HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #84: Off-Season edition

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

I'm not willing to trade those assets for any pending UFA who has apparently expressed interest in signing here. It would be an idiotic waste of assets to do so. It has nothing at all to do with my opinion of Dubois. (Although I think it's odd you don't think there are 12 comparables on that list, you must hold him in extremely high regard. Karlsson, Miller, Hertz, Caufield, Chychrun, McAvoy, Chabot, Tarasensko, Connor, Barzal, Larkin, Radulov, Seabrook... That's more than a dozen. And that's supposed to "prove" that swapping that pick plus a solid prospect for Dubois is a low-risk choice? I couldn't disagree more.)

As for your "explanations" about why it's not the best idea to wait, it's only because you've decided that he doesn't actually want to come here, and instead he will sign elsewhere if the Canadiens wait.

Strangely, you've also decided that by trading for him a year before unrestricted free agency, he will promptly then sign a multi-year deal with the Canadiens at a reasonable rate.

Don't you see how silly it is that you have manufactured a fictional scenario that only allows for things to play out in one way, with zero evidence to support any of it??

I didn't say he doesn't want to come here, I said it might change. There's no guarantee he'll still want to come here when he is an actual free agent.

He isn't UFA, 1 year before, unless he signs a 1 year deal.

Not sure how my scenario is "silly" and that by me stating the Habs should trade for him and get him locked up to a probable "reasonable" contract is bad, but waiting for him to be an actual free agent and potentially competing with other teams to sign him isn't "silly".

However, I digress, let's hope the Habs take your passive approach when a 6'3, 60 point centre wants to come here, just wait and hope everything works out in about 16 months from now.

Just look at all the top players the Habs have signed. Just look at all the top players the Habs have drafted and developed.

Silly me.

 

[FerrisRox]

1- The offer is not comparable, when there's multiple offers on the table, then you have to base your offer on other offer. Trading for him a year before anyone can talk to him assure that your offer is the only one on the table for him to look at.

2- 8 years. That 8 years is the best offer he could ever get from any teams for terms, even if the situation would drag until UFA period. As for the money, we see contract as 8y x 9M or 3y x 3.5M......but players\agent sees the value of the contract.

8 years at 8M is a $64M contract let say versus a 7 years at 8.5M is a $59.5M contract.
You have a $64M and a $59.5M contract in front of you.....which one do you prefer?

I would prefer the $59.5 million offer from a market with a much more player-friendly tax bracket than Quebec.

I'm quite certain every player would prefer that, if it was all about the money so this is an odd argument to make.

As for the "only one offer" scenario, this only works if Dubois suddenly decides, simply because Montreal has traded for him, that he is going to forgo going to free agency. If that's the case, if he is so set on playing for Montreal, why trade for him at all and just sign him for free?

These scenarios seems to want to have it both ways, on one had hand, the reason for trading for him is to get him to forgo free agency and sign him with no competition for his services and apparently had a discount price, but on the other hand, the reason to trade for him is out of fear that he won't sign in Montreal as a free agent and there will be too much competition for him.

Surely you can see how these two scenario are in conflict with each other?

 

[FerrisRox]

I didn't say he doesn't want to come here, I said it might change. There's no guarantee he'll still want to come here when he is an actual free agent.

There's also no guarantee that if the Canadiens acquire him via trade that he will want to sign an extension.

He isn't UFA, 1 year before, unless he signs a 1 year deal.

Not sure how my scenario is "silly" and that by me stating the Habs should trade for him and get him locked up to a probable "reasonable" contract is bad, but waiting for him to be an actual free agent and potentially competing with other teams to sign him isn't "silly".

Really?

You don't see the difference in the two scenarios? In one scenario the Canadiens give up a 1st round pick and a solid prospect, plus whatever else to have the chance to sign him a year early.

In the other scenario the Canadiens don't give up anything.

However, I digress, let's hope the Habs take your passive approach when a 6'3, 60 point centre wants to come here, just wait and hope everything works out in about 16 months from now.

Just look at all the top players the Habs have signed. Just look at all the top players the Habs have drafted and developed.

Silly me.

Silly indeed. Luckily, I don't think Hughes is nearly dumb enough to entertain this idea.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

There's also no guarantee that if the Canadiens acquire him via trade that he will want to sign an extension.



Really?

You don't see the difference in the two scenarios? In one scenario the Canadiens give up a 1st round pick and a solid prospect, plus whatever else to have the chance to sign him a year early.

In the other scenario the Canadiens don't give up anything.



Silly indeed. Luckily, I don't think Hughes is nearly dumb enough to entertain this idea.

I imagine Hughes will do is due diligence and "talk" to Brisson beforehand and get a good idea as to whether PLD wants to sign a long-term deal, or if he wants a 1 year, let's see what I can do and then sign.

