1 M to the cap.

Let's go even further into the future
Say DZ wants 4M in 2 years, But Barrie would probably get DZ's current numbers
4M + 1.7M = 5.7M
vs
4M + 2.25M = 6.25M

Another 500 K added to the cap long term.

I don't see any savings to the cap as claimed, either short term or long term.

The value of the trade is in the eye of the beholder. Objectively looking at the numbers, there is no way you can justify the trade, unless you make huge leaps of faith.
1- RoR's numbers last year were not an oulier. If they are, then the trade would look as silly as the Shattenkirk and Stewart for EJ.
2- RoR at 22, the same age as DZ, is still progressing and will be a 60+ scorer eventhough nothing in his background suggests that kind of production.
3- RoR is willing to play nice in NY and sign a bridge contract.
4- DZ has plateaued at 22 years of age and he cannot progress anymore, unlike RoR.
5- Barrie will be at least as good as DZ.

 

[mas0764]

Love how RoR is basically being made out to be the savior we must have to fix our problems.

Not a single person has made it out to be like that.

 

[mas0764]

Not buying the premise that has been put forth that ROR is going to be significantly better than MDZ to justify the trade.

If he's equal to MDZ, it's a good trade.

Rangers lack top center prospects, or top line prospects in general. The Rangers have an abundance of top-4 defensemen under 25.

 

[mas0764]

As far as depth needs for this team, it's a no-brainer. There is a much better chance they churn out another top 4 defensemen than there is they churn out a solid #1/2 C with Selke potential. Both players are at an age where you are pretty much knowing what you are going to get, aside from refining their games. They don't have to make this move, no, but they should if the price is right.

Bingo.

 

[mas0764]

FWIW, I wouldn't make the trade without having previously agreed to a deal, or at least the parameters of one, with ROR.

If I was getting close to a deal with Colorado, I would say, "Before I finalize this, I want a 72 hour negotiating window with ROR to see if I can actually reach a deal with him."

You obviously do that before agreeing to ship MDZ anywhere.

So if ROR is indeed asking for $5m per year, that could sink the deal. But the reports seem to indicate that's bogus. In any case, this exclusive negotiating period with the deal contingent on a contract being reached, would end any objections that people have to this trade based on ROR's salary demands.

 

[Kwayry]

If he's equal to MDZ, it's a good trade.

Rangers lack top center prospects, or top line prospects in general. The Rangers have an abundance of top-4 defensemen under 25.

RoR is not a top C prospect.
Rangers have only 1 consistent 40 point dman under 25, his name is Michael Del Zotto.

 

[mas0764]

A point to be made in favor of this thread. We have 3 very solid D-men under 30 that are proven (minus DZ). We have 1 proven center under 30 (unless you want to include Boyle who would be a 4th liner on good teams) and Richards looks like ****. We need a good center way more than a good D-man.

We also have two more top-4 Defenseman types in the system who aren't tremendously far off.

We have zero other top line center prospects.

 

[mas0764]

RoR is not a top C prospect.

Sure he is. He's not a John Tavares or Steven Stamkos, but he's probably comparable in quality, if he pans out as a 60-70 point player with excellent defense, to the top center on most teams in the league.

Probably better than Stepan.

The Rangers do not have a guy right now, either on the roster or in the system, who can be the #1 center if Richards is bought out. If they acquire ROR, they have that guy most likely.

Rangers have only 1 consistent 40 point dman under 25, his name is Michael Del Zotto.

So the question becomes, is it better to have a #1 center or a #4 defenseman who can score 40 points?

I'll take the top center every day of the week.

I'll prefer my top defenders to be good at defending. You can find a puck moving or offensive defenseman at the trade deadline like, every year. Finding a #1 center is much harder.

 

[bernmeister]

I don't think DZ will be traded. DZ was off the table for Nash, I highly doubt he'll be on the table for Ryan ****ing O'Reilly. But lets say we do for arguments sake.

If we acquire him, he'd probably be our second line center behind Stepan (starting next year when Richie is bought out- will be third line C this year.)

This year:

Hagelin-Stepan-Nash
Gaborik-Richards-Miller
Pyatt-O'Reilly-Callahan
Mashinter/Powe (if he can come back)-Halpern-Asham

If Kreider develops well over the course of the year and proves he's better than Miller, flip Gabby back to the RW and put Kreider on the left.

McD-G
Staal-Stralman
Gilroy-Eminger/Bickel?

You thought we rode our top 4 too hard last year/postseason...

Next year:

Hagelin-Stepan-Nash
Kreider-ROR-Gaborik
Pyatt-Miller-Callahan
Powe-insert 4th line Halpern-like player here-insert obligatory goon here

McD-G
Staal-Stralman
UFA-McIlrath

is probably what we'll see.

I think we forget how young DZ is since he's been here since he was 22. He's only one year older than Kreider, and Kreider hasn't even broken into the NHL yet. I know that the ROR crowd will say the same, but we haven't had a young offensive defensiveman really since Leetch. We'd regret trading him.

