Speculation: Trade Deadline Options

[Raccoon Jesus]

I'm glad we're back to pretty much blowing it all up.

TRade Carter. great. Not gonna find another elite #2C at that price ever. What do we pay his replacement?

If this team sucks when it's time, you would even have to entertain the silly thought above of trading Doughty, he'll walk to Toronto or some other team who WILL pay him. REAlly all the other pieces aren't going ot get you valuable future assets anyway, so really all this is advocating is blowing it all up so we CANT make the playoff and hope for years that picks and the lottery can save us when really we're likely to never see a player like Doughty or maybe even Kopitar again. No self respecting tenured GM is gonna career suicide like that for very very obvious reasons.

No thanks, give me the team that is firmly in the playoff race despite **** luck and injuries that can make some noise because they still have an elite core.

 

[theMajor]

Carter's contract is perfect, he gets 7M this year, 6 next and 5.5 the season after then it drops to 3/2/2M per accordingly . why anyone would want to trade him now is ****ing beyond me. so many arm-chair GM's and so little common sense

 

[theMajor]

When DL had no pressure and was in rebuild mode, he was awesome!

But the real test is maintaining that level of play and he's been a ****ing disaster.

building a Stanley cup winning hockey club is hard enough in itself... maintaining that level of success is an even greater challenge and something that less than a handful of GMs have done in the modern day NHL. Futa's time has yet to come...Id give Dean at least another two seasons before anything happens upper-management wise

 

[Stimpythecat]

I am trying to see what DL may have planned for 2017-2018 and summer 2018. I think I have an idea of where he may be going.

But to do that I need to figure out RFA contracts for guys this summer for 2017-2018. I know Toffoli and Pearson will get raises of about $5 million.

But I don't know about: (current $)
Shore ($600,000)
Andreoff ($587,500)
Gravel ($667,500)
LaDue ($825,000)
Brodzinski ($808,750)
Mersch ($786,667)

Kempe signed for $894,167

I know contracts can be buried in Ontario up to $950,000. And one or two may not make the team next season. But figuring out these RFAs is what I don't know enough to do. Anyone want to help? I am looking at $1 million each but that is obviously a guess.

 

[KINGS17]

What do you guys think would be an acceptable return for Carter?

I also worry that trading Carter would be a sign that the new direction the team will be headed in is not something a competitive guy like Drew Doughty would be on board with, and it could complicate matters when his contract is up.

The team certainly does need a retooling though, but Jeff Carter is probably among the last names I'd consider moving.

Before doing something as radical as trading Carter, Dean would have to speak with Doughty to make sure he is on board with it, because Doughty would be the cornerstone of the franchise for the next 8-10 years.

Trading a player like Carter doesn't work if Doughty isn't prepared to endure some painful years in terms of losing to have the Kings rebuild around him.

I don't believe the Kings are contenders this season or in the next few years as they are currently configured, so it might be the way to go. No sense wasting Carter's best remaining years on a team unable to contend for the cup when he could net a huge return in a trade. This team is not on the upswing and young as it was in 2012. The odds of it making some noise in the playoffs this season are very slim. Add to that the possibility Kopitar's offensive production may not bounce back as far as Dean needs it to, and Quick has now had a few injuries since 2012 and will likely start showing his age and I think it may be time to admit this window is closed.

In any trade for Carter I think the Kings should be shopping for these things:

- A future #1 goaltender under 25 years of age
- An A-list young forward
- A 1st round pick, or the best remaining prospect on the other team's roster

The team making the trade would likely have to be in the same position as the Kings were in when they acquired Carter.

It's a shame Dean doesn't have a time machine though because his options are severely limited after some of his recent moves.

 

[SCARFACE909]

Unless the Kings absolutely flop like the Avalanche this year in coming seasons there's no reason to trade Carter, dude should end his career as a King.

 

[YP44]

Complaining about Dustin Brown and then eager to acquire Bobby "don't give a f***" Ryan with bigger cap hit.

this...I said on the other thread I have no desire for a Brown for Ryan 1 for 1 deal.

 

[AlphaBravo]

Rebuilding doesn't make sense at this stage. We have the elements to be a cup contender again, and are just missing some secondary cast, like another top 6 forward, and a 3C. Also, we need a year or two for our young defensemen to develop and get solid NHL experience.

