HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #88: 2024 Off-Season Thread

[ReHabs]

Disagreeing with someone is fine. Misrepresenting what they say is not.

Suggesting I ran away from a discussion is BS, but you keep shovelling anyway. Some would call that misrepresenting, I just call it BS from a stubborn commentator. Many such cases online. Move on.

 

[ReHabs]

There have been alot of ifs associated with him for the last few years. I'm not a fan of his game... and definitely not a fan when he doesn't have the puck on his stick.

The discussion assumes that Laine is available for a cheap deal. Since Cap Space cannot be utilized and is just wasted if unused, people feel the on-ice upside is worth the overall downside risk.

Id prefer to keep the cap space. Maybe a better a opportunity or two comes available in the next year or so, and you will be better positioned to pounce on more reliable assets.

Maybe so — I don’t particularly love Laine, I’m in the “we should get a good player for the top6” camp. Any good player. Hughes tried to get Marchessault, I think it gives us an indication that he’s in the same camp.

We have various options ahead of us on this topic and I think it would be a missed opportunity to not strengthen our bad top6 and weak goal-scoring depth overall. This team won’t make big progress without injections of talent.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That's kind of an unfair question to ask. Since none of us know how Laine or any player we add. Will increase the teams chances of winning the Cup.

I'm not suggesting we can know. Obviously we can't.

I'm simply saying that's the mindset we should have. We should be singularly focused on building a cup winner. That means no shortcuts, no 'let's get into 8th this season' type moves.

Some may say that this gets us closer to a cup. I don't think it does.

Adding Laine may just help us reach 8th in the short term. He may also work out and become a long term solution for our team. Or he may curl up in the fetal position, sucking his thumb. From the mass pressure of playing in Montreal.

Which IMO is way overblown. I've been around players, both super stars and average ones for years. To quote Mitch Marner, they're all treated like Gods. I've never seen a fan come up to a player and start bad mouthing them like some of the key board warriors here do. Sure they'll bug them for a picture or an autograph. But the majority of the time, they give them a simple nod. Or yell out something positive. Gally for example, hated here by some on HFB. Yet loved in person on the streets of Montreal.
We really haven't heard a player boo'd during a game, since Brisebois. As for the local and social media outlets. Most of the players don't pay attention to any of that. Or atleast they shouldn't. Sorry, for going a little OT from this post I"m replying too. I've just seen many state that due to Laine's mental health. Montreal would be the last place he should play. I disagree.

Again, we can't know how it would play out. But there's baggage there. Yes, hockey players are treated like Gods - when it goes well. We've also heard from Carey Price (future HOFer) say that there were times where he didn't want to go to a grocery store.

Not everyone can play in a market like Montreal. I won't sit here and say Laine can't do it - maybe he can - but it's something that we have to factor in.

1. Amass top picks and prospects - (Yes we've done that)
2. Develop those prospects - (Yes we've done that and are still in the process of doing that.
3. Add pieces as you become a contender

This 3rd one is where we disagree. We're not in the beginning of our rebuild anymore. Now is the time when we should be adding pieces, since you never know when they'll become available. I was a little confused that you would want to wait. I think it's more you're not a Laine fan. Since you've mentioned several times, that you'd be okay with a more physical type of top 6 player.

I don't see the hurry. This season we can evaluate what we have and develop.

Again though, I'm not wholly opposed to a move. Go ahead if one's available that makes sense. Adding depth is fine. Improving anywhere is fine... if it's in line with your goal.

Also I don't consider adding Laine to be a short cut. Adding Stamkos, Perron etc, those are moves that I considered to be a short cut. Laine, if he works, could be a long term solution to the team. Something none of the older players could potentially provide. Which is why I"m glad we didn't add any of them.

I won't go into detail, as many others have already said this. Adding Laine or a player of your choice. Will not hold back Roy or any other of our young prospect forwards. If Laine sucks, they'll get a chance right away. If he doesn't, then those young prospects will have to work harder. Also add in injuries, which seem to happen a lot with our team lol

I think people are thinking about Laine when he broke into the league full of promise. That's not him anymore. He's coming off shoulder surgery... big contract. I just think we can look elsehwere if we want to do that.

Also, I"m curious. For you and those of you who feel Roy is ready to step into a top 6 role right away. What's stopping Roy from becoming the next RHP? Both did quite well during meaningless games at the end of the season, for a short period of time. You could also say that RHP did better than Roy (two seasons ago), over a longer period of time. Only to come crashing back to earth last season.

Much better track record. Much better player.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Suggesting I ran away from a discussion is BS, but you keep shovelling anyway.

You didn't answer a straightforward quesiton. It is not BS. You ran away from it.

Some would call that misrepresenting,

And they would be wrong.

You are not honest in how you debate. You make a statement and when challenged don't back it up. Then you come out with strawman BS. That's why you are not taken seriously as a poster here.

