Speculation: Trade Deadline: March 8, 2024

[Kaibur]

One of the reasons it's very difficult to put a timeline on a rebuild is that it depends if and when you land a 1st or 2nd overall pick that jumps immediately to the NHL and starts to have an impact. That drastically can speed up the timeline for a rebuild (as well as the entire nature and design of it).

Since we've never landed a 1st or 2nd overall, our timeline is longer. And it will likely follow the blueprints of Stanley Cup Championship rosters that didn't have a homegrown 1st or 2nd overall on the roster.

 

[rt]

One of the reasons it's very difficult to put a timeline on a rebuild is that it depends if and when you land a 1st or 2nd overall pick that jumps immediately to the NHL and starts to have an impact. That drastically can speed up the timeline for a rebuild (as well as the entire nature and design of it).

Since we've never landed a 1st or 2nd overall, our timeline is longer. And it will likely follow the blueprints of Stanley Cup Championship rosters that didn't have a homegrown 1st or 2nd overall on the roster.

Hopefully we get Celebrini.

 

[Canis Latrans]

I did read the articles but those phases are as vague as possible. These phases are not specific or measurable. No time line for success.

So his plan is draft players, surround them with vets till the young players are good and then win the Stanley cup. Ohh and hire him.

I understand that this is hockey futures and really a draft forum but kinda sick of rebuilds. Want to talk about hockey trades (not selling for picks and future s), fighting for playoffs, rivals but not for tanking, skipping the draft because we invested in today to win. Some times tomorrow never gets here. Hello SLC

He could get us to the playoffs much quicker for sure, but there would be a cost and that cost would be draft capital and prospects. The team isn't competitive enough yet to attract free agents and without the arena sorted out, top tier players aren't going to willingly sign on. If he spent the picks now it's unlikely they stay a playoff team for a string of seasons and also unlikely they are a legitimate threat in the playoffs. There just isn't enough draft capital to trade for what the team needs. You're also buying the most expensive assets in teambuilding. Once that flares out, the team craters back down again with the fanbase hanging it hats on the glory years of 2-3 playoffs in a row with an appearance in the 2nd round.

Armstrong is intentionally stockpiling us halfway to the moon by focusing on the long-term. By establishing a strong core with promising prospects waiting in the wings, it means the team can make the playoffs on a regular basis and he can selectively add what's needed to go for the Cup.

For Meruelo, he wants Armstrong to build him a continually strong contender like how the Sharks were for well more than a decade. That's what the market needs, high probability that when the team is good, it continues to be good. That's how you build a sustained fanbase that stays locked in with the team for life.

Meruelo and Armstrong understand that to put the Coyotes on the best footing they will ever have had, competitively and economically, it means you don't take a shortcut.

 

[Kaibur]

Hopefully we get Celebrini.

It would change the trajectory of the franchise. It would also make for a fascinating rebuild to win a lottery late in the timeline and after so much draft capital has already been accumulated.

Plus, a Celebrini/Simashev vs. Bedard/Silayev franchise battle over the next few seasons sounds awesome.

Seems pretty straightforward. Let's get a stadium and Celebrini and never look back.

 

[rt]

It would change the trajectory of the franchise. It would also make for a fascinating rebuild to win a lottery late in the timeline and after so much draft capital has already been accumulated.

Plus, a Celebrini/Simashev vs. Bedard/Silayev franchise battle over the next few seasons sounds awesome.

Seems pretty straightforward. Let's get a stadium and Celebrini and never look back.

Good things to those that wait, and all that.

 

[cobra427]

He could get us to the playoffs much quicker for sure, but there would be a cost and that cost would be draft capital and prospects. The team isn't competitive enough yet to attract free agents and without the arena sorted out, top tier players aren't going to willingly sign on. If he spent the picks now it's unlikely they stay a playoff team for a string of seasons and also unlikely they are a legitimate threat in the playoffs. There just isn't enough draft capital to trade for what the team needs. You're also buying the most expensive assets in teambuilding. Once that flares out, the team craters back down again with the fanbase hanging it hats on the glory years of 2-3 playoffs in a row with an appearance in the 2nd round.

Armstrong is intentionally stockpiling us halfway to the moon by focusing on the long-term. By establishing a strong core with promising prospects waiting in the wings, it means the team can make the playoffs on a regular basis and he can selectively add what's needed to go for the Cup.

