HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #88: 2024-25 Season

[Sorinth]

Dobson for Habs 1st? Is that even enough?

Perhaps in the summer, but right now if we trade for Dobson then the pick immediatly becomes less valuable because we will start winning more games.

 

[The Great Weal]

In your first post you literally say Dach can become the team's best player.

Anyone can become this team's best player. Hage could become our best player. Fowler could become our best player. Slaf could become our best player. Until they do, it's a laughable take when Suzuki is very clearly the team's best player.

I could not have been more clear that Suzuki and Dach weren't comparable as per those posts. You randomly bringing up PLD didn't disapprove of anything I said. However, me bringing up my posts where you failed to take away the main message does double down on my comments.

I don't care if the comparison annoys you.

Well this is a fun game. In that case, I don't care about your post comparing Caufield's struggles to Dach's when anyone with a pair of eyes can see that Caufield's struggles were nowhere near as bad as Dach's current struggles.

 

[Habs7631]

Trading our 1st right now is probably impossible due to how tight the race to the bottom is. No team would agree to trade a top tier player for our 1st since that player could easily impact a few more wins, and a few more wins at the end of the season would be the difference between picking top 4 or 5-10.

If you want to trade our 1st, the time to realistically do it would be after the draft lottery. Given the the gap between the top 4 (Schaefer, Misa, Hagens, Martone) and the rest of the draft, the tier of player we acquire can would greatly depend on where our pick land. Top 4 pick, we can go shopping for real big fish, 5-10 I’m not so sure anymore.

And careful on trading our 1st, might just be way too early for that. Plenty of examples of teams trading their 1st too early in a rebuild by trying to rush the process...

And Dobson for a top 4 pick? Me personally, no I’m good. He’ll be 25 at the season and and RFA. He’ll be needing a new contract after the Islanders bridged him, how much is he gonna look for? Dude was insanely underpaid during his bridge contract (12M/3Y, 4M AAV!!). How much is gonna be looking for his new contract?

The cap can be a real problem in destroying a team. With Suzuki, Caufield, Slaf, Guhle, Hutson, Demidov and maybe Laine, this team will be expensive to keep together at some point. Dobson at 25 with a monster contract, or a top 4 pick that has the potential to be an impact player for an extra 5-6 years for a lot cheaper...

 

[The Great Weal]

In retrospect yes. Not at the time. He has the dominant 1C size and skill, and in junior was a beast - had potential to become a 1C but doesn't look like he will come close now.

As did Suzuki where he actually performed in the 1C role unlike Dach. People thought he would overtake him based off of that preseason, not lengthy NHL sample sizes.

 

[Andrei79]

Anyone can become this team's best player. Hage could become our best player. Fowler could become our best player. Slaf could become our best player. Until they do, it's a laughable take when Suzuki is very clearly the team's best player.

I could not have been more clear that Suzuki and Dach weren't comparable as per those posts. You randomly bringing up PLD didn't disapprove of anything I said. However, me bringing up my posts where you failed to take away the main message does double down on my comments.

Well this is a fun game. In that case, I don't care about your post comparing Caufield's struggles to Dach's when anyone with a pair of eyes can see that Caufield's struggles were nowhere near as bad as Dach's current struggles.

The spirit of your comment was not that at all and you know it, don't backtrack on what you said. You liked Dach up to the point of is injury and that was the point with PLD. You certainly thought he could be a great player so at no point was that take "horrendous" before his injury. I have no doubt you don't want to talk about a 5'7" pure goal scorer not even pacing for 20 goals after 34 games with top line ice time and PP, who missed less time, had a less significant injury and didn't lose his skating. What league do you think GMs would play a player like that ? Injuries like these matter. It's literally taken out one of Dach's best skill and he's clearly affected by it. He looks like someone with no confidence right now.

Here's an example of someone who isn't patient with injuries:
"I know you love defending Cole at all costs no matter how terrible he's playing, but Caufield is getting paid to score goals while Suzuki is getting paid for his two way game. Caufield is supposed to be an elite goalscorer and he hasn't been that whatsoever this season"

Guess who posted that ?

 

[The Great Weal]

The spirit of your comment was not that at all and you know it, don't backtrack on what you said. You liked Dach up to the point of is injury and that was the point with PLD. You certainly thought he could be a great player so at no point was that take "horrendous" before his injury. I have no doubt you don't want to talk about a 5'7" pure goal scorer not even pacing for 20 goals after 34 games with top line ice time and PP, who missed less time, had a less significant injury and didn't lose his skating. What league do you think GMs would play a player like that ?

Liking Dach and thinking he’d overtake Suzuki are two very different things. I can still like Dach if he becomes a 50-60 point player (which he still can). That’s still nowhere near Suzuki. I’m not backtracking anything, all those posts clearly highlight how I think of Suzuki more highly than Dach. That was the entire point.

