Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread: Part 61

[417]

I showed previously in this thread that Tampa Bay took nearly 6 years to build their core through the draft and become seriously competitive. At the beginning, they were bottom of the barell until season 4, which landed them Hedman and Stamkos in the early stage of their rebuild. This is what happen to successful rebuilding team, they start by drafting high for around 2 years most often than not, and then goes on to try to improve the team by other venues since you can't tank for 10 years.

Yes, they drafted Stamkos 1st overall because they had a terrible year despite having some really good players (St-Louis, Lecavalier, Prospal, Richards, Boyle). They didn't artificially create a team that sucked by riding itself of all of it's talent all at once.

All of those players came back for year 1 of Stamkos except for Dan Boyle, who was traded for a few players an a 1st (that turned into Carter Ashton)...but they sucked again that year and ended up selecting Victor Hedman that year.

So they were in back to back years able to draft Stamkos & Hedman, despite not completing gutting their roster of all of their talent. There was no firesale to get there, they got there organically AND happened to draft high when elite talent WAS available.

But they all start by the first step, elite talent aquired by high draft which is a direct result of not being competitive for a short period of time to get long lasting success.

Of course their only strategy was not to suck (it never was, the ultimate goal to that was to be competitive long term), show me where someone said that the only strategy is to suck forever. It is kinda at first when you have no other option, after you drafted a part of your core you need to take some calculated risk to elevate your team. That's what Tampa Bay did, but for the 4-5 first year of their rebuild, they mainly focused on aquiring 1st round pick and making some cap room to improve for the futur, they didn't try to get competitive right away when they were amongst the worst team of the league.

The reason why this debate is going on is because someone suggested we need to miss the playoffs and suck for at least 4- years.

I'm not sure why you keep insisting that no one is suggesting to suck for an extended period of time, that was my original objection this debate lol.

 

[417]

Your stance seems to be against finishing at the bottom of the standing for a short while to aquire elite talent, and you cite Chandler Stephenson as an example of a way to build your core. What is you point then?

We suck this year and are likely going to draft in the top 5-10. That much is a given.

My objection is wanting this organization to position itself to be in the same position next year. If this team is really as rotten as they appear to be this year and they end up drafting high again next year...OK.

But i'm materially against trying to position the team to be in the same position again next year. If there are moves that can be done this year or in the offseason, to make this team better as soon as next year, they need to do it.

If you aren't suggesting that this is the way to build a core, how do you build that core if it's not by drafting high in the beginning and selling some vets for some 1st round pick, which might make us worse short term? You say you will let Gorton figure it out, others might prefer offering their point of view on a viable strategy that has been successful for a lot of Stanley Cup winner in the last decade+. You want to argue an opinion but you don't offer an alternative yourself. Maybe there isn't another one.

But suggesting that it's these successful Stanley Cup winners had success exclusively because of that (drafting high) is a misnomer...it's completely false and ignores all the other data points to focus on this. There are perennial losers who draft high every year and they have never won a Stanley Cup, never mind even compete to make the playoffs.

Clearly, there's more to it.

 

[ECWHSWI]

But i'm constantly reading that the only way to acquire talent is by sucking.

So it means something to me lol.

Sure.... Care to name the posters who are constantly saying that ?

Its good that it means something to you, thing is, it only means something to you, so the eample is shit.

 

[417]

Sure.... Care to name the posters who are constantly saying that ?

No, you have eyes...do your own work.

I mean there's a thread dedicated to tanking to draft Wright where you have posters who are visibly upset because the Habs earned a point in OT.

Maybe start there.

Its good that it means something to you, thing is, it only means something to you, so the eample is shit.

I'm comfortable with that.

 

[sampollock]

Drafting is huge, for development but with out very good scouting we see how the habs drafted poor

 

[HabsCode]

Yes, they drafted Stamkos 1st overall because they had a terrible year despite having some really good players (St-Louis, Lecavalier, Prospal, Richards, Boyle). They didn't artificially create a team that sucked by riding itself of all of it's talent all at once.

All of those players came back for year 1 of Stamkos except for Dan Boyle, who was traded for a few players an a 1st (that turned into Carter Ashton)...but they sucked again that year and ended up selecting Victor Hedman that year.

So they were in back to back years able to draft Stamkos & Hedman, despite not completing gutting their roster of all of their talent. There was no firesale to get there, they got there organically AND happened to draft high when elite talent WAS available.