For Meruelo, he wants Armstrong to build him a continually strong contender like how the Sharks were for well more than a decade. That's what the market needs, high probability that when the team is good, it continues to be good. That's how you build a sustained fanbase that stays locked in with the team for life.

Meruelo and Armstrong understand that to put the Coyotes on the best footing they will ever have had, competitively and economically, it means you don't take a shortcut.

What if the team goes say 2-15 the rest of the way? I would say the last 20 games are a pretty epic collapse. This isn't all on the players or our lack of talent. When is BA or Bear held accountable? What if we finish with 67 points?

It seems like the team is just mailing it in. Maybe the "we are building for the future" mantra has set in with the players? Its pretty clear this years record doesn't matter, most fans on this board think that, apparently BA thinks that too, and Bear, well hard to change the goal: future counts, today does not.

BA kicking the can so far down the road is getting exactly that now. If there is a culture problem, it starts at the top, this is more than just a young teams struggles, more to it then that......

 

[Canis Latrans]

What if the team goes say 2-15 the rest of the way? I would say the last 20 games are a pretty epic collapse. This isn't all on the players or our lack of talent. When is BA or Bear held accountable? What if we finish with 67 points?

It seems like the team is just mailing it in. Maybe the "we are building for the future" mantra has set in with the players? Its pretty clear this years record doesn't matter, most fans on this board think that, apparently BA thinks that too, and Bear, well hard to change the goal: future counts, today does not.

BA kicking the can so far down the road is getting exactly that now. If there is a culture problem, it starts at the top, this is more than just a young teams struggles, more to it then that......

They don't answer to points in the standings this season so they won't be "held accountable." Tourigny's job is to make sure the core and young players learn their limits and play in a way that will let them grow into the best player they can be. If they turn it over and it leads to a high chance scoring opportunity for the other side, they can live with it so long as it's not reckless and a completely improbable play. The players need to learn their limits and proper decision-making. You don't get that by tightening up defensively so you can lose 3-1 instead of 7-4.

Making mistakes is how they learn. They're gaining something more important than points in the standings this season.

What is this culture problem you speak of?

 

[Foggy1097]

What if the team goes say 2-15 the rest of the way? I would say the last 20 games are a pretty epic collapse. This isn't all on the players or our lack of talent. When is BA or Bear held accountable? What if we finish with 67 points?

It seems like the team is just mailing it in. Maybe the "we are building for the future" mantra has set in with the players? Its pretty clear this years record doesn't matter, most fans on this board think that, apparently BA thinks that too, and Bear, well hard to change the goal: future counts, today does not.

BA kicking the can so far down the road is getting exactly that now. If there is a culture problem, it starts at the top, this is more than just a young teams struggles, more to it then that......

I think you are making this too much of a black and white issue. Losses does not mean the culture sucks or is eroding. I’ve watched almost every game or at least large parts of them and I wouldn’t say they are mailing it in. I will say that there games where it does look that way sometimes, especially with certain players. But, we also don’t know who has nagging injuries that may be affecting them, and sometimes there nights where teams just flat out don’t have legs or energy and get beat…it happens to every team. But the players aren’t excused entirely…we want to see more and I’m sure Bear does as well from certain guys. This is why we want Schmaltz swapped out with a talented player who has more heart. Guenther has looked more engaged in board battles and on the forecheck recently than Schmaltz and he’s a rookie. Crouse should play much bigger and meaner and hit as much as McBain, but he doesn’t.

I would disagree with the implication that BA and Bear thinks the future counts and today doesn’t. Every day counts, and they see these players every day. Each day counts for them regarding their habits, how hard they are working, how they are building mental toughness, and how they are working to hone their craft. Each day matters greatly, but every win and loss really doesn’t at this point in their timeline. It’s more about the process than the destination of this season. That will hopefully change soon. If they were still in a wildcard hunt the attitude would be a little different probably. Maybe next year or the year after there will be a better chance of that.

 

[Mangosteen]

Kicking the can so far down the road is getting exactly that now. If there is a culture problem, it starts at the top, this is more than just a young teams struggles, more to it then that......

Just listen to the dread in there voices after game interviews.

 

[cobra427]

They don't answer to points in the standings this season so they won't be "held accountable." Tourigny's job is to make sure the core and young players learn their limits and play in a way that will let them grow into the best player they can be. If they turn it over and it leads to a high chance scoring opportunity for the other side, they can live with it so long as it's not reckless and a completely improbable play. The players need to learn their limits and proper decision-making. You don't get that by tightening up defensively so you can lose 3-1 instead of 7-4.