 

[JianYang]

And the two seasons prior to last he had 22 and 26 goals in 50+ games.

In 21-22 he had more goals than any hab, and in 22-23 his 22 goals would have been second in goals. Yeah, Habs don’t need any of that, lol.

I'm interested in building a winning formula, so benchmarking goals scored with those particular canadiens teams is not really relevant.

The Habs need alot of things, but cap dollars are scarce too, and betting on Laine for the next couple years (which is by no means a reliable bet) also comes with opportunity cost when another opportunity may present itself with less cap flexibility.

 

[Habby4Life]

McG is a more prestigious prospect, and especially so if you take their ages into account. You couldn’t trade Roy for McG 1-for-1. McG is a “playoff style” player, highly coveted for his upside.

But my point isn’t to put Roy down, it’s to poke at the BS argument that we shouldn’t acquire any scoring depth “in order to develop” Roy’s game. That’s typical Habs losing obsessed miserly thinking.

Good teams horse-trade and try to ice the best possible team. Crap teams train their fans to expect nothing and be happy with even less.

We were a bottom6 team in Goals For and have a top6 that consists (generously) of five players. I want another piece there — and so does Hughes, he said as much and we know he pursued Marchessault on a shorter term deal.

And if we do acquire McG and he does turn out to be interesting and helpful? We can always trade away Newhook or Dach or Roy or Caufield. What’s the problem?


Should be noted Laine was PPG in the two seasons preceding last one (and on a bad team).

Should also be noted we didn’t have a single PPG player in any of the past three seasons.

Scoring has gone up like crazy the last two years, if Laine was healthy he would’ve feasted. I don’t think it’s relevant to be concerned about his skating speed — he is 26 and signed for two more years.

laine would easily make the top six better. Right now they only have NS, CC, Slaf and Dach as legit top 6 guys, and Dach is a serious question mark.

Newhook and Roy aren’t top 6 material just yet and may never be. If these two are in the top 6, they are a mediocre team.

The idea Laine doesn’t make this team significantly better is laughable. Forget last year, his two prior shortened seasons he would have led the habs in goals in one, and second in the other. Yeah, MTL doesn’t need that, lol.

 

[Habby4Life]

I'm interested in building a winning formula, so benchmarking goals scored with those particular canadiens teams is not really relevant.

The Habs need alot of things, but cap dollars are scarce too, and betting on Laine for the next couple years (which is by no means a reliable bet) also comes with opportunity cost when another opportunity may present itself with less cap flexibility.

Benchmarking, lol. This team is starving for goals which he has proven he can do. No better opportunity than a 26 yr old with his ability.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

you nailed it.

There is

laine would easily make the top six better. Right now they only have NS, CC, Slaf and Dach as legit top 6 guys, and Dach is a serious question mark.

Newhook and Roy aren’t top 6 material just yet and may never be. If these two are in the top 6, they are a mediocre team.

Goes back to what I asked you earlier. What does a top six look like to you? Is a 50 point player a second liner? I'd say it is. Newhook should be good for that.

And YES we're a mediocre team. Exactly as expected. But we won't be medicore down the road.

The idea Laine doesn’t make this team significantly better is laughable. Forget last year, his two prior shortened seasons he would have led the habs in goals in one, and second in the other. Yeah, MTL doesn’t need that, lol.

Those teams were horrible and injury riddled. It wouldn't be hard to improve on them.

Again, shoulder surgery and big contract. Does he make the team better? Sure. He adds depth and might even regain his touch if he's healthy. But that's a longshot considering the surgery.

Evander Kaine would make us better too. Should we go get him? No.

 

[ReHabs]

You didn't answer a straightforward quesiton. It is not BS. You ran away from it.

Demanding someone to make a point prediction is not a straightforward question. It’s childish guessing and even so, I tried to answer it as best I could. You ran off even though I simplified the arguments for you.

Move on fella, you’re not always right.

 

[Guess]

The question we should ask with every move is this: Does this move help us get closer to a cup? That's it. If it helps us get to 8th in the short term but does nothing for us longterm, then don't do it. We have to be single minded in our objective.

The way you get there (a repeatable proven way)

1. Amass top picks and prospects
2. Develop those prospects
3. Add pieces as you become a contender

That's it. Don't bother with shortcuts. Don't bother with getting a player who will improve you in the short term. Make sure you give ice time and strong linemates to your prospects.

I don't think we necessarily have to be a contender before management starts picking up players. I think we can still be a borderline playoff team, and as long as a bunch of important prospects have made big steps forward in the roles we define for them, that's when I think management will start picking up players.

 

[ReHabs]

Evander Kaine would make us better too. Should we go get him? No.

Also you: Let’s not get Laine, let’s get a power forward instead.

