Rumor: Trade Rumor/Speculation Thread XIX: The Olympic Freeze

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

No, but I'd be thrilled if people around here learned from their mistakes for a change. If people could remember things as they were, instead of as they choose to view them based on recent events, it would improve the discussion around here tenfold.

I think this conversation is getting awfully nuanced with stuff like this.

Looking at the situation, as it is today, I think letting Callahan walk is an example of learning from mistakes. Most sane people are very appreciative of what Callahan did here and his importance. The important thing to look at here in 2014 is what Callahan can give to this team going forward.

Its pretty clear that Callahan is asking for a ton of money and his best days very well might be behind him. So, while you wax poetic about the way things were, Im pretty happy that it looks like the Rangers will make a good decision and not pay a guy based on what he did - even if that guy is captain Ryan Callahan.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

lol nice bias there.

I forgot that CHL players that aren't drafted from the 1st/2nd round never make the NHL.

No **** the chances are slim. We just happen to believe that Anthony Duclair, and a handful of us watch him, believe he will be an NHL player and a good one.

Obviously you don't watch him one bit so there's no point in debating this with you.

Watching him has very little to do with it. Are you a scout? Are you a Director of Player Development?

Neither am I. Im going on a hunch, just like everybody else. I'm sure a lot of fans "watched" Christian Dube and Daniel Goneau.

 

[Thirty One]

YYeah, that great breakout pass, that accurate point shot, and that tremendous vision all come together to make Girardi a hell of an offensive defenseman. Not to mention the blazing speed.

Yeah, I'm far more interested in his output than his inputs.

Wouldn't that ranking indicate that he's not a particularly capable offensive contributor among top pair defensemen?

I'm not sure how it would....

Jaromir Jagr, Marian Gaborik, Rick Nash. I've never said Callahan is a first line player. That doesn't make him any less valuable. I'd argue that he was a far more valuable player to this team than Marian Gaborik was.

So who did he have challenging him for top-six minutes? Seems to me that ice went uncontested, like with Girardi.

Boy, images sure do help mask hypocrisy. Let me know when you provide any evidence to support the conclusion that Ryan Callahan hasn't been a premier defensive forward in the league.

You're asking me to prove a negative?

Can you prove that there isn't a microscopic gorilla orbiting Saturn?

 

[AlternateSideParking]

Biochem/Statistics/Anthropology triple major at UMich here.

Your post makes zero statistical sense as you're forgetting one of the cardinal most basic rules of statistics.

Congrats on your triple major. I have Master's in history.

History says Duclair's chances of making it to the NHL and developing into a scorer for the New York Rangers are slim to none.

 

[RGY]

Watching him has very little to do with it. Are you a scout? Are you a Director of Player Development?

Neither am I. Im going on a hunch, just like everybody else. I'm sure a lot of fans "watched" Christian Dube and Daniel Goneau.

Not getting involved in the argument because I personally dont know much about Duclaor other than stats BUT....

GWOW, I think its unfair to compare today's world of access to back when Dube and Goneau were prospects. There is so much more access to watch video of these young amateurs on cable tv these days. So many more avenues to get a feel for a prospect. I think scouting or rather projecting is more "accurate" than even compared to Jessiman's draft year. There is just much more info and sources out there

 

[AlternateSideParking]

Not getting involved in the argument because I personally dont know much about Duclaor other than stats BUT....

GWOW, I think its unfair to compare today's world of access to back when Dube and Goneau were prospects. There is so much more access to watch video of these young amateurs on cable tv these days. So many more avenues to get a feel for a prospect. I think scouting or rather projecting is more "accurate" than even compared to Jessiman's draft year. There is just much more info and sources out there

People are missing the point. The point is that team's with outside-the-box thinkers say screw nostalgia, screw conventional wisdom, and screw public opinion.

Look at Chiarelli and Bowman. People are nuts if they think the only reason why Chicago and Boston are dominant is because of Kane/Toews and the Kessel trade.