The reason why this debate is going on is because someone suggested we need to miss the playoffs and suck for at least 4- years.

I'm not sure why you keep insisting that no one is suggesting to suck for an extended period of time, that was my original objection this debate lol.

Richards was traded before Stamkos, and so was Prospal.

It took them a while to depart from St.Louis and Lecavalier because A. they were either hall of fame caliber and selled tickets which is a concern in Tampa Bay (which isn't a problem in Montreal) or B. signed long term at a ridiculous cap hit(Lecavalier) at that time which made them harder to trade.

Trying activelly to sell and tank for 4 years might be pushing it, but it could happen anyway if we get rid of some bad contracts vets this season and next year, since we are already at the bottom of the standing. 2022 pick and 2023 pick won't make an impact right away, so you might still be at the bottom until 2024-2025, unless our youth really develop well enough to compete in the short term.

Chandler Stephenson isn't turning this team into a contender, they need a bigger overhaul.

 

[sampollock]

that is why I would love for Jeff to trade for prospects, he can confer with scouts on their progress and future
go get a couple studs Jeff

 

[417]

Richards was traded the year before they drafted Stamkos.. Boyle was not a core player, and he was aquired in 2014 when their core was already build.

It took them a while to depart from St.Louis and Lecavalier because A. they were either hall of fame caliber and selled tickets which is a concern in Tampa Bay (which isn't a problem in Montreal) or B. signed long term at a ridiculous cap hit(Lecavalier) at that time which made them harder to trade.

Trying activelly to sell and tank for 4 years might be pushing it, but it could happen anyway if we get rid of some bad contracts vets this season and next year, since we are already at the bottom of the standing. 2022 pick and 2023 pick won't make an impact right away, so you might still be at the bottom until 2024-2025, unless our youth really develop well enough to compete in the short term.

It's a ridiculous proposition and no one here really would have the patience for.

Chandler Stephenson isn't turning this team into a contender, they need a bigger overhaul.

OMG, no one said he was...it was an example of a value trade that this team needs to also consider.

There are a lot of players who are underused/undervalued on teams who can absolutely become part of this team turning itself into a contender. To ignore those opportunities just to focus on a potential lottery winning ticket that's 2 years away from maybe being won and another 4-5 years away from making a true impact on your team is a terrible strategy to exclusively focus on.

 

[ECWHSWI]

No, you have eyes...do your own work.

I mean there's a thread dedicated to tanking to draft Wright where you have posters who are visibly upset because the Habs earned a point in OT.

Maybe start there.

I'm comfortable with that.

Aaaaaah the good old 'look for yourself', wich we all know it only means I cant name anyone cause ive never seen anyone say something like it.

Ffs stop playing don Quichotte mate! Lol

 

[417]

Aaaaaah the good old 'look for yourself', wich we all know it only means I cant name anyone cause ive never seen anyone say something like it.

Nah, it literally means I don't work for you and if you're looking for something your ass should go out and find it yourself.

You're essentially suggesting that i'm seeing and responding to ghosts. I have no desire to indulge your own illusions about me.

Ffs stop playing don Quichotte mate! Lol

Whatever that means...I'm having a grown folk discussion with someone else on the topic. Run along.

 

[Schooner Guy]

Yes, they drafted Stamkos 1st overall because they had a terrible year despite having some really good players (St-Louis, Lecavalier, Prospal, Richards, Boyle). They didn't artificially create a team that sucked by riding itself of all of it's talent all at once.

All of those players came back for year 1 of Stamkos except for Dan Boyle, who was traded for a few players an a 1st (that turned into Carter Ashton)...but they sucked again that year and ended up selecting Victor Hedman that year.

So they were in back to back years able to draft Stamkos & Hedman, despite not completing gutting their roster of all of their talent. There was no firesale to get there, they got there organically AND happened to draft high when elite talent WAS available.


The reason why this debate is going on is because someone suggested we need to miss the playoffs and suck for at least 4- years.

I'm not sure why you keep insisting that no one is suggesting to suck for an extended period of time, that was my original objection this debate lol.

TB also won one of their two recent Cups without Stamkos and he was a secondary player in the other. Kucherov (late-2nd round) and Point (3rd round) were the impact forwards who carried them to the Cup. Like you said, they didn't need to gut their team to get there. It was done by good drafting, good trades and signings.

 

[417]

TB also won one of their two recent Cups without Stamkos and he was a secondary player in the other. Kucherov (late-2nd round) and Point (3rd round) were the impact forwards who carried them to the Cup. Like you said, they didn't need to gut their team to get there. It was done by good drafting, good trades and signings.