Also you: Rutger McGroarty and Evander Kane should not be acquired by us.

Also you: Our top6 is fine and we shouldn’t take shortcuts (?) it doesn’t need any additions to compete for Joshua Roy’s ice time

Okay man, leave the trade talk to those who want to talk about acquiring players. You made your point!

 

[Guess]

I think picking up Laine would be a great move, if management believes they can get him on the right track. Hughes once said GMs always buy high and sell low. Right now, Laine's value is really low, we can afford his cap hit, and if in the end we don't want to keep him, if he's improved with us he will have more value in a re-trade.

The only player that logically makes sense to play in the top 6 right now out of the prospects is Joshua Roy, and if we get any injuries in our top 6, we're screwed. We don't want to keep bringing up players from the AHL when they're not ready, let them simmer and develop there.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Demanding someone to make a point prediction is not a straightforward question. It’s childish guessing and even so, I tried to answer it as best I could. You ran off even though I simplified the arguments for you.

It's as straightfoward as it gets.

Move on fella, you’re not always right.

Right, wrong... meh. I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again. Might be wrong on Laine. But that's fine.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Also you: Let’s not get Laine, let’s get a power forward instead.

Also you: Rutger McGroarty and Evander Kane should not be acquired by us.

Also you: Our top6 is fine and we shouldn’t take shortcuts (?) it doesn’t need any additions to compete for Joshua Roy’s ice time

Okay man, leave the trade talk to those who want to talk about acquiring players. You made your point!

I'm fine to get any player at the right cost.

That doesn't mean we NEED to get somebody. It doesnt' mean what we have is shit.

 

[Habby4Life]

Goes back to what I asked you earlier. What does a top six look like to you? Is a 50 point player a second liner? I'd say it is. Newhook should be good for that.

And YES we're a mediocre team. Exactly as expected. But we won't be medicore down the road.

Those teams were horrible and injury riddled. It wouldn't be hard to improve on them.

Again, shoulder surgery and big contract. Does he make the team better? Sure. He adds depth and might even regain his touch if he's healthy. But that's a longshot considering the surgery.

Evander Kaine would make us better too. Should we go get him? No.

Longshot - why? His surgery, shit none of us are privy to what he had done or what his expected outcome is. If their Drs (MTL) clear him then so be it.

As far as second line, Drouin just potted 56, is he second liner on any decent cup contender? In your world he is, in mine he ain’t. Newhook and Roy are third line guys until they prove otherwise.

Like I said, if those guys are in your top 6, the top 6 is pretty weak.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Longshot - why? His surgery, shit none of us are privy to what he had done or what his expected outcome is. If their Drs (MTL) clear him then so be it.

8.5 million on a guy with shoulder surgery. I just think there are other ways we can go.

As far as second line, Drouin just potted 56, is he second liner on any decent cup contender? In your world he is, in mine he ain’t. Newhook and Roy are third line guys until they prove otherwise.

Rob Brown scored 49 goals with Mario Lemieux.

No, Drouin's not a top six.

Dach is. Newhook is. They won't need Mario Lemieux or Nathan Mackinnon to put up 50 plus points. Just need to stay healthy.

Like I said, if those guys are in your top 6, the top 6 is pretty weak.

50 point players on your second is fine. Right in line with what you should expect from secondary scorers.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Longshot - why? His surgery, shit none of us are privy to what he had done or what his expected outcome is. If their Drs (MTL) clear him then so be it.

As far as second line, Drouin just potted 56, is he second liner on any decent cup contender? In your world he is, in mine he ain’t. Newhook and Roy are third line guys until they prove otherwise.

Like I said, if those guys are in your top 6, the top 6 is pretty weak.

Drouin also 50 points on a mediocre team with us while being complete ass. Also playing with Mackinnon and Makar sure helps boosting ur point. Still the type of player u just sit in the playoffs because hes useless when he's not feeding the puck

 

[Habby4Life]

8.5 million on a guy with shoulder surgery. I just think there are other ways we can go.

Rob Brown scored 49 goals with Mario Lemieux.

No, Drouin's not a top six.

Dach is. Newhook is. They won't need Mario Lemieux or Nathan Mackinnon to put up 50 plus points.

50 point players on your second is fine. Right in line with what you should expect from secondary scorers.

Newhook is, in what world? Man the bar is pretty low, lol. Dach might be if he actually plays.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Newhook is, in what world? Man the bar is pretty low, lol. Dach might be if he actually plays.

34 points in 55 games.

Paced for 50 over 82 last year. Got hurt right when he was getting hot. Was hot at the end of the year. 22 years old...

If he's with Dach for 82, he'll get 50 plus.

 

[ReHabs]

I'm fine to get any player at the right cost.

The discussion always assumes PLD, Laine, etc are available at the right cost because we are not competing yet. But you knew that already. Notice how everybody says the same thing and you’ve constantly ignored it?