Both GM's have unloaded prospects year in and year out to make themselves better -- prospects 10x and even 100x better than 3rd round stabs in the dark like Duclair and Grachev and Ryan Bourque.

Why is Ryan Bourque still in the organization? He was drafted years ago and he has no chance of ever making this team.

I'll never understand why fans become so possessive over every single prospect. It looks like our GM feels the same way.

Sell high. Have some balls. Think outside the box. This fan base must still be shellshocked over the Weight and Amonte trades. They think 1998-2004 was because of bad trades. It wasnt. It was because of blind loyalty and allowing the inmates to run the asylum.

Yeah. Who needed that Stanley Cup. I would much rather make the playoffs every year as a 6th seed and lose in the first or second round.

Chiarelli traded Seguin and Kessel. But No, lets hope Sather holds on to Duclair.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

Callahan in Selke Voting:

2013: 8th
2012: 4th
2011: 10th
2010: None
2009: 64th

I think he's one of the better shot blockers and PK'ers in the league but he's not a "shutdown" guy like the classic defensive forwards.

He's obviously in the top-10, so in that regard you have to consider him of of the best. I see him getting top-5 this year again as well.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

Callahan is worth a lot. Team like the Blues and the Sharks are tired of not getting to the SCF. It really bothers them. The fans are tired. The staff are tired. Lots of great regular seasons and zip in the postseason.

Shoe on the other foot. It's 1994 and your NHL-leading team just got smoked at home on national TV by the Chicago Blackhawks. You havent been to a SCF in 15 years and you havent won one in 54.

What do you do?

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Callahan is worth a lot. Team like the Blues and the Sharks are tired of not getting to the SCF. It really bothers them. The fans are tired. The staff are tired. Lots of great regular seasons and zip in the postseason.

Shoe on the other foot. It's 1994 and your NHL-leading team just got smoked at home on national TV by the Chicago Blackhawks. You havent been to a SCF in 15 years and you havent won one in 54.

What do you do?

Callahan is no golden ticket to a cup. The guy has disappeared from the scoresheet in every playoff he's ever played. 2012 included. He had that goal in game one, and then nothing. (Not literally nothing, he had a couple more goals, but very little). The guy is one of the worst culprits when it comes to disappearing in the playoffs. Right there with Stepan. Hopefully things change with a different coach.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

Callahan is no golden ticket to a cup. The guy has disappeared from the scoresheet in every playoff he's ever played. 2012 included. He had that goal in game one, and then nothing. (Not literally nothing, he had a couple more goals, but very little). The guy is one of the worst culprits when it comes to disappearing in the playoffs. Right there with Stepan. Hopefully things change with a different coach.

The other teams I mentioned are deeper. You win a Cup with depth. Adding one of the best two-way forwards in the game to an already deep team increases your chances.

 

[Thirty One]

Callahan in Selke Voting:

2013: 8th
2012: 4th
2011: 10th
2010: None
2009: 64th

I think he's one of the better shot blockers and PK'ers in the league but he's not a "shutdown" guy like the classic defensive forwards.

He's obviously in the top-10, so in that regard you have to consider him of of the best. I see him getting top-5 this year again as well.

And Girardi was 22nd and 6th in Norris voting in the past couple years. I don't think award voting is the best measure.

And I'm not arguing that Girardi has been better than Callahan (I think they've both been valuable assets over the past 3 years), though I am far less bearish about committing a long-term deal to Girardi. I do object to the "my opinion is the gospel" attitude put out there by some, however.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

And Girardi was 22nd and 6th in Norris voting in the past couple years. I don't think award voting is the best measure.

And I'm not arguing that Girardi has been better than Callahan (I think they've both been valuable assets over the past 3 years), though I am far less bearish about committing a long-term deal to Girardi. I do object to the "my opinion is the gospel" attitude put out there by some, however.

I'm dead serious when I say that both are equal in terms of where they rank among their peers. They are both extremely versatile and can play in any situation.