If we blew this team up now, we would still be on the hook for the contracts of Brown and Gaborik, and may not be able to find another elite 1C and 1D in the draft for 5 or more years.

Toronto and Edmonton got lucky drafting Matthews and McDavid, but there may not be such generational talents available via draft for many years, and if there is, we may not fall so far down in the standings to get such a player.

I know things don't seem so great now, but many teams would kill to have Kopitar, Carter, Doughty, Toffoli and Pearson on their team. Hopefully Kempe and/or Brodzinski can fill the missing top 6 role, and Dowd fills the 3C role. Or, if LaDue shows that he is a reliable 2nd pairing defenseman next year, we can trade one of Muzzin or Martinez for a top 6 winger.

 

[KingsFan7824]

No thanks, give me the team that is firmly in the playoff race despite **** luck and injuries that can make some noise because they still have an elite core.

Each of the last 3 years, that elite core is taking another knock. Missing the playoffs, and not even being able to win a must win game against Edmonton. Losing a 12 point division lead, and then losing a 3-0 lead at home to the Jets in the last game of the year with the division on the line, with Quick. A 17-23 record in regulation this year, Kopitar 11th on the team in goal scoring, and in the race because enough of the rest of the West isn't great, and their league best OT record.

Is that elite? Can they make noise? They no longer have the benefit of the doubt as an answer with these questions.

Carter's contract is perfect, he gets 7M this year, 6 next and 5.5 the season after then it drops to 3/2/2M per accordingly . why anyone would want to trade him now is ****ing beyond me. so many arm-chair GM's and so little common sense

It's not Carter, it's the rest of the team. I'm not sure people want to see him traded, and of course he's not going to be traded any time soon, but we're not in 14-15 anymore, and saying they're tired after so many playoff rounds over the previous seasons.

There aren't that many players on the team that could bring back the value that's been lost in other trades, and that they no longer have with Brown and Gaborik. One of those players would be Carter though. If you're looking out over the next couple years, will things get that much better for the Kings? Who is improving? Who has upside left? Where is the cap space going to come from after having to pay Toffoli and Pearson?

 

[KingsFan7824]

Rebuilding doesn't make sense at this stage. We have the elements to be a cup contender again, and are just missing some secondary cast, like another top 6 forward, and a 3C. Also, we need a year or two for our young defensemen to develop and get solid NHL experience.

With no cap space to address those concerns. I don't think Martinez returns a real top 6 forward, maybe Muzzin though, but then you certainly need one of those young defensemen to solidify themselves as a top 2/4 guy, while they're still cheap.

Bringing back the same team, just with a more expensive Toffoli and Pearson, and a couple young guys from Ontario, will basically zap their cap space for next year. That's with no King, and whoever they lose to Vegas. It'll all come down to internal development, and Kopitar, Brown, Carter, and Gaborik just get older.

If we blew this team up now, we would still be on the hook for the contracts of Brown and Gaborik, and may not be able to find another elite 1C and 1D in the draft for 5 or more years.

But if they were to blow up the team now, what Brown and Gaborik make isn't important at that point. Then you just ride out those contracts, and build up the prospect base for the next 4 or 5 years.

They're not going to blow the team up, because things like that don't happen often. Most teams, most of the time, will hang onto any hope of being competitive, and that's what the Kings will keep doing. Plus when a team does start rebuilding, it's usually more gradual, over months, maybe years. Nobody trades half a team in a day.

 

[AlphaBravo]

With no cap space to address those concerns. I don't think Martinez returns a real top 6 forward, maybe Muzzin though, but then you certainly need one of those young defensemen to solidify themselves as a top 2/4 guy, while they're still cheap.

Bringing back the same team, just with a more expensive Toffoli and Pearson, and a couple young guys from Ontario, will basically zap their cap space for next year. That's with no King, and whoever they lose to Vegas. It'll all come down to internal development, and Kopitar, Brown, Carter, and Gaborik just get older.



But if they were to blow up the team now, what Brown and Gaborik make isn't important at that point. Then you just ride out those contracts, and build up the prospect base for the next 4 or 5 years.

They're not going to blow the team up, because things like that don't happen often. Most teams, most of the time, will hang onto any hope of being competitive, and that's what the Kings will keep doing. Plus when a team does start rebuilding, it's usually more gradual, over months, maybe years. Nobody trades half a team in a day.