Making mistakes is how they learn. They're gaining something more important than points in the standings this season.

What is this culture problem you speak of?

The one where you have 4 years in a row at 72 points or less, the one where you lose 14 straight at this time of year without any key injuries. Again, I ask, at what point is Bear/BA going to be held accountable, this year next year, 2030? When exactly, and by what measures?

 

[cobra427]

I think you are making this too much of a black and white issue. Losses does not mean the culture sucks or is eroding. I’ve watched almost every game or at least large parts of them and I wouldn’t say they are mailing it in. I will say that there games where it does look that way sometimes, especially with certain players. But, we also don’t know who has nagging injuries that may be affecting them, and sometimes there nights where teams just flat out don’t have legs or energy and get beat…it happens to every team. But the players aren’t excused entirely…we want to see more and I’m sure Bear does as well from certain guys. This is why we want Schmaltz swapped out with a talented player who has more heart. Guenther has looked more engaged in board battles and on the forecheck recently than Schmaltz and he’s a rookie. Crouse should play much bigger and meaner and hit as much as McBain, but he doesn’t.

I would disagree with the implication that BA and Bear thinks the future counts and today doesn’t. Every day counts, and they see these players every day. Each day counts for them regarding their habits, how hard they are working, how they are building mental toughness, and how they are working to hone their craft. Each day matters greatly, but every win and loss really doesn’t at this point in their timeline. It’s more about the process than the destination of this season. That will hopefully change soon. If they were still in a wildcard hunt the attitude would be a little different probably. Maybe next year or the year after there will be a better chance of that.

All teams have nagging injuries, Schmaltz is getting ridiculed because of his salary, Gunts is getting touted because of his "potential". The GM and coach saying, play hard and lets build for the future is really saying we don't care about this season and we don't have high expectations.

BA is getting exactly what the message he sent to the team out of this season. BA should have said " we expect to be in the playoffs or the hunt until the last game of the season. Our goal is the playoffs this year". He never said that. He said we expect to play "meaningful games". You have to believe in a goal before you accomplish it. BA being in year 4 and kicking the can down the road and setting low expectations is part of the problem with on ice expectations and performance.

The coach and the GM have to set the goal for the team. They did, "lets build for the future", this season doesn't matter, the players are responding accordingly.

 

[Jakey53]

I think you are making this too much of a black and white issue. Losses does not mean the culture sucks or is eroding. I’ve watched almost every game or at least large parts of them and I wouldn’t say they are mailing it in. I will say that there games where it does look that way sometimes, especially with certain players. But, we also don’t know who has nagging injuries that may be affecting them, and sometimes there nights where teams just flat out don’t have legs or energy and get beat…it happens to every team. But the players aren’t excused entirely…we want to see more and I’m sure Bear does as well from certain guys. This is why we want Schmaltz swapped out with a talented player who has more heart. Guenther has looked more engaged in board battles and on the forecheck recently than Schmaltz and he’s a rookie. Crouse should play much bigger and meaner and hit as much as McBain, but he doesn’t.

I would disagree with the implication that BA and Bear thinks the future counts and today doesn’t. Every day counts, and they see these players every day. Each day counts for them regarding their habits, how hard they are working, how they are building mental toughness, and how they are working to hone their craft. Each day matters greatly, but every win and loss really doesn’t at this point in their timeline. It’s more about the process than the destination of this season. That will hopefully change soon. If they were still in a wildcard hunt the attitude would be a little different probably. Maybe next year or the year after there will be a better chance of that.

Winning is all that matters to the players. They have a short career in most cases and if they don't see the light at the end of the tunnel we might start to have culture problems. Because of the tight point race, teams in the playoffs and teams fighting for a wild card position started to play "playoff hockey" earlier than usual, in my opinion. That's when our lack of talent reared it's head. You build through the draft, and trades. BA has to make a trade or two to enter the next phase as he puts it. We need really good vets signed long term for stability and to help the kids now and for years to come. Schmaltz isn't perfect but he is our second best player at the moment. One poster bitches about him and all of a sudden he is the scapegoat.