Both are near the top at what they do. I have a feeling 29 GMs feel the same way.

The voting isnt a good barometer for us, but it gives you an idea of how the national media respects (or disrespects) a player they don't watch as much as we do (and under the microscope Rangers fans view them through)

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I'm dead serious when I say that both are equal in terms of where they rank among their peers. They are both extremely versatile and can play in any situation.

Both are near the top at what they do. I have a feeling 29 GMs feel the same way.

The voting isnt a good barometer for us, but it gives you an idea of how the national media respects (or disrespects) a player they don't watch as much as we do (and under the microscope Rangers fans view them through)

The media tend to be sheep. You listen to the NBC telecast and you'd think Girardi is our best defenseman, if not the best in the league and Callahan never had a bad game ever.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

The other teams I mentioned are deeper. You win a Cup with depth. Adding one of the best two-way forwards in the game to an already deep team increases your chances.

Lots of things increase chances, I don't know what your point is. Teams get good players during the deadline and rarely does it ever pan out. Callahan isn't even that great.

 

[NYR Sting]

I was referring to the smugness of that picture, not the person depicted in it. Discussion of politics is prohibited on this board.

I love Callahan, I think he has all those endearing qualities you listed. I'll be happy for him when he gets paid, but I hope to [religious statement redacted] it isn't by the Rangers.

I keep posting this graphic, and will continue to until the situation is resolved:

First, you say that it is a massive exaggeration to call him one of the best defensive forwards, then you post a graphic comparing him to players that were considered among the best defensive forwards in their primes. Headscratcher.

What I'd like to see is the graph of the comparables to the free agent the Rangers will sign with the money they don't pay Callahan, and when those players started to decline.

But I'm still wondering when everyone loved the McIlrath pick...

Enough people did that I had a number of posters chastising me for daring to question the genius of Gordie Clark. All I know is Tarasenko's 18 goals would be tied for the team lead in Ranger goals, and that both he and Fowler are Olympians on powerhouse national teams. McIlrath is still a minor leaguer.

The reason people overrate Callahan is the reason they overrate Girardi (even though the latter has been the much better player for a while now). He's gritty. Players that are gritty are sort of flashy in their own little way. They stand out. A player like Stralman that is just solid doesn't get his due from the media because he just goes about his business. Callahan hits, blocks shots, and provides energy (or at least used to, doesn't do it that much the last couple of years). All 3 of those traits are important, but those are the type players that get overrated. It doesn't matter how effective a player is otherwise, if he hits and blocks shots people love him. The other trait is fighting. If a guy fights and hits, it doesn't matter if he sucks the masses will rather have him than a "soft" player who is actually better at hockey.

I don't care much for fighting, I think hitting is the most "overrated" aspect of this sport, and I wish Callahan would block less shots. I don't think any of those qualities factor much into why Callahan is a terrific player, especially defensively. Positioning, anticipation, energy, willpower, and stick checking are the qualities that make him a particularly strong player away from the puck. Don't underrate energy, or confuse it with willpower. How many players are willing to pay any price in any particular situation to make a play? How many players are smart enough and fast enough to be in the right spot, and then have the energy and the willpower to make a play happen even when the circumstances might not appear to be in their favor? Callahan breaks up plays, disrups breakouts, harasses puckhandlers in transition, and wins loose puck battles in a way that no Ranger in recent history has. He does it better than all but a handful of forwards in this league, this half season aside.

Speaking of overrated, you're the guy that likes to sound the "Lundqvist is overrated" horn, right? Figures...

Its pretty clear that Callahan is asking for a ton of money and his best days very well might be behind him. So, while you wax poetic about the way things were, Im pretty happy that it looks like the Rangers will make a good decision and not pay a guy based on what he did - even if that guy is captain Ryan Callahan.

I don't think that this is clear at all, since it is a judgment based on half a season. And I think paying a guy based on what he did is exactly what the Rangers will do. The difference is they could be paying it based on what a guy did for this team, or they could pay based on what another player did for another team.