Another thing to consider about this team is that a lot of players are under performing. If we don't make it to the playoffs this year, or get bounced in the first round, the Kings should consider getting another coach that can make these under performing players better again. Like you said, you can't trade half the team, but you can replace one coach. A different system may do wonders for Kopitar's offense, or that of Brown or Gaborik, for example.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Another thing to consider about this team is that a lot of players are under performing. If we don't make it to the playoffs this year, or get bounced in the first round, the Kings should consider getting another coach that can make these under performing players better again. Like you said, you can't trade half the team, but you can replace one coach. A different system may do wonders for Kopitar's offense, or that of Brown or Gaborik, for example.

The only issue there is that it's not like Kopitar, Brown, and Gaborik haven't produced in Sutter's system before. Is Carter not listening to Sutter this year? Toffoli has produced in Sutter's system.

The thing we all loved about the Kings when they were winning was that it was a very basic concept of competition. There was nothing fancy. Line up, and my side is just going to beat your side. We're going to make the smarter plays, the quicker plays. We're just going to execute better than you, and keep doing it over, and over, and over again. Then if it doesn't work, we'll do it again. Today, most of those same guys are apparently mentally fragile, according to the potential MVP of the league.

That's the basis of any system a coach runs; execution. There are only so many ways to play hockey. Gaborik scored 14 goals in the 2014 playoffs because he got to the net consistently. He hasn't done that since the 14-15 season. Maybe he can't anymore, but a new coach isn't going to make him faster, or even more willing.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The only issue there is that it's not like Kopitar, Brown, and Gaborik haven't produced in Sutter's system before. Is Carter not listening to Sutter this year? Toffoli has produced in Sutter's system.

The thing we all loved about the Kings when they were winning was that it was a very basic concept of competition. There was nothing fancy. Line up, and my side is just going to beat your side. We're going to make the smarter plays, the quicker plays. We're just going to execute better than you, and keep doing it over, and over, and over again. Then if it doesn't work, we'll do it again. Today, most of those same guys are apparently mentally fragile, according to the potential MVP of the league.

That's the basis of any system a coach runs; execution. There are only so many ways to play hockey. Gaborik scored 14 goals in the 2014 playoffs because he got to the net consistently. He hasn't done that since the 14-15 season. Maybe he can't anymore, but a new coach isn't going to make him faster, or even more willing.

I agree with all of this.

And it seems you're agreeing with AlphaBravo that it's not a raw ability thing, but it is an execution thing. It's problematic because it's hard to tell if it's a coaching 'issue' (i.e. stale voice) or a player issue (i.e. declining performance). To me, when it's practically everybody, it's a coaching issue, but that's just me.

 

[rajuabju]

If you are trading Carter, might as well trade Kopitar and Quick too.

 

[johnjm22]

The only issue there is that it's not like Kopitar, Brown, and Gaborik haven't produced in Sutter's system before. Is Carter not listening to Sutter this year? Toffoli has produced in Sutter's system.

The thing we all loved about the Kings when they were winning was that it was a very basic concept of competition. There was nothing fancy. Line up, and my side is just going to beat your side. We're going to make the smarter plays, the quicker plays. We're just going to execute better than you, and keep doing it over, and over, and over again. Then if it doesn't work, we'll do it again. Today, most of those same guys are apparently mentally fragile, according to the potential MVP of the league.

That's the basis of any system a coach runs; execution. There are only so many ways to play hockey. Gaborik scored 14 goals in the 2014 playoffs because he got to the net consistently. He hasn't done that since the 14-15 season. Maybe he can't anymore, but a new coach isn't going to make him faster, or even more willing.

It's not necessarily about the system. Kopitar, Doughty and Brown had some of their best individual offensive years under Terry Murray. The Kings were a top 10 offense under Terry.

The reason why a coaching change often sparks a team is because it's a change. It's psychological. Things get stale. A new voice can be refreshing and energizing. There's many examples of this.

 

[Sens Vader]

if some are not interested in a Brown for Ryan swap,

would Gaborik + Martinez for Ryan + make more sense?

if you like the idea or not could someone give me the rundown on how Gaborik has looked as of late, Martinez as well?