Comparing Caufield’s goalscoring struggles when he still did everything else to Dach who can’t do anything is completely dishonest that I’m not going to entertain that.

 

[Andrei79]

Liking Dach and thinking he’d overtake Suzuki are two very different things. I can still like Dach if he becomes a 50-60 point player (which he still can). That’s still nowhere near Suzuki. I’m not backtracking anything, all those posts clearly highlight how I think of Suzuki more highly than Dach. That was the entire point.

Comparing Caufield’s goalscoring struggles when he still did everything else to Dach who can’t do anything is completely dishonest that I’m not going to entertain that.

You should entertain it as you were saying similar kinds of things regarding Caufield up until pretty far into the season, disregarding the season ending surgery that clearly had an impact on his goalscoring. And your point about Caufield doing everything else is moot as you yourself disregarded that same point last year. You're changing opinions as it suits you and being inconsistent.

The initial point is you called that take as being always "atrocious". It wasn't. Your own first link disregards the notion that it was.

 

[The Great Weal]

You should entertain it as you were saying similar kinds of things regarding Caufield up until pretty far into the season, disregarding the season ending surgery that clearly had an impact on his goalscoring. And your point about Caufield doing everything else is moot as you yourself disregarded that same point last year. You're changing opinions as it suits you and being inconsistent.

Caufields struggles were nowhere near this bad. I didn’t think Caufield was arguably the worst player in the league. I didn’t like his season and questioned his contract, it’s not the same opinions I have about Dach.

The initial point is you called that take as being always "atrocious". It wasn't. Your own first link disregards the notion that it was.

It really doesn’t. All the posts were me disagreeing with how Dach will overtake Suzuki or him being better.

Not sure why you are trying to explain my own thoughts to me. I always thought Suzuki was the better player as you can clearly see and that until Dach actually overtakes him, we shouldn’t have this idea of him overtaking Nick.

 

[Sorinth]

The cap can be a real problem in destroying a team. With Suzuki, Caufield, Slaf, Guhle, Hutson, Demidov and maybe Laine, this team will be expensive to keep together at some point. Dobson at 25 with a monster contract, or a top 4 pick that has the potential to be an impact player for an extra 5-6 years for a lot cheaper...

Given that the pick would probably take a minimum of 3-4 years to get to Dobson's level, and that's if they even ever reach his level which the odds would say isn't even likely.

As for the cap, we could fairly easily afford Dobson at 12m if needed even with a flat cap. But it's unlikely to actually cost that and the cap won't be flat.

 

[VirginiaMtlExpat]

I would also prefer a proven C, but this type of player may not be available. What is your alternative then? Would you say no to Cozen for exemple?

There are buy-low opportunities every season. Even at 1c. Caps got Dylan Strome as FA and are rehabilitating PL Dubois as 1c and 2c on a very competitive team.

 

[Habs7631]

Given that the pick would probably take a minimum of 3-4 years to get to Dobson's level, and that's if they even ever reach his level which the odds would say isn't even likely.

As for the cap, we could fairly easily afford Dobson at 12m if needed even with a flat cap. But it's unlikely to actually cost that and the cap won't be flat.

Fair. Damn, ok, so say we had a top 4 pick after the lottery, you’d trade it for Dobson if NYI said yes?

 

[VirginiaMtlExpat]

I like Tuch, but Tuch, Laine, Caufield, Slafkovsky, and Demidov is just too many wingers.

I could see Demi emerge as 2c.

 

[Andrei79]

Caufields struggles were nowhere near this bad. I didn’t think Caufield was arguably the worst player in the league.

It really doesn’t. All the posts were me disagreeing with how Dach will overtake Suzuki or him being better.

Yes, that first link quite easily disproves that you thought those takes were always "atrocious", which is not the same as disagreeing. You were exaggerating, self snitched with those links and now we can move on.

A player with Caufields size and role (goal scorer) scoring at a lower pace than 20 goals over a season despite first line ice time and PP is not an NHLer. You disregarded his injury last year. You're disregarding Dach's injury this year. My worry is not Dach's effort level, it's if there will be permanent damage to his skating long term as it's a big part of his game.

 

[The Great Weal]

Yes, that first link quite easily disproves that you thought those takes were always "atrocious", which is not the same as disagreeing. You were exaggerating, self snitched with those links and now we can move on.

Self snitched by proving how I preferred Suzuki. Alright then lol. You should bring up Guy Lafleur to this conversation like how you did with PLD.

 

[Andrei79]

Self snitched by proving how I preferred Suzuki. Alright then lol. You should bring up Guy Lafleur to this conversation like how you did with PLD.

Man, I'm honestly at a point where I want to bring in a dictionary. You called a take atrocious. In your first link, you say Dach could be better. You didn't say it was an atrocious take, you quite literally were open to the idea. You've said before that Dach might become better than PLD at a time PLD had always outscored Suzuki. The point was the notion was not "atrocious" with the way Dach was trending here before the injury.

