Pre-Game Talk: Trade Deadline Shenanigans II

[CowMix]

So I guess the question will be can Versteeg replace Williams?

 

[Omni Owl]

So I guess the question will be can Versteeg replace Williams?

Well that'd be great, but I'm not expecting it.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

So I guess the question will be can Versteeg replace Williams?

I want to be encouraged and say yes because Versteeg has had a good season but then I think back to him in the playoffs last season and he was absolutely dreadful. Looked like 2014 Mike Richards. Couldn't receive a pass, was getting lost defensively, and couldn't score to save his life.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I liked last year's playoff team. When are people going to realize this isnt anywhere close to the team that won two cups. Imo

It's pretty close, considering last year's team finished with the same number of points as the 2012 team...that...well, you know the rest.

That's amazing considering the amount of times we have complained about our D this season.

That's because we were spoiled by one of the best defensive D groups of all time, having prime Scuderi, Mitchell, Greene on top of two way guys like Doughty, Voynov, Martinez ALL PLAYING AT THE TOP OF THEIR GAMES.

So I guess the question will be can Versteeg replace Williams?

**** no.

I'm pessimistic so I'm biased but I think he's neutral at best. Maybe good for .4 PPG, Sutter will lambaste him for 'not being in a checking mood,' etc.

I've never seen the guy in a corner. If Sutter gets him to perform I'll be stoked, but I think it's a recipe for disaster. Not worse than what's currently been there, but we're trading grit/possession for minor scoring upgrade if at all. It's marginal. Not the influence JWill has unless I'm missing something with the Sutter/Versteeg connection.

I also want to re-point out that Chicago got bigger and slower. Playing right into our hands imo.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

It's pretty close, considering last year's team finished with the same number of points as the 2012 team...that...well, you know the rest.



That's because we were spoiled by one of the best defensive D groups of all time, having prime Scuderi, Mitchell, Greene on top of two way guys like Doughty, Voynov, Martinez ALL PLAYING AT THE TOP OF THEIR GAMES.



**** no.

I'm pessimistic so I'm biased but I think he's neutral at best. Maybe good for .4 PPG, Sutter will lambaste him for 'not being in a checking mood,' etc.

I've never seen the guy in a corner. If Sutter gets him to perform I'll be stoked, but I think it's a recipe for disaster. Not worse than what's currently been there, but we're trading grit/possession for minor scoring upgrade if at all. It's marginal. Not the influence JWill has unless I'm missing something with the Sutter/Versteeg connection.

I also want to re-point out that Chicago got bigger and slower. Playing right into our hands imo.

And they got Ehrhoff hehe. Hopefully he looks as bad for them as he did for us.

 

[cyclones22]

That's because we were spoiled by one of the best defensive D groups of all time, having prime Scuderi, Mitchell, Greene on top of two way guys like Doughty, Voynov, Martinez ALL PLAYING AT THE TOP OF THEIR GAMES.

Every season we ***** about the defense, even in 2014 when they also won the Jennings. 2012 was the gold standard. But it's funny how a top 2 or 3 defense isn't good enough to win the Cup in the minds of some. Oh and we iced the same 6 defenders and the pairings stayed the same for all 20 playoff games in 2012. That never happens. Karma caught up in 2013 and took away 2 stay at home guys with injury. That was our worst defense over the last 5 seasons, FYI. You might be prepared to lose 1 defender, but 2 for an extended amount of time is a lot to ask for. Same thing last season. We were prepared to lose 1 defender in Mitchell, losing the entire pairing with Voynov was too much.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Every season we ***** about the defense, even in 2014 when they also won the Jennings. 2012 was the gold standard. But it's funny how a top 2 or 3 defense isn't good enough to win the Cup in the minds of some. Oh and we iced the same 6 defenders and the pairings stayed the same for all 20 playoff games in 2012. That never happens. Karma caught up in 2013 and took away 2 stay at home guys with injury. That was our worst defense over the last 5 seasons, FYI. You might be prepared to lose 1 defender, but 2 for an extended amount of time is a lot to ask for. Same thing last season. We were prepared to lose 1 defender in Mitchell, losing the entire pairing with Voynov was too much.

Well, you're supporting the argument, because the argument points out that neither was adequately replaced.