The majority are hoping if the Jets are asking for a 1st and one of the better prospects to just pass, then.

Something like Dvorak (NHL player and money) Florida's 1st (which is getting worse and worse every day) then a mid ranking prospect, or a 2nd in lioe 2025, or the avs next year.

Hughes has entertained this, as Friedman has reported the Jets and Habs have had conversations about him already.

 

[Scriptor]

you dont want a 24 years old top 6 center thats almost ppg plays with grit,wants to come back home and for free?

He's 24, going on 25 on St-Jean-Baptiste day (June 24th), a natural to be back in Quebec

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Delete: Wrong thread

Detroit sucks.

Month ago they seemed to be on the upswing, got dummied by Ottawa to show how much they suck.

Ottawa had the pressure actually turned on and have sucked.

Florida's pick was destined to suck once the thread was made to discuss it.

Means it's likely a trade for it, but for a roster player, or trade back...

 

[Scriptor]

Lol no need to exaggerate to try to make a point when all i said was that i wouldn’t want them to give assets for him or that i don’t think it’s the time to get an UFA like him even a year from now.

But i guess wanting them to be patient and be smart with those kind of decisions means i want them to trade everyone for picks.

Still don't know what your plan to take time and whatever else amounts to? Spell it out instead of just saying what you would do or would have done is/was the better thing to do.

 

[Scriptor]

If he asks for $9+ million, you simply don't sign him as a free agent.

Why do you think trading him for him a year before free agency somehow secures a lower price to sign him? How does that work?

No guarantees in life -- and I won't bring up any suggestion that Hughes and Dubois' agent already talked about such things as salary while Dubois was not yet signed as a RFA with WIN this past offseason, as some suggest -- but the trade would not happen without a sign and deal and extending Dubois with one RFA season left already affects the AVV by the en do of the contract.

Avoiding an open bidding war that might occur once Dubois becomes an unrestricted Free Agent by more than one other suitor also puts less upwards pressure on Dubois' Cap hit.

It's rather straightforward, really.

 

[FF de Mars]

Some geniuses here really think the trick to acquiring good players is to wait for them to hit UFA and prove themselves to the Habs by signing a team friendly deal

wow if only the rest of us thought of that

You seem to forget about the cap. The money spent on Dubois will still be available if he doesn't sign. Timing and assets are way more important. You seem to think out of necessity, "no players want to sign", but to make better decisions, you need an adondance mentality. Since you like the word magic, you talk about "magic beans", do you think Dubois is a wish from Aladin's magic lamp as well? You don't seem to understand the whole picture, it's reminescent of realpolitik in the sense power isn't the only factor.

 

[Milhouse40]

Who are the two cities involved?

I triedto make it simple, but a lot more things came into play

 

[Scriptor]

All of this started because some people said he apparently wanted to play for the habs, as if he only would play for them. So then everyone suddenly wanted the habs to trade for him, because he's from here and WANT to play here.

But now you try to ridicule people for saying they wouldn't want to trade for him and would prefer for the habs to wait if he gets to the UFA market. As if he's the one who can't ''wait'' for the habs or he's making some favor for the habs to get him while he can go wherever he wants.

Which one is it?

Which rebuilding team gave a first round pick for the rights of a top-end player?

"But now you try to ridicule people for saying they wouldn't want to trade for him and would prefer for the habs to wait if he gets to the UFA market"

Hurt your back any moving the goal posts of your argument? Didn't you say you don't want him as an UFA either?

 

[Milhouse40]

I would prefer the $59.5 million offer from a market with a much more player-friendly tax bracket than Quebec.

I'm quite certain every player would prefer that, if it was all about the money so this is an odd argument to make.

As for the "only one offer" scenario, this only works if Dubois suddenly decides, simply because Montreal has traded for him, that he is going to forgo going to free agency. If that's the case, if he is so set on playing for Montreal, why trade for him at all and just sign him for free?

These scenarios seems to want to have it both ways, on one had hand, the reason for trading for him is to get him to forgo free agency and sign him with no competition for his services and apparently had a discount price, but on the other hand, the reason to trade for him is out of fear that he won't sign in Montreal as a free agent and there will be too much competition for him.

Surely you can see how these two scenario are in conflict with each other?

Wanting to play for Montreal and being the only team he would want to play for is 2 different things.
And New York don't have any problems signing top players despites their tax bracket....not to mentioned that in his precise case, he would make tons of money off-ice too

Point being, there's advantage of trading for a player before he hit UFA even if there's talk that MTL is a team he would want to go to. That fact only gives you an advantage in trading for him as it would be a sign and trade deal.....at UFA, you'll be only one out 5-6-7 teams he would want to play for.