 

[Kingspiracy]

if some are not interested in a Brown for Ryan swap,

would Gaborik + Martinez for Ryan + make more sense?

if you like the idea or not could someone give me the rundown on how Gaborik has looked as of late, Martinez as well?

I wouldn't do that either. I just dont think Ryan makes sense.
Gaborik has been a bit invisible this year, he seems to be a bit too peripheral for my liking. He has come back from an injury so he could still get "hot", but as he ages he's probably going to slow down.

Martinez has been ok, I don't think the Muzzin /Martinez pairing works that well though (not used much recently). He's playing his off side pretty damn well though. I'd like to see us get a strong rhd to fit in behind Doughty to balance the D pairings better (since the loss of Voynov) but our D seems to be holding up reasonably well as is.

 

[Ollie Weeks]

I agree with this, even though many would say moving Carter is a big mistake.

I look at it this way. Can Carter continue to perform somewhat close to this level for the next 3 or 4 years? Maybe, or just somewhat under his current level of performance.

Will that type of performance by Carter, even if everything goes right with the current batch of prospects the Kings have, get them back into cup contention in the next 3 or 4 years? Probably not.

So, I would trade Carter to a team on the verge of breaking through for some of their best young players. Could be that type of deal is more likely to happen after the expansion draft.

This bit seems illogical, or at least highly contentious. I disagree with it.

 

[theMajor]

It's not necessarily about the system. Kopitar, Doughty and Brown had some of their best individual offensive years under Terry Murray. The Kings were a top 10 offense under Terry.

The reason why a coaching change often sparks a team is because it's a change. It's psychological. Things get stale. A new voice can be refreshing and energizing. There's many examples of this.

It'd be an interesting study for sure. I cant say I disagree but I really, really hate how firing your coach is the status quo for GMs with underachieving teams. Coaches are vastly important but its not like the core of this team is inexperienced and incapable of doing their job. They know what it takes to win, they just arent doing it consistently enough

 

[WrinkledPossum]

Coyotes fan coming in peace.

Obviously scoring is a bit of an issue for the Kings, personally I think it'll improve down the stretch for the Kings with Kopitar and Toffoli finding their game.

I think Vrbata could be a piece that could help the Kings. Quick (once healthy) can get hot and carry the team, and if LA adds another good forward I think they could be a serious contender.

Would Vrbata be of interest, and if so what would LA be willing to give up? I think a second is the asking price, but a 3rd + a prospect could get him.

 

[johnjm22]

Coyotes fan coming in peace.

Obviously scoring is a bit of an issue for the Kings, personally I think it'll improve down the stretch for the Kings with Kopitar and Toffoli finding their game.

I think Vrbata could be a piece that could help the Kings. Quick (once healthy) can get hot and carry the team, and if LA adds another good forward I think they could be a serious contender.

Would Vrbata be of interest, and if so what would LA be willing to give up? I think a second is the asking price, but a 3rd + a prospect could get him.

Lombardi has already implied that they're not looking for rentals. Maybe if Vrbata was super cheap Lombardi would make an exception, but I don't see that happening.

 

[KingsFan7824]

I agree with all of this.

And it seems you're agreeing with AlphaBravo that it's not a raw ability thing, but it is an execution thing. It's problematic because it's hard to tell if it's a coaching 'issue' (i.e. stale voice) or a player issue (i.e. declining performance). To me, when it's practically everybody, it's a coaching issue, but that's just me.

Like you said, we can't know for sure either way. We're all just guessing. It is practically everybody, but it's not the first time for everybody. Gaborik wasn't great last year before he got hurt. Kopitar, 16 goals two years ago. Brown at least looks better this year, even if the goals aren't there. Muzzin didn't look good at the World Cup either. I'm sure Sutter would like Doughty to get his shot through more often, so I'll put that on Doughty's shoulders.

It's not necessarily about the system. Kopitar, Doughty and Brown had some of their best individual offensive years under Terry Murray. The Kings were a top 10 offense under Terry.

The reason why a coaching change often sparks a team is because it's a change. It's psychological. Things get stale. A new voice can be refreshing and energizing. There's many examples of this.

Examples of it not kick starting a team either. Why are the Hawks not sick of Quenneville gruffing and grumbling all the time? He's been there longer than Sutter's been here. Kopitar had the 3rd highest goal total of his career under Sutter. Brown had 18 goals in 46 games in the lockout year under Sutter.