 

[HuGort]

Centers are in short supply this deadline. Habs will get prime return on Evans and Dvorak.

 

[The Great Weal]

You've said before that Dach might become better than PLD at a time PLD had always outscored Suzuki.

Post-Game Talk: - ITS OVER- Did we make a huge mistake on Pierre-Luc Dubois Thread?

I will say, if PLD really wants over 8.5 million I would have to think long and hard about it. He is still a 60 point player even though he's big and physical, that will hurt our cap structure. Honestly, anything over 8 is kind of an overpayment. 7.5 is fair value. He can't be compared to Suzuki...

forums.hfboards.com

So yes, I was wrong about him being fair at 7.5 million because he's been ass since then. I did make it clear how "He can't be compared to Suzuki". So him "always outscoring Suzuki" didn't mean much to me. So if you're trying to spin my thought pattern as "Dach>PLD and PLD>Suzuki, thus Dach>Suzuki" then it's complete nonsense. I'm probably the biggest Suzuki fan on this board and think he's still criminally underrated. Even in my "self snitch" post, I say "Suzuki and Caufield are clearly our best players...until that happens you can't say he (Dach) is (our best player).

This is in addition to other posts such as "I like Dach but to think he's a better playmaker than Suzuki is laughable". Or "Man I don't know why so many of you guys think Dach would overtake Suzuki as the #1C on this team. Guy could very well just top out as a 50-60 point player which is still valuable.".

For the record, I still stand by all these comments. I will gladly admit I was dead wrong, talking nonsense, and contradicting myself which I have done with other topics. In this case, I made it clear how Suzuki was better than Dach and that until he overtakes him, Dach isn't going to take his spot. I will reiterate that anyone can become the best player on this team.

 

[Whalers Fan]

I personally hope Hughes makes no trades since his track record of losing everyone of his trades is evident. This organization just can't get their act together no matter what they do, who they hire...nothing ever works anymore.

Laine, Monahan, and Heineman were all acquired via trade. Hage, while drafted by Hughes, was only possible due to a trade up in the draft. I would consider these all wins.

 

[Habs]

no way we trade our first if it's a top 3-5 pick, there is no way we should

The talent is too good , although this team is dumb enough to trade a Misa for Dobson

 

[Sorinth]

Fair. Damn, ok, so say we had a top 4 pick after the lottery, you’d trade it for Dobson if NYI said yes?

I'd have to see how the prospects actually handle their draft year, and I'd hesitate if the pick was #1 vs say #3 but caveats aside I'm leaning yes. But I also don't think we are drafting top-4 unless we win the lottery so it's probably moot.

 

[The Great Weal]

Perhaps in the summer, but right now if we trade for Dobson then the pick immediatly becomes less valuable because we will start winning more games.

Think it was insinuated that it would be an offseason trade. It would really sting giving up the 1st if it's top 4. I'm fine with giving up pick #5 and potentially more depending on how much more and what Dobson will sign for.

 

[Kimota]

Sabres and Rangers open for business. I think NYR could use a guy like Matheson to spark the offense.

Max Lapierre convinced me that we should aim for Cousin in Buffalo.

He is pretty reliable on NYI stock

Strangely, I'd take a crack at Anders Lee. I've always liked that guy. And he's the veteran leadership presence we have been looking for.

 

[Runner77]

With Dvorak finally leaving this season, I'm perfectly fine with Newhook as the 3C starting next season. With the right wingers, you can build a serviceable fast energy line around him. If Beck has a strong camp, then you bump Newhook to his wing and he can at least help the rookie settle .

Is Newhook someone you can really build with? And what qualifies him to be a 3C, with many on here questioning his IQ? I like the speed game he brings but he’s not a very creative playmaker. And some have expressed concern about size in the bottom 6.

I’m not sure if or where he fits, although I do appreciate that Beck can use a mentor. Could that role not best filled by someone else who could be on the market by the summer?

 

[ReHabs]

Caufields struggles were nowhere near this bad.

Dach’s on pace for <30pts and has been criticized for every facet of his game while last year a visibly hampered Caufield with a historically low sh% finished with 65pt and never stopped moving his feet.

And it’s not like with Eller, Lehkonen, or even Newhook where the player seems to be doing more right things and brings energy but somehow doesn’t score.

If Dach starts scoring at a higher clip, we could say he had an acute disadvantage for XX games and the got out of it. Even that is different from Caufield whose game didn’t change much between seasons, he was just hampered after the shoulder surgery.

So it seems to me so far in the season, Caufield and Dach’s respective struggles are Differences in Kind and not just Differences in Degrees. They can’t be compared.

 

[ReHabs]

I’m reading Dobson to the Habs and I’m liking what I’m reading. He could be our Shea Weber without being on the decline when we get him. He’s turning 25 and is a top-line dman.