 

[Scriptor]

There's also no guarantee that if the Canadiens acquire him via trade that he will want to sign an extension.

You are ether being deliberately obtuse, for you've lost your head and it's rather annoying. MON will not trade for Dubois without an extension, especially if it means giving up FLA's 1st round pick, a B+ prospect and a roster player.

Really?

You don't see the difference in the two scenarios? In one scenario the Canadiens give up a 1st round pick and a solid prospect, plus whatever else to have the chance to sign him a year early.

In the other scenario the Canadiens don't give up anything.

Everybody agrees the best of both worlds scenario would be a dream come true. It's been repeated many times, but there is value to acquiring Dubois sooner rather than later, and not just hoped for better Cap hit with an extension signed. Hockey-wise, having a 2nd top-6 C of Dubois' level can only be good for the continued development of Caufield, Dach, Suzuki and Slafkovsky, to begin with. It also provides better answers to surround other youngsters when they join the Habs' NHL roster.

Silly indeed. Luckily, I don't think Hughes is nearly dumb enough to entertain this idea.

Unfortunately, you lack the vision to see things clearly.

 

[FerrisRox]

Unfortunately, you lack the vision to see things clearly.

Right, I'm the one that is being obtuse and doesn't get it.

This place hasn't changed at all.

 

[Scriptor]

I would prefer the $59.5 million offer from a market with a much more player-friendly tax bracket than Quebec.

I'm quite certain every player would prefer that, if it was all about the money so this is an odd argument to make.

As for the "only one offer" scenario, this only works if Dubois suddenly decides, simply because Montreal has traded for him, that he is going to forgo going to free agency. If that's the case, if he is so set on playing for Montreal, why trade for him at all and just sign him for free?

These scenarios seems to want to have it both ways, on one had hand, the reason for trading for him is to get him to forgo free agency and sign him with no competition for his services and apparently had a discount price, but on the other hand, the reason to trade for him is out of fear that he won't sign in Montreal as a free agent and there will be too much competition for him.

Surely you can see how these two scenario are in conflict with each other?

Only if you remain so narrow-minded and refuse to recognize how having Dubois next year will help stabilize the roster and provide a better development environment for Caufield, Suzuki, Dach and Slafkovsky, plus whichever other rookie makes the NHL up front.

 

[Scriptor]

Right, I'm the one that is being obtuse and doesn't get it.

This place hasn't changed at all.

Things don't change if you refuse to think outside your preset mindframe.

Many times, other considerations, hockey-related, contract related, etc. have been brought up, yet you continue to only argue within the initial parameters you had engaged to argue within at the onset.

It's hard to converse with an inanimate object.

 

[Rapala]

Delete: Wrong thread

I say that to myself everytime I end up here.

 

[calder candidate]

deleted

 

[SnapVirus]

Dont trade for PLD.

He’ll cost you two or three good assets, PLUS our team will be better next year. So we will have a worst draft again, so we miss a chance to draft another young piece.

Get him as a UFA. 1 or 1.5M$ more per year on a the caphit is better than give a first rounder + farell/roy/mailloux + scrapping our 2025 first rounder odds.

And if Dubois dont want to sign here. Good riddance. Theres a lot of other 60pts center that we could trade good assets for.

If his name was Andreas Johnston. No one would be talking about him.

Its like everyone hates on Drouin for his passitivity. But they all forget PLD had muchhhh worst attitude problems in CLB. What will happens if something dont go his way, with a 8.5M$/8years contract + the assets you gave for him? Chaos.

 

[HabzSauce]

Dont trade for PLD.

He’ll cost you two or three good assets, PLUS our team will be better next year. So we will have a worst draft again, so we miss a chance to draft another young piece.

Get him as a UFA. 1 or 1.5M$ more per year on a the caphit is better than give a first rounder + farell/roy/mailloux + scrapping our 2025 first rounder odds.

And if Dubois dont want to sign here. Good riddance. Theres a lot of other 60pts center that we could trade good assets for.

If his name was Andreas Johnston. No one would be talking about him.

Its like everyone hates on Drouin for his passitivity. But they all forget PLD had muchhhh worst attitude problems in CLB. What will happens if something dont go his way, with a 8.5M$/8years contract + the assets you gave for him? Chaos.

I want us to trade for PLD this summer because I can see the positives of having him in our lineup next season. We all saw how valuable monahan was for the rest of the lineup. PLD would have that same affect but better. So we're getting solid development for our rookies with him too.

It obviously all depends on the ask. And I think the ask ultimately depends on what Chevy thinks he can get at 2024 TDL.

That's really where the value is. Chevy will have to make a decision this summer if he wants to take what he can get from the Habs, or risk it for the biscuit at TDL instead (which could backfire against him).