And I don't think our D is **** by any stretch of the imagination, but there is a pretty glaring hole there that McNabb was unprepared to fill (by no fault of his own imo). That alone COULD derail a cup run. Especially for a team that prides itself on defense and low GA, but has had an insanely hard time generating 5v5 goals for...for now, be very, very thankful for the power play.

What's funny is our offensive depth is arguably better than ever, and that will be crucial for playoff matchups. And I think what we did with our D with Schenn and Scuderi was go BACKWARDS TOWARDS the 2012-2014 defense by adding d-specialists in a time when many teams are running away from the classic guys. It's less than ideal because of LHD vs. RHD and because the best guys are puck movers (top heavy), but it's similar--Doughty, Muzzin (instead of Voynov), Martinez as two-way PMD, McNabb (instead of Mitchell or I guess Regehr, similar game type), Scuderi (again! lol), and Schenn (instead of Greene) as the defense-focused type. The weaknesses there are we're not sure if Scuderi can be the same guy (i.e. he's most likely not eating his minutes with Doughty again) and that McNabb is most certainly not Mitchell...though ****, he might be Regehr with better hands and somehow slower feet.

If Greene makes it back that gives us extensive depth/insurance, and if gaborik comes back our offense is sitting pretty. I honestly like what we have vs. almost anyone out there. The teams that will give us fits are Chicago as always (not because of their deadline moves, just because chicago), Anaheim because of their depth, and San Jose because they've worked out their D a bit and their forward depth is arguably the best in the league right now. We just have to hope the experience our guys have is the intangible to get us over the hump of youthful energy or small speed/skill.

 

[bob77]

So I guess the question will be can Versteeg replace Williams?

Im not expecting it. His new acclimation to checking roles and defensive responsibility will stagnate any offensive capabilities. He did have a good year after leaving the hawks, but not much after that. DS will quickly fall out of favor with him while watching his play along the boards. I just dont see it. Itd be nice if im wrong

 

[Basilisk]

If Greene makes it back that gives us extensive depth/insurance, and if gaborik comes back our offense is sitting pretty. I honestly like what we have vs. almost anyone out there. The teams that will give us fits are Chicago as always (not because of their deadline moves, just because chicago), Anaheim because of their depth, and San Jose because they've worked out their D a bit and their forward depth is arguably the best in the league right now. We just have to hope the experience our guys have is the intangible to get us over the hump of youthful energy or small speed/skill.

You're RIGHT!!!! I totally forgot about Greene!!! We could essentially have 2/3 of our D from the 2012 Cup.....


Scuderi / Doughty

Muzzin / Schenn

Martinez / Greene


McNabb, Gravel, McBain, Forbort, & Schultz as extras

 

[Johnny Utah]

Andreoff is better than Shore at this point. He has showed better hands and has more goals than Clifford, Nolan and Shore.

 

[cyclones22]

My point is that after the seasons the Kings lost more than they bargained for in season, the FO adjusts and bounces back the next. 2-8-1-5-1. Defensive rank over the last 5 seasons. Of course, our guys could fall off a cliff and finish outside of the top 5, but I'm guessing they won't. Greene returning would be an unexpected boon. Dude was on the scrap heap in 2014 and came back and stepped in during the playoffs and was fine. Could it happen again? We'll see. In short spurts, he could be effective. Hoping the same with Scuderi.

 

[Omni Owl]

Andreoff is better than Shore at this point. He has showed better hands and has more goals than Clifford, Nolan and Shore.

Agreed, and I have never been a big fan of AA.

 

[Winger23]

Andreoff is better than Shore at this point. He has showed better hands and has more goals than Clifford, Nolan and Shore.

Agreed, but imo it's more of a case on who sucks less. 4th line will get less time in the playoffs anyhow. I'm more concerned about having to use guys like Clifford and brown with kopi on the first line. Hopefully Pearson keeps his play us so at least Lucic could move back with him.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Shore is also a team worst -7.

 

[gnarls barkley]

Well, you're supporting the argument, because the argument points out that neither was adequately replaced.

And I don't think our D is **** by any stretch of the imagination, but there is a pretty glaring hole there that McNabb was unprepared to fill (by no fault of his own imo). That alone COULD derail a cup run. Especially for a team that prides itself on defense and low GA, but has had an insanely hard time generating 5v5 goals for...for now, be very, very thankful for the power play.