Imagine trying to pare down the Tampa Bay Lightning's success the last few years exclusively to drafting high.

 

[HabsCode]

It's a ridiculous proposition and no one here really would have the patience for.


OMG, no one said he was...it was an example of a value trade that this team needs to also consider.

There are a lot of players who are underused/undervalued on teams who can absolutely become part of this team turning itself into a contender. To ignore those opportunities just to focus on a potential lottery winning ticket that's 2 years away from maybe being won and another 4-5 years away from making a true impact on your team is a terrible strategy to exclusively focus on.

I'm gonna agree with you on the fact that actively trying to tank for 4 years is ridiculous, but being at the bottom for 3-4 seasons straight happened to Chicago, Pittsburgh and Tampa Bay before they became champions. Being this bad for this long is a side effect of rebuilding and clearing some vets.

I would accept being this reality and so a lot of people would, if it meant winning a couple of stanley cup in the futur. It might not always work (see Buffalo and Edmonton, Toronto are still early to tell). But it's what worked for those cup winning team.

You don't go from bottom two of the league to serious cup contender in 2 years. It's not happening.

 

[calder candidate]

Again, i'm not sure what any of this has to do with my point.

Yes, it's not ideal if he's your #1C, I think that was clear as day when we played them in the semis last year (though he was injured and was clearly missed). Also, I think he's a better player than Karlsson right now, so I think he'll fit in quite nicely as the #2 behind Eichel. You're really underrating how good of a player he is.

Once more, the point wasn't to get into a semantics debate about if he's a #1, #2 or #3 center. It was more to highlight that there are multiple ways to provide value to a franchise and using tunnel vision (focusing solely on drafting high, which YES, many people have said) is not an effective way of building a contender.

There is multiple way to provide value, but their aren't multiple ways to build a contender...
What are the odd of trading a 5th rd pick for a 25-26yo who was drafted in the 3rd rd and hadn't shown any significant production and that player breakout into a top 6 player (I don't believe Stephenson is a impact player, just like I didn't beleive Karlson was a legit 40g scorer... (he is under rated but that isn't the point).
How many top 6 Fw/ top 4 D/ #1 golaie were acquired by trade for so little value or asset like a 5th rd pick? I said there a lot more luck involded in that kinda trade than drafting in the top 10 and there is no way to do this 11-15 times to build a team. Vs. the next 2 draft could land us 4 legit player

This team isn't trying to lose, this is the best team we can ice and it can't win game even less win cups, and it unlikely that it will improve as is (also wasn't good in the prior years regardless of playoffs runs)... There probably wasn't a single cup winner that wasn't build with the draft, they might have added piece with trade or UFA but they did it knowing that they had other player already in place. We need to draft, we need to win trade, we need good signning and good waiver pick up but the only way to improve that doesn't rely on other screwing up is drafting. No one beleive that drafting is the only way to improve but it is the biggest and 1st step in the process. You aren't building a cup winner on Stephenson...

 

[ECWHSWI]

Nah, it literally means I don't work for you and if you're looking for something your ass should go out and find it yourself.

You're essentially suggesting that i'm seeing and responding to ghosts. I have no desire to indulge your own illusions about me.


Whatever that means...I'm having a grown folk discussion with someone else on the topic. Run along.

I dont need to look for myself, its pretty clear, you say pretty much saying the same thing to the people you talk tout, wich is that other people are saying whatever...

So yeah, were not having a Grown up discussion you and me, If you want one though, drop the ghosts.

 

[417]

I'm gonna agree with you on the fact that actively trying to tank for 4 years is ridiculous, but being at the bottom for 3-4 seasons straight happened to Chicago, Pittsburgh and Tampa Bay before they became champions. Being this bad for this long is a side effect of rebuilding and clearing some vets.

Chicago & Pittsburgh had some ownership issues, they wanted to be at the bottom for multiple years because they didn't want to spend money on player salary.

Tampa Bay, ever since Jeffrey Vinik came there, things have been different, they only had 2 seasons where they missed the playoffs (2011-12 & 2012-13) when they went from Boucher to John Cooper.

These are exceptions, I don't think this applies to the Montreal Canadiens. They're never going to take the "lean" approach when it comes to spending an player salaries. Not gonna happen.

I would accept being this reality and so a lot of people would, if it meant winning a couple of stanley cup in the futur. It might not always work (see Buffalo and Edmonton, Toronto are still early to tell). But it's what worked for those cup winning team.