If it's a trade like FLA 1st+Dvo+Harris, I do that any day of the week. Maybe even cheaper if possible lmao. I have a really hard time assessing his value right now but I don't think it's as high as people think. Maybe a little more than trouba trade.

But if it's as high as some of these HF posters have been proposing lately then I'd probably pass and wait for UFA.

 

[Paddy17]

Wanting to play for Montreal and being the only team he would want to play for is 2 different things.
And New York don't have any problems signing top players despites their tax bracket....not to mentioned that in his precise case, he would make tons of money off-ice too

Point being, there's advantage of trading for a player before he hit UFA even if there's talk that MTL is a team he would want to go to. That fact only gives you an advantage in trading for him as it would be a sign and trade deal.....at UFA, you'll be only one out 5-6-7 teams he would want to play for.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the Habs be able to sign PLD to an 8-year contract if they traded for his rights before free agency, after the next season ends? That's always a possibility, since the team that owns his rights already knows that he's going to free agency.... might as well pick up a 4th or a 5th by trading his rights.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Yeah, I think the text looks scary but it’ll be interpreted away easily. Not something to concern ourselves about.

Ekholm will find a solution.

It could end up as a non-viable law that isn’t prosecuted. Im sure people have already started pushing back against it. Savvy, rich person agents and lawyers have likely already found solutions.

Uh, no it wont. That's not how any of this works. Its not concerning because Montreal's rebuilding and aren't going to be major players in free agency anyways.

And to be clear, not purchasing property until you meet residency requirements is always an option. Athletes tend to be able to afford that.

And that's not how law works. Nor is that the issue. Its an order where the problem isn't "pushing back against it". When it comes to athletes, its pretty clear what you can and cant do, and recent reporting changes to the ITA means its harder to use tried and true workarounds.

The biggest issue with it has nothing to do with athletes, its that the interpretation of residential property isn't clear enough.

The issue is for teams is that its a hassle to deal with that for some players, so they'd just prefer not to. Which is what the government wants anyways, since its meant as a deterrent.

A person can circumvent the law and purchase the home for said player. Once the residency is on play, the house gets sold over to the player at the predetermined price.

Pretty certain a superstar UFA would get that service from the team acquiring him...

Who's purchasing the home? real estate agents and (especially) lawyers are licensed professions. assisting in purchases may (beyond fines) lead to disciplinary action and potentially suspension of licenses.

Its not a problem because you can always rent for a year or two and just buy something else later. When you're playing at that income level and with the real estate market what it is right now, buying in most Canadian markets may not be advisable anyways.

 

[Gravity]

Who needs good players under 25 and in their prime when you could hold onto magic beans with a clenched fist.

PLD could very well be our Tavares signing. It's the contract and the cap structure post-PLD signing that worries me. No need to rush a rebuild.

 

[BaseballCoach]

PLD could very well be our Tavares signing. It's the contract and the cap structure post-PLD signing that worries me. No need to rush a rebuild.

Cap structure IS important, but I have run the numbers and for 24-25 we can afford the 11 strong player model I propose to build :

Dubois $7.9 or slightly more​

Suzuki $7.9​

Caufield $7.9​

Dach $3.4​

2023 high pick on ELC​

Slafkovsky on ELC​

$4.4M 3C Dvorak or better​

​

Matheson $4.9​

1 RH-D $9.0​

Guhle on ELC​

​

a starting goalie $6.5M​

​

Sub-Total $55M​

​

plus 5 more forwards, 3 more D and a backup G = total 9 players $13.6M​

​

plus Savard, Armia and Gallagher $13.4M if all still here​

​

GRAND TOTAL $82M on cap of $86M or so​

​

This means trading Anderson somewhere along the way​

​

​

​

​

 

[Gravity]

Cap structure IS important, but I have run the numbers and for 24-25 we can afford the 11 strong player model I propose to build :

Dubois $7.9 or slightly more​

Suzuki $7.9​

Caufield $7.9​

Dach $3.4​

2023 high pick on ELC​

Slafkovsky on ELC​

$4.4M 3C Dvorak or better​

​

Matheson $4.9​

1 RH-D $9.0​

Guhle on ELC​

​

a starting goalie $6.5M​

​

Sub-Total $55M​

​

plus 5 more forwards, 3 more D and a backup G = total 9 players $13.6M​

​

plus Savard, Armia and Gallagher $13.4M if all still here​

​

GRAND TOTAL $82M on cap of $86M or so​

​

This means trading Anderson somewhere along the way​

​

​

​

​

And how does this work when Guhle becomes an RFA the season after as does Slaf? Caufield hasn't signed for 7.9 yet. God knows how much PLD will ask for.