What's funny is our offensive depth is arguably better than ever, and that will be crucial for playoff matchups. And I think what we did with our D with Schenn and Scuderi was go BACKWARDS TOWARDS the 2012-2014 defense by adding d-specialists in a time when many teams are running away from the classic guys. It's less than ideal because of LHD vs. RHD and because the best guys are puck movers (top heavy), but it's similar--Doughty, Muzzin (instead of Voynov), Martinez as two-way PMD, McNabb (instead of Mitchell or I guess Regehr, similar game type), Scuderi (again! lol), and Schenn (instead of Greene) as the defense-focused type. The weaknesses there are we're not sure if Scuderi can be the same guy (i.e. he's most likely not eating his minutes with Doughty again) and that McNabb is most certainly not Mitchell...though ****, he might be Regehr with better hands and somehow slower feet.

If Greene makes it back that gives us extensive depth/insurance, and if gaborik comes back our offense is sitting pretty. I honestly like what we have vs. almost anyone out there. The teams that will give us fits are Chicago as always (not because of their deadline moves, just because chicago), Anaheim because of their depth, and San Jose because they've worked out their D a bit and their forward depth is arguably the best in the league right now. We just have to hope the experience our guys have is the intangible to get us over the hump of youthful energy or small speed/skill.

this year's D could very well look a lot like 2012 in terms of structure, but I'd still much rather have Greene than McNabb on that 3rd pairing (or god forbid, 1st pair with Doughty). My problem with McNabb isn't his foot speed or his hands, it's his goddamn decision making. Dude CONSTANTLY looks like he's always taking a few seconds too long on getting rid of the puck and it results in a turnover or worse. Even with Reggie and Greener, the complaints were always that they were slow with bad hands, but they still knew how to clear the ****ing puck out of a corner in less than 3 seconds. With McNabb it always seems like a coin flip if he's going to get rid of it before he gets pickpocketed or forced into a turnover.

 

[Peter James Bond II]

still laughing about getting pwned by 'Blob McKenzie' tweet of the 'Forbort trade' yesterday. Blob called a Drouin trade to the Pens and apparently TSN mentioned it??
LOL!! I want to follow Blob! Captain Mittens quality stuff! From Blob McKenzie's Twitter:

Someone made an account called Blob Mckenzie that said Drouin to Pittsburgh and they announced it on the TSN special

The best fake insider account is by far and away Blob McKenzie.

We go to a live look at new NHL Insider, Blob McKenzie.

OK, so we know what Bob McKenzie thinks this trade will be, but what does Blob McKenzie have to say about this?

Winner of trade deadline day: Blob McKenzie

(this one below kills me!)

Reminder: Blob McKenzie, Pear Lebrun and God Miller are not reliable sources

Here's Blob's Drouin to Pens tweet:
Follow

Bob McKenzie
‏@TSNBlobMcKenzie
The Lightning have traded Jonathan Drouin to the Penguins for Derrick Pouliot. Trade call pending, might be more pieces involved from Pens.

 

[BigKing]

Why do people keep saying this? Lombardi has said he is hoping to get Gaborik back before the playoffs even start.

And also, you're automatically assuming the Kings will lose the division to Anaheim, which isn't a foregone conclusion at all.

Because I'm still *hoping* for Pearson's return to push us into the playoffs last year. Also hoping that Allison's return will really solidify the C position as we enter the playoffs.

Not a foregone conclusion, but if everyone else can recite past history to back up good hopes for the Kings, I'll do the same when it comes to winning the division.

As for Lemmy's response about two different teams under Sutter, the 2012 and '14 teams went on tears around this time due in large part to TDL acquisitions and AHL call-ups. Nothing to put us over the top at the TDL and highly doubtful you get a King/Nolan or Toffoli/Pearson bump from any of the AHL kids.

This is the same team as last year without the OT/SO choking. I agree that this team is still "built for the playoffs" and the system will help the seeming drop in talent this blueline has in comparison to '12 and '14 but I am very worried about scoring.

Scoring was not an issue in '12 post-Carter and was not an issue in '14 post Gaborik/Toffoli/Pearson. They beat the Ducks with effing Jeff Schultz which is why I'm not as worried about the defense as most on the board. I just can't buy into the switch flip because, when you start using logic, you see there are reasons for the increased offense in the Cup years and the reason wasn't because they just decided to start scoring because some mythical switch was flipped.