Sutter being fired is about as likely as Lombardi starting a rebuilding project. He'll be the coach until at least half way through next season, unless he chooses to go back to his ranch. If the Kings are an average team next year, maybe Sutter then gets the call one day at practice in the middle of January or something. There's zero indication he's in any trouble now though, so the players might as well suck it up.

 

[deeshamrock]

I'm glad we're back to pretty much blowing it all up.

TRade Carter. great. Not gonna find another elite #2C at that price ever. What do we pay his replacement?

If this team sucks when it's time, you would even have to entertain the silly thought above of trading Doughty, he'll walk to Toronto or some other team who WILL pay him. REAlly all the other pieces aren't going ot get you valuable future assets anyway, so really all this is advocating is blowing it all up so we CANT make the playoff and hope for years that picks and the lottery can save us when really we're likely to never see a player like Doughty or maybe even Kopitar again. No self respecting tenured GM is gonna career suicide like that for very very obvious reasons.

No thanks, give me the team that is firmly in the playoff race despite **** luck and injuries that can make some noise because they still have an elite core.

I don't think DL wants to trade Carter. Carter's a goal scoring machine whose success is not tied to a system or coach. He'll score in any system because he flies over that blue line and snipes. That kind of talent is not dependent on a coach or system. And DL won't find better value at top center than he has in Carter. However, if he is a savvy GM, a smart one, he's somebody who recognizes hockey is a business and the players are commodities and like any succesfully business, you sell high. If you told me that Adam Larsson would get you Taylor Hall a year ago, I'd have looked at you as if you had sprung a second head . I'm sure Shero was surprised when he got that call as well. So you never know who is willing to overpay.

WHich is why the thought of trading Doughty is not silly at all. Could the Kings afford the 10 M plus he'll garner? How would that affect them upgrading the other vital positions on a team? Next summer will have DD entering the final year of his contract. This summer most of the Reign need new contracts, including players that might be Kings by next, such as Brodz, Merch, Amadio, and La Due. With TT and TP's deals, and the rest, it doesn't leave a lot leftover. So what happens if you give DD that 10M when that new deal hits, your 2nd line center is 36 and AK is 33. AK is signed but aging and where is the top $$ for a top skilled 2nd line center? let alone the elusive top 6 winger that isn't in place yet.

For that matter, after 11 years with the same club, and in 3 years the Kings might be on the downward side, why wouldn't he sign with the Leafs? No secret he loves Toronto, Babcock and Papa Lou have that team ahead of their development curve. IN 2 years, they will be a division contender on the way up. What Canadian player wouldn't want the chance to bring the Cup back to home of hockey and be a part of team with that kind of talent and give them the leadership and direction that is needed.
It's all a matter of being a good businessman. DL in the past has projected out into the future by a few years, so I would think trades are a part of that, to make the team better by then.

Elite core- disagree there, a good solid core, as do most good teams. But elite? They haven't shown that over the past 3 seasons. They've been too inconsistent and I don't expect that will change as long as Sutter is here.

 

[johnjm22]

Examples of it not kick starting a team either. Why are the Hawks not sick of Quenneville gruffing and grumbling all the time? He's been there longer than Sutter's been here. Kopitar had the 3rd highest goal total of his career under Sutter. Brown had 18 goals in 46 games in the lockout year under Sutter.

Of course it doesn't guarantee a team will be sparked, but many times it does work. It's a more sane move to make than blowing up your roster like some are advocating.

There are very few coaches that stay in one place for a long time and continue to be effective. Most of the time a team will run out of gas on a coach and a change is made. Sutter is I think the 3rd longest tenured coach in the league right now.

The fact that these guys have performed well under Sutter before is irrelevant.

The Kings are exhibiting symptoms of a team that needs a coaching change. I've seen it a hundred times before.

I love Sutter and I'm not advocating for his removal just yet, but if this team continues to under perform much longer I will be.

 

[damacles1156]

Lombardi sealed the fate of this team, with the Kopitar/Brown/Quick/Gabo contracts.

There is no going back, only forward, with the enormous contract lengths and cap hits.

No sense in rebuilding with Doughty entering his prime years.