I'd much rather scope out free agency, and if we think we can get a Getzlaf-type player, buy out Richie this offseason, and if we don't, let him stick around one more year before buying him out to let JT/Boo develop.

McD-G
Staal-Stralman
MDZ-McIlrath

That's pretty. It'll be even prettier if MDZ develops any sort of a shot. It'll be gorgeous if McIlrath develops a rocket as well.

expect JT Miller AND Kreider are here to stay, since the clock is now ticking on both of them.

Both will be here, if on bottom 6 line being young will get some double shifting on higher lines to add experience.

somebody else goes.

 

[Kwayry]

Sure he is. He's not a John Tavares or Steven Stamkos, but he's probably comparable in quality, if he pans out as a 60-70 point player with excellent defense, to the top center on most teams in the league.

RoR is not a top C prospect, your statement says it all.
"If he pans out". Nothing in his background says he is, except for one good season out of 3.

The Rangers do not have a guy right now, either on the roster or in the system, who can be the #1 center if Richards is bought out. If they acquire ROR, they have that guy most likely.

You hedged again.

So the question becomes, is it better to have a #1 center or a #4 defenseman who can score 40 points?

I'll take the top center every day of the week.

The question is, is it better to have a proven 40 point dman or a likely #1 center if he pans out based on a 1 good season.
I will take the sure thing everytime.

 

[NYR Viper]

RoR is not a top C prospect, your statement says it all.
"If he pans out". Nothing in his background says he is, except for one good season out of 3.


You hedged again.



The question is, is it better to have a proven 40 point dman or a likely #1 center if he pans out based on a 1 good season.
I will take the sure thing everytime.

1) If you watched him play instead of stat surfing you would get a better idea what he is talking about

2) ROR is already a very good #2 center. So would you rather have a very good #2 center, with potential to be a very good #1 center or a top-4 defenseman who can score 40 points, with the potential to be a top-4 defenseman capable of scoring more than 40 points. MDZ Will never be a top pairing guy on this team.

 

[TheRedViper]

RoR is not a top C prospect, your statement says it all.
"If he pans out". Nothing in his background says he is, except for one good season out of 3.


You hedged again.



The question is, is it better to have a proven 40 point dman or a likely #1 center if he pans out based on a 1 good season.
I will take the sure thing everytime.

RoR has shown progression in each year in the league. Whereas MDZ had a good offensive output one year, bombed the next, then came back with a great year last year. They both had very good years last year, but what makes MDZ more proven at this point than RoR?

 

[Kwayry]

1) If you watched him play instead of stat surfing you would get a better idea what he is talking about

yup, the unquantifiable argument.
Players are paid for what they produce on the ice, that is measured by stats, whether we like it or we don't.

 

[Trxjw]

RoR is not a top C prospect.
Rangers have only 1 consistent 40 point dman under 25, his name is Michael Del Zotto.

Nice to see that the new definition of consistency is doing it once.

- Assuming ROR can replicate 55 points with elite defensive play is a "huge leap of faith".

- Assuming Del Zotto can score 40 points and play competent defense is a given because he's done it once, and therefore he's done it consistently.

Does that sound right?

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Richards will be on the team next season. That gives us
Richards
Step
Miller
Lindberg/Boyle

Say Richards is bought out in 2014, but Nieves will be ready. That gives us
Step
Miller
Nieves
Lindberg /Boyle

We will be deep next season and even deeper in 2 seasons, why do we need RoR?

Another argument for the trade is: cap management.
Let's go to the numbers and dig a little deeper.
DZ is paid 2.25 M for 2 years.
RoR wants 4M per.
That's 1.75 Mil added to the cap right away.

Let's even go further into the future and assume DZ is going to ask for 4M, that will only cancel out what RoR is going to be paid.
Don't see no cap savings by trading DZ for RoR. I see a cap hit of 1.75 M short term.

Let's try the other proposal: DZ + Boyle for RoR + Barrie
2.25M + 1.7M= 3.95 M
vs
4M + 900K= 4.9M

Again an addition of 1 M to the cap.

Let's go even further into the future
Say DZ wants 4M in 2 years, But Barrie would probably get DZ's current numbers
4M + 1.7M = 5.7M
vs
4M + 2.25M = 6.25M

Another 500 K added to the cap long term.

I don't see any savings to the cap as claimed, either short term or long term.

The value of the trade is in the eye of the beholder. Objectively looking at the numbers, there is no way you can justify the trade, unless you make huge leaps of faith.
1- RoR's numbers last year were not an oulier. If they are, then the trade would look as silly as the Shattenkirk and Stewart for EJ.
2- RoR at 22, the same age as DZ, is still progressing and will be a 60+ scorer eventhough nothing in his background suggests that kind of production.
3- RoR is willing to play nice in NY and sign a bridge contract.
4- DZ has plateaued at 22 years of age and he cannot progress anymore, unlike RoR.
5- Barrie will be at least as good as DZ.

You're banking on Miller, Nieves, and Lindberg, you've only seen one of them play and it's been what a half dozen games?