If you want to compare a current team to the '12 and '14 Kings, look no further than Anaheim. That's the team that couldn't score, made some trades and added guys off IR and has now gone on a tear at the right time. I'll feel better about the Kings if they can go on a bit of a tear this month and stop squeaking by bottom-feeders and being dominated by Anaheim while scoring no more than two goals per game.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Because I'm still *hoping* for Pearson's return to push us into the playoffs last year. Also hoping that Allison's return will really solidify the C position as we enter the playoffs.

Not a foregone conclusion, but if everyone else can recite past history to back up good hopes for the Kings, I'll do the same when it comes to winning the division.

As for Lemmy's response about two different teams under Sutter, the 2012 and '14 teams went on tears around this time due in large part to TDL acquisitions and AHL call-ups. Nothing to put us over the top at the TDL and highly doubtful you get a King/Nolan or Toffoli/Pearson bump from any of the AHL kids.

This is the same team as last year without the OT/SO choking. I agree that this team is still "built for the playoffs" and the system will help the seeming drop in talent this blueline has in comparison to '12 and '14 but I am very worried about scoring.

Scoring was not an issue in '12 post-Carter and was not an issue in '14 post Gaborik/Toffoli/Pearson. They beat the Ducks with effing Jeff Schultz which is why I'm not as worried about the defense as most on the board. I just can't buy into the switch flip because, when you start using logic, you see there are reasons for the increased offense in the Cup years and the reason wasn't because they just decided to start scoring because some mythical switch was flipped.

If you want to compare a current team to the '12 and '14 Kings, look no further than Anaheim. That's the team that couldn't score, made some trades and added guys off IR and has now gone on a tear at the right time. I'll feel better about the Kings if they can go on a bit of a tear this month and stop squeaking by bottom-feeders and being dominated by Anaheim while scoring no more than two goals per game.

I mean, I'm nitpicking, but Mersch/Versteeg = at least King/Nolan, and who knows what other shenanigans DL has up his sleeve. The difference is we have 'better' scoring depth than 2012 though a catalyst like gabork or Carter wasn't necessarily added, I agree.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Scuderi-Doughty
Mitchell-Voynov
Martinez-Greene

May be the best blueline to win a Cup since the lockout in 2005. They were that good, all in their primes, all producing, and none of them injured. It literally does not get better than that. We'll never see a defense like that again.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Ugh, had a nice post going but closed tab -_-

Was just going to say, to add to the above, I think we're going to break through offensively and soon. Even despite the Boston game, we're at a historically low shooting % and there's no way that sticks, imo. Unless you think we're worse than the 2015 Coyotes and the 2014 Sabres et. al., in which case you should just jump ship immediately.

historical perspective:

2016: Kings, 6.02% (30th in NHL); Ducks, 6.08% (29th, and trending up hard); Sabres, 6.17% (28th, .15 better than us).

2015: Kings, 7.54% (17th in NHL); last was Arizona at 5.72%, 29th Carolina at 6.15%.

2014: Kings, 6.51% (29th in NHL); last was Buffalo at 5.84%. 28th was NYR at 6.66% (again, .15 jump--and guess who was in the SCF )

2013: Kings, 7.59% (19th in NHL); last was Florida at 5.77, 29th Ottawa at 6.01.

2012: Kings, 6.03% (yes, better than now), 30th. 29th was Minnesota at 6.27.

2011 Kings jump up massively mostly due to pre-Sutter imo, but 8.2% = 7th in the league.



Since Jan first, we're shooting 5.5%--or 1/3 of a percentage worse than the worst recorded NHL shooting %s of the last 10 years (didn't go farther back but can't imagine it gets worse given the eras). That's...not sustainable unless Trevor Lewis is taking 4/5 of our shots.

Obviously shooting % in and of itself is not something to look at in a vacuum, but I think you see my argument. We're getting volume shots AND high-danger scoring opportunities.

 

[BigKing]

I mean, I'm nitpicking, but Mersch/Versteeg = at least King/Nolan, and who knows what other shenanigans DL has up his sleeve. The difference is we have 'better' scoring depth than 2012 though a catalyst like gabork or Carter wasn't necessarily added, I agree.