Again, there's alot more that went into those teams success than just being at the bottom of the standings...that was the easy part.

You don't go from bottom two of the league to serious cup contender in 2 years. It's not happening.

Never said it would...but there's no reason why this team shouldn't be in a position to be a playoff team or at the very least, competing for the playoffs 2 years from now.

Like you said and I've said before, there are steps to being a contender...it's perfectly reasonable, given where we are today, to expect and to want this team to be a playoff team in 2 years.

 

[HabsCode]

Imagine trying to pare down the Tampa Bay Lightning's success the last few years exclusively to drafting high.

Tampa Bay aquired a Norris winner and a Conne-Smyth winner the year they won the cup, plus their captain who is over PPG career wise via those high draft pick.

On top of that, they aquired 3 first round pick via trade between 2009-2014, traded HHOF St.Louis, bought out Lecavalier, traded Richards, traded Prospal.

Imagine trying to denying that they opted for a long term vision of things and focused on the draft to build their team instead of going for the short term satisfaction while they still had Lecavalier and St.Louis on the team to try to remain competitive.

 

[417]

There is multiple way to provide value, but their aren't multiple ways to build a contender...
What are the odd of trading a 5th rd pick for a 25-26yo who was drafted in the 3rd rd and hadn't shown any significant production and that player breakout into a top 6 player (I don't believe Stephenson is a impact player, just like I didn't beleive Karlson was a legit 40g scorer... (he is under rated but that isn't the point).
How many top 6 Fw/ top 4 D/ #1 golaie were acquired by trade for so little value or asset like a 5th rd pick? I said there a lot more luck involded in that kinda trade than drafting in the top 10 and there is no way to do this 11-15 times to build a team. Vs. the next 2 draft could land us 4 legit player

I think there are constants with contending teams

- Scouting which IMO, is more important than the drafting itself.
- Development
- Smart trades/UFA signings

I couldn't careless where this team drafts...1st overall 5th overall or 12th.

This team isn't trying to lose, this is the best team we can ice and it can't win game even less win cups, and it unlikely that it will improve as is (also wasn't good in the prior years regardless of playoffs runs)... There probably wasn't a single cup winner that wasn't build with the draft, they might have added piece with trade or UFA but they did it knowing that they had other player already in place. We need to draft, we need to win trade, we need good signning and good waiver pick up but the only way to improve that doesn't rely on other screwing up is drafting. No one beleive that drafting is the only way to improve but it is the biggest and 1st step in the process. You aren't building a cup winner on Stephenson...

I'm going to ignore this because i'm sick of repeating myself.

 

[417]

I dont need to look for myself, its pretty clear, you say pretty much saying the same thing to the people you talk tout, wich is that other people are saying whatever...

Then the **** you want then? I didn't @ you...

So yeah, were not having a Grown up discussion you and me, If you want one though, drop the ghosts.

See previous gif.

 

[HabsCode]

Like you said and I've said before, there are steps to being a contender...it's perfectly reasonable, given where we are today, to expect and to want this team to be a playoff team in 2 years.

Yes it is, but it might not happen if the Habs go for a complete rebuild, which they haven't done in the last 30 years plus. Not being a playoff team in 2 years wouldn't be the end of the world, if it meant slowly but surely building a solid core through high draft pick.

Beside, Bedard or Michkov might make this team competitive in two year of this rebuild (2023-2024). Look at the Crosby and Malkin effect on Pittsburgh (not making comparaison, but this is the effect elite talent can have on your team). Trying to aquire a diamond in the rough with a fifth round pick that gonna turn this team into a playoff contender, let alone a serious cup contender, is a lot less likely.

 

[417]

Tampa Bay aquired a Norris winner and a Conne-Smyth winner the year they won the cup, plus their captain who is over PPG career wise via those high draft pick.

So Kucherov, Point, McDonagh, Vasilevski, Sergachev, Cirelli, Killorn, Johnson etc...

All these guys were just along for the ride? lol

OK got it.

On top of that, they aquired 3 first round pick via trade between 2009-2014, traded HHOF St.Louis, bought out Lecavalier, traded Richards, traded Prospal.

I'm all for acquiring picks. No argument from me there.

Imagine trying to denying that they opted for a long term vision of things and focused on the draft to build their team instead of going for the short term satisfaction while they still had Lecavalier and St.Louis on the team to try to remain competitive.