Yeah, I'm far more interested in his output than his inputs.

When you play as many minutes as he does compared to most defensemen in the league, I don't think his offensive production is particularly impressive.

So who did he have challenging him for top-six minutes? Seems to me that ice went uncontested, like with Girardi.

No one, but that doesn't mean that Girardi is better than Callahan because one got a top pairing spot by default and another one didn't get a top line spot due to other players being in the way. The team's blueline has been deeper than the forward group as a whole. I never thought Girardi was the team's best defenseman, personally. Either Staal or McDonagh have always been superior to him. I thought Callahan was pretty clearly the team's best forward, even when Gaborik was scoring 40 goals.

You're asking me to prove a negative?

Can you prove that there isn't a microscopic gorilla orbiting Saturn?

I'm asking you to prove something. Selke voting would seem to indicate that he's one of the best defensive forwards in the league. Girardi has been in the Norris trophy top 10, even top 20, once. Callahan has been a top 10 Selke votegetter 3 times.

 

[haohmaru]

Callahan is top 10 when it comes to two way defensive forwards in the league, no question in my mind. There are better defensive forwards out there, but few that can pot 30 goals to accompany it.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

At the end of the day, the hell does it matter who has been more valuable between Girardi and Callahan over the last however many years?

The only question should be, is it a good idea to sign either to their next contract.

Factors:
How much are they asking for?
How much can they garner in a trade?
What is their injury history?
What depth do the Rangers have for their respective roles?
What will their loss mean for this season? the next 3 seasons? the next 7?
How will their loss impact the locker room / team dynamics?

 

[NYR Sting]

I do object to the "my opinion is the gospel" attitude put out there by some, however.

You mean like the guy who said that I must not have been watching the last 3 years when he disagreed with my opinion? You didn't seem to have a problem with that, only when I gave my opinion that he underrates one player and overrates another. I guess only one guy is allowed to share his opinion, and I shouldn't respond. It's not like this is a forum.

Or did my initial post about Callahan having always been better than Girardi bother you? Should I have prefaced that with "I think?" Would you find that less offensive? I kinda thought that was implied by me sharing my thoughts.

 

[LaffyTaffyNYR]

Girardi is more important to this team than Callahan is moving forward. There are many forwards available on the FA market that can give you what Callahan does. How many RHD are available that can give you 20+ minutes a night against the other team's best lines pretty much every game because the player doesn't miss a game?

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Girardi is more important to this team than Callahan is moving forward. There are many forwards available on the FA market that can give you what Callahan does. How many RHD are available that can give you 20+ minutes a night against the other team's best lines pretty much every game because the player doesn't miss a game?

I think it's pretty easy to see that Girardi is far more important than Callahan. I'm not sure how anyone could come to the opposite conclusion.

 

[Thirty One]

First, you say that it is a massive exaggeration to call him one of the best defensive forwards, then you post a graphic comparing him to players that were considered among the best defensive forwards in their primes. Headscratcher.

That wasn't the criteria for the list. I was looking for players who played a physical style, were under 6' and were prominent players in their team's offense. Incidentally I never considered Mark Parrish or Darcy Tucker to be among the league's best defensive forwards.

What I'd like to see is the graph of the comparables to the free agent the Rangers will sign with the money they don't pay Callahan, and when those players started to decline.

Would be interesting. I wouldn't anticipate that there are many players on the free agent market that will depreciate at the same rate as Callahan.

When you play as many minutes as he does compared to most defensemen in the league, I don't think his offensive production is particularly impressive.

The players immediately above or behind him played a lot of minutes too.

No one, but that doesn't mean that Girardi is better than Callahan because one got a top pairing spot by default and another one didn't get a top line spot due to other players being in the way.

Yes, but that's not close to the point I was making. You're saying Girardi is the Rangers #1 RD by default, who was challenging Callahan for #2 RW?