Agree that it is nitpicking, but King had how many goals in the playoffs that season? More than Versteeg's entire playoff career, right

It is easy to look at these two now and forget that they were a huge shot in the arm. Could happen with Mersch/Versteeg but, point remains there is nothing like adding Carter/Gaborik/Toffolli/Pearson except for getting Gaborik back which I don't believe will happen prior to season's end.

As for more scoring depth, I disagree. Richards was still good back then, Brown was a beast and Penner woke up in time. If the argument includes Gaborik then okay, but I'm not so sure the current squad being iced has more depth. Probably nitpicking now on my part.

I'm ceding the Pacific because the Ducks are a better squad than us right now without Gaborik. Doesn't mean they would win a series against the Kings, but they should be able to overtake LA for the division: especially with two more games head-to-head.

 

[BigKing]

Ugh, had a nice post going but closed tab -_-

Was just going to say, to add to the above, I think we're going to break through offensively and soon. Even despite the Boston game, we're at a historically low shooting % and there's no way that sticks, imo. Unless you think we're worse than the 2015 Coyotes and the 2014 Sabres et. al., in which case you should just jump ship immediately.

historical perspective:

2016: Kings, 6.02% (30th in NHL); Ducks, 6.08% (29th, and trending up hard); Sabres, 6.17% (28th, .15 better than us).

2015: Kings, 7.54% (17th in NHL); last was Arizona at 5.72%, 29th Carolina at 6.15%.

2014: Kings, 6.51% (29th in NHL); last was Buffalo at 5.84%. 28th was NYR at 6.66% (again, .15 jump--and guess who was in the SCF )

2013: Kings, 7.59% (19th in NHL); last was Florida at 5.77, 29th Ottawa at 6.01.

2012: Kings, 6.03% (yes, better than now), 30th. 29th was Minnesota at 6.27.

2011 Kings jump up massively mostly due to pre-Sutter imo, but 8.2% = 7th in the league.



Since Jan first, we're shooting 5.5%--or 1/3 of a percentage worse than the worst recorded NHL shooting %s of the last 10 years (didn't go farther back but can't imagine it gets worse given the eras). That's...not sustainable unless Trevor Lewis is taking 4/5 of our shots.

Obviously shooting % in and of itself is not something to look at in a vacuum, but I think you see my argument. We're getting volume shots AND high-danger scoring opportunities.

This is what I hung my hat on during the horrors of December '13 and January '14. Agree on the vacuum comment as I'm not sure how you'd be able to show how the additions of Carter/Gaborik et al not only directly influenced an uptick in shooting percentage but also indirectly influenced it by allowing Sutter to slot everyone in the right spot.

I hate Versteeg's game so I'm down on him doing anything but hopefully his insertion to the lineup will help enough until #12 is back.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

This is what I hung my hat on during the horrors of December '13 and January '14. Agree on the vacuum comment as I'm not sure how you'd be able to show how the additions of Carter/Gaborik et al not only directly influenced an uptick in shooting percentage but also indirectly influenced it by allowing Sutter to slot everyone in the right spot.

I hate Versteeg's game so I'm down on him doing anything but hopefully his insertion to the lineup will help enough until #12 is back.

Good point.

2012 LA Kings pre-carter: 5.7%. post carter: 7.1%, then 7.8% in the playoffs.

2014 kings pre-gaborik: 6.1%. Post gaborik: 7.9%, then 8.9% in the playoffs.

Then again, this year's team has both of those guys and a host of good talent--the guys UNDER the threshold are the bottom six essentially, the guys in the top six are mostly performing very well. Kris Versteeg is a career 11% shooter so if we get even 2/3 of that we're good in that regard, if he keeps Vinny high, it may be the same result

I'd also like to think SOME of it is just bearing down hard on rebounds and grinding harder (lotta fly bys--Sutter directed? Just my hypothesis), but that's not provable by anything but circumstantial evidence as it's the mythical 'switch flip.' Our playoff shooting percentages have typically shot up by 2% in those good years (2013 it actually dropped, heh).

 

[AlphaBravo]

I wonder what the asking price was for Hamhuis? Apparently he was open to being traded to a contender. Shocks me that Vancouver did not get something for him and is going to just let him walk in the summer. I suspect the rental price was a 1st and prospect.

 

[Reclamation Project]

No, he wants to re-sign in Vancouver which makes Bennings decision making even more laughable. Trade him, get assets, possibly get him a ring, and then sign him again. ****ing clown.