That doesn't mean we NEED to get somebody. It doesnt' mean what we have is shit.

It’s a difference of perspective, some are more attached and comfortable with losing (to win later) than others.

I’m virulently opposed to tanking for tanking’s sake and would be devastated to see the Habs turn into the Sabres or Senators. I want to escape losing team orbit asap and as a priority. Adding scoring depth with high upside (50+ pts) seems like a simple way to improve the team.

I think a good GM can do much better with the current AUM than Bergevin did with the assets he had under his management. We shouldn’t think there’s some critical mass of talent that, once amassed, ensures success. Doesn’t work that way.

Regardless — you’re also opposed to acquiring E Kane and McGroarty. And didn’t want to swap Matheson or Guhle out either. Your underlying point is to stay the course. It’s not very fun conversation in July, in a trade proposal thread, hope you realize this.

 

[Habby4Life]

Drouin also 50 points on a mediocre team with us while being complete ass. Also playing with Mackinnon and Makar sure helps boosting ur point. Still the type of player u just sit in the playoffs because hes useless when he's not feeding the puck

My point exactly, he got 56 with the Avs and 50 with the shitty habs team. Just because he put up 50 doesn’t mean he’s top 6, more to the game than just points.

Newhook and Roy aren’t top six just yet, and may never be.

 

[Habs10Habs]

I'm not suggesting we can know. Obviously we can't.

I'm simply saying that's the mindset we should have. We should be singularly focused on building a cup winner. That means no shortcuts, no 'let's get into 8th this season' type moves.

See again, that's where we disagree. Laine gives us the "potential" of adding a long term solution to our goal of building a cup winner. If the rumours are true, HuGo was looking to add to the teams top 6, through UFA. Which in my humble opinion, shows me he's not quite as confident in our top 6 as you are.

Again, we can't know how it would play out. But there's baggage there. Yes, hockey players are treated like Gods - when it goes well. We've also heard from Carey Price (future HOFer) say that there were times where he didn't want to go to a grocery store.

Not everyone can play in a market like Montreal. I won't sit here and say Laine can't do it - maybe he can - but it's something that we have to factor in.

True, which is why I'd hope HuGo and the coaching staff is able to sit down with Laine.

I don't see the hurry. This season we can evaluate what we have and develop.

Again though, I'm not wholly opposed to a move. Go ahead if one's available that makes sense. Adding depth is fine. Improving anywhere is fine... if it's in line with your goal.

See that is what you would do. The impression I'm getting from hearing Hughes and Gorton talk. Points me in another direction. I don't think what we see now. Is what we'll get once the season starts.

I think people are thinking about Laine when he broke into the league full of promise. That's not him anymore. He's coming off shoulder surgery... big contract. I just think we can look elsehwere if we want to do that.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm sure there are some that feel that way. Personally I feel he can be a much better player than what he's shown these last few seasons. Though I will admit, his injuries are a concern. The salary on the other hand. Doesn't concern me for the next two seasons. I wouldn't be against that either. I just think that due too availability and cost to obtain him. Laine just makes more sense than the other we've heard are rumoured to be available.

Much better track record. Much better player.

Roy put up better stats in the Q.
RHP put up better stats in the AHL and NHL.

Neither one of them really stood out from the other.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The discussion always assumes PLD, Laine, etc are available at the right cost because we are not competing yet. But you knew that already. Notice how everybody says the same thing and you’ve constantly ignored it?

They aren't players I'd go after. PLD has proven me right. We'll see on Laine.

It’s a difference of perspective, some are more attached and comfortable with losing (to win later) than others.

I’m virulently opposed to tanking for tanking’s sake and would be devastated to see the Habs turn into the Sabres or Senators. I want to escape losing team orbit asap and as a priority. Adding scoring depth with high upside (50+ pts) seems like a simple way to improve the team.

I think a good GM can do much better with the current AUM than Bergevin did with the assets he had under his management. We shouldn’t think there’s some critical mass of talent that, once amassed, ensures success. Doesn’t work that way.

Regardless — you’re also opposed to acquiring E Kane and McGroarty. And didn’t want to swap Matheson or Guhle out either. Your underlying point is to stay the course. It’s not very fun conversation in July, in a trade proposal thread, hope you realize this.

Nobody said we should tank for tanking's sake... again another strawman.

Go take this debate up with somebody else. I'm done with this.

 

[Habby4Life]

Paced for 50 over 82 last year. Got hurt right when he was getting hot. Was hot at the end of the year. 22 years old...

If he's with Dach for 82, he'll get 50 plus.

Pace, lol.

Even if he does get 50 doesn’t mean he is legit top 6 guy. Maybe on a shitty team like the habs but not on any relevant team.

 

[ReHabs]

I'm done with this.

If only