Not sure who you're talking too here, that ain't me.

I'm not the one focused on just them drafting Stamkos & Hedman...I know it took a lot more than just having both of those players to become the team they are today.

 

[417]

Yes it is, but it might not happen if the Habs go for a complete rebuild, which they haven't done in the last 30 years plus. Not being a playoff team in 2 years wouldn't be the end of the world, if it meant slowly but surely building a solid core through high draft pick.

Firstly, I don't think the Habs are going scorched-earth so I don't expect this bottoming out to last very long. Again, if you told me the Habs will make the playoffs next year, I wouldn't be shocked in the least.

Secondly, I agree it wouldn't be the end of the world....I just don't think it's necessary, for this team.

Beside, Bedard or Michkov might make this team competitive in two year of this rebuild (2023-2024). Look at the Crosby and Malkin effect on Pittsburgh (not making comparaison, but this is the effect elite talent can have on your team).

I'll be ready to talk Bedard or Michkov if the Habs are in the same position this time next year.

Trying to aquire a diamond in the rough with a fifth round pick that gonna turn this team into a playoff contender is a lot less likely.

Can you please stop making this point, I never said this...we're having a good discussion, there's no need to keep framing my thoughts in a way I didn't present it.

 

[HabsCode]

So Kucherov, Point, McDonagh, Vasilevski, Sergachev, Cirelli, Killorn, Johnson etc...

All these guys were just along for the ride? lol

OK got it.


I'm all for acquiring picks. No argument from me there.


Not sure who you're talking too here, that ain't me.

I'm not the one focused on just them drafting Stamkos & Hedman...I know it took a lot more than just having both of those players to become the team they are today.

I'm not focusing solely on Stamkos and Hedman or ignoring the other players, I'm saying they were strugging for the most part from 2008 to 2014 except for one season they finished near bottom for most of these season, drafted high, got rids of vets despite the fact that they could have still cashed on them for a couple of season to remain competitive, and prefered aquiring 1st round pick in the process. Which is what I'm advocating.

They don't have the success like they did (president trophy and cups) without both Hedman and even 900 points player Stamkos played his part.

Sergachev was aquired via trading their recent 3rd overall pick, not happening if they don't finish at the bottom of the league .

Cirelli was aquired by a pick they got in a trade for HHOF Martin St.Louis. And they had just recently bought out Lecavalier.

Vasilevski was drafted with Detroit first round pick aquired via trade.

This debate is never going to end. The point is that they got rid of vets and drafted high at the beginning, and focused on aquiring more first round pick to build their core instead of trying to become competitive in the short term.

 

[HabsCode]

Can you please stop making this point, I never said this...we're having a good discussion, there's no need to keep framing my thoughts in a way I didn't present it.

I will stop refering to Chandler Stephenson, the point I'm trying to make is aquiring solid player via bargain trade can't be efficient alone to rebuild this team. High draft power in the beginning stage of this rebuild is needed. Be it 1-2 season or 3-4 season there is no way to know, since we don't know what the youth is capable of.

 

[417]

I'm not focusing solely on Stamkos and Hedman or ignoring the other players, I'm saying they were strugging for the most part from 2008 to 2014 except for one season finish near bottom for most of these season, drafted high, got rids of vets despite the fact that they could have still cashed on them for a couple of season to remain competitive, and prefered aquiring 1st round pick in the process. Which is what I'm advocating.

Not really...they had some ownership issues that affected things right up until 2010, when Jefferey Vinik joined.

Since then, losing has never been acceptable in Tampa Bay and that's why the standards are so high today.

They don't have the success like they did (president trophy and cups) without both Hedman and even 900 points player Stamkos played his part.

Let's remember they won a Cup without Stamkos...Hedman is the best Dman in the NHL and I realize he was acquired via the draft #2 overall.

Sergachev was aquired via trading their recent 3rd overall pick, not happening if they don't finish at the bottom of the league .

Cirelli was aquired by a pick they got in a trade for HHOF Martin St.Louis. And they had just recently bought out Lecavalier.

Vasilevski was drafted with Detroit first round pick aquired via trade.



This debate is never going to end. The point is that they got rid of vets and drafted high at the beginning, and focused on aquiring more first round pick to build their core instead of trying to become competitive in the short term.

That's like saying the Montreal Canadiens 70s dynasties is because they made a trade to acquire the 1st overall pick which turned into Guy Lafleur in 1971.

I mean ok...sure. If we want to be brief.