I'm asking you to prove something.

Yes, a negative. I can't prove it. Can you prove mine?

Selke voting would seem to indicate that he's one of the best defensive forwards in the league. Girardi has been in the Norris trophy top 10, even top 20, once. Callahan has been a top 10 Selke votegetter 3 times.

Yes, and All-Star voting indicated that Alex Ovechkin was the 2nd best LW in the league last year.

You must recognize that there is a difference between the Norris and the Selke, no? Do you think Girardi would rank higher if it rated defenseman only on "who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game"?

Or did my initial post about Callahan having always been better than Girardi bother you? Should I have prefaced that with "I think?" Would you find that less offensive? I kinda thought that was implied by me sharing my thoughts.

Hey, I'm a stickler. It's pretty easy to frame your opinions as such, IMO.

My niece wanted me to just assume that she meant to say please when she was asking for something, but I didn't do that, either.

 

[TheTakedown]

It does not matter whether or not Callahan is a good player. We know he is...

The problem is, his prime will be over by 34 at the latest. That's a 5 year deal... He wants 7, @ 7M per year to boot.

THAT's why were trading him. If we're paying someone 7M a year, it better be someone who can pot 30-40 on a regular basis for the next 5 seasons

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

My opinion on the situation is pretty well documented, so I don't want to wade too deeply into the current back-and-forth. However, there is one thing you said, Sting, that I want to address:

What I'd like to see is the graph of the comparables to the free agent the Rangers will sign with the money they don't pay Callahan, and when those players started to decline.

To me, this is a bad rationale for advocating a roster decision. I understand that Sather's track record with Drury, etc. has you jaded, but fear of what he might do this summer is no reason to make what one believes would otherwise be the wrong call here simply because it is the lesser of two (anticipated) evils. Regardless of what's happened in the past, we as fans should always be rooting for the Rangers to make the right decisions going forward, no? Perhaps Sather's has finally learned from making the same mistake over and over or perhaps (the more likely scenario to hope for) Gorton is taking a greater role in the decision making process. Either way, if we're going to debate the proper move for the team now, then it only makes sense in the context of what would be the proper move(s) later.

So, it comes down to:
1) Sign Callahan to the contract he's demanding (or something close to it).
2) Play out the season with Callahan and let him walk. Use of extra cap space (depending on new contracts for other players on the roster) TBD.
3) Trade Callahan before the deadline. Use of extra cap space (depending on what contracts come back and new contracts for other players on the roster) TBD.

In a vacuum, with John Doe as the GM, are you still advocating for 1?

 

[Cassano]

The reason people overrate Callahan is the reason they overrate Girardi (even though the latter has been the much better player for a while now). He's gritty. Players that are gritty are sort of flashy in their own little way. They stand out. A player like Stralman that is just solid doesn't get his due from the media because he just goes about his business. Callahan hits, blocks shots, and provides energy (or at least used to, doesn't do it that much the last couple of years). All 3 of those traits are important, but those are the type players that get overrated. It doesn't matter how effective a player is otherwise, if he hits and blocks shots people love him. The other trait is fighting. If a guy fights and hits, it doesn't matter if he sucks the masses will rather have him than a "soft" player who is actually better at hockey.

That's the fallacy of NA sports.

For example, search through this thread:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=948855

Multiple fans of the Rangers and even unbiased affiliates stating that Callahan is a guy you'd win in the playoffs while Kessel will disappear during crunch time.

Yeah.....

Callahan has always been overrated based on intangibles made up by his fanboys and the media. There is no way in hell he's a top 10 2-way forward, nothing to base that off of. Well you can look at Selke Votes, but wasn't Del Zotto in the top voting at one point as well? Notice how many seem to neglect that when it doesn't fit in with their argument.

 

[Chief]

Callahan has always been overrated based on intangibles made up by his fanboys and the media.

If you put up 2 polls: one for most overrated Rangers and another for most underrated Rangers, Callahan could top both polls.