 

[Foggy1097]

Winning is all that matters to the players. They have a short career in most cases and if they don't see the light at the end of the tunnel we might start to have culture problems. Because of the tight point race, teams in the playoffs and teams fighting for a wild card position started to play "playoff hockey" earlier than usual, in my opinion. That's when our lack of talent reared it's head. You build through the draft, and trades. BA has to make a trade or two to enter the next phase as he puts it. We need really good vets signed long term for stability and to help the kids now and for years to come. Schmaltz isn't perfect but he is our second best player at the moment. One poster bitches about him and all of a sudden he is the scapegoat.

Schmaltz is not our second best player because he can put up points…not even close. Guenther has been a better player than him for multiple weeks now. Durzi is a better player who tries harder more consistently. Crouse has more goals than Schmaltz and brings a more consistent overall game. Strong argument to be made that Kerfoot is actually a more valuable player than Schmaltz because of all that he does and also has around 40 points himself…

 

[Foggy1097]

All teams have nagging injuries, Schmaltz is getting ridiculed because of his salary, Gunts is getting touted because of his "potential". The GM and coach saying, play hard and lets build for the future is really saying we don't care about this season and we don't have high expectations.

BA is getting exactly what the message he sent to the team out of this season. BA should have said " we expect to be in the playoffs or the hunt until the last game of the season. Our goal is the playoffs this year". He never said that. He said we expect to play "meaningful games". You have to believe in a goal before you accomplish it. BA being in year 4 and kicking the can down the road and setting low expectations is part of the problem with on ice expectations and performance.

The coach and the GM have to set the goal for the team. They did, "lets build for the future", this season doesn't matter, the players are responding accordingly.

You either can’t read well, don’t watch the games, or both. Schmaltz isn’t getting ridiculed for his salary. If he is it’s because he isn’t earning it. He plays soft and lazy almost every night. Guenther has been more efficient and looked better to me than him for two weeks now at least. Guenther is getting praise because of how he’s playing. Just listen to Bear talk about him. His praise is effusive. It’s not because of potential it’s because of what he’s doing right now. I get fans on here are impatient, tired and frustrated watching a losing hockey team…I am too. But there is also a LOT of shortsightedness going on and a lot of turning a blind eye to the building blocks that are necessary to build something great for a long time. The Yotes have rushed every single rebuild they’ve ever undergone and rushed just about every single solid prospect as well…so this looks foreign to us, but I don’t think that makes it wrong or bad. I think it’s the right way to go about it.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Schmaltz is not our second best player because he can put up points…not even close. Guenther has been a better player than him for multiple weeks now. Durzi is a better player who tries harder more consistently. Crouse has more goals than Schmaltz and brings a more consistent overall game. Strong argument to be made that Kerfoot is actually a more valuable player than Schmaltz because of all that he does and also has around 40 points himself…

Scoring per 60 (5v5) is illuminating. DG has been much better than Schmaltz.

Schmaltz is only slightly better than OB.

Player	G/60	A/60	P/60
Michael Carcone	1.6	0.6	2.21
Lawson Crouse	1.05	0.45	1.5
Clayton Keller	1.02	0.81	1.83
Dylan Guenther	0.75	1.12	1.86
Nick Bjugstad	0.73	1.1	1.83
Jack McBain	0.69	1.38	2.07
Matias Maccelli	0.61	1.5	2.11
Logan Cooley	0.58	0.8	1.38
Jason Zucker	0.49	0.99	1.48
Alex Kerfoot	0.44	1.26	1.7
Michael Kesselring	0.44	0.78	1.22
Nick Schmaltz	0.41	0.89	1.3
Liam O'Brien	0.33	0.88	1.21

 

[rt]

BA is getting exactly what the message he sent to the team out of this season. BA should have said " we expect to be in the playoffs or the hunt until the last game of the season. Our goal is the playoffs this year". He never said that. He said we expect to play "meaningful games". You have to believe in a goal before you accomplish it. BA being in year 4 and kicking the can down the road and setting low expectations is part of the problem with on ice expectations and performance.

The coach and the GM have to set the goal for the team. They did, "let’s build for the future", this season doesn't matter, the players are responding accordingly.

Good points.

You either can’t read well, don’t watch the games, or both. Schmaltz isn’t getting ridiculed for his salary. If he is it’s because he isn’t earning it. He plays soft and lazy almost every night. Guenther has been more efficient and looked better to me than him for two weeks now at least. Guenther is getting praise because of how he’s playing. Just listen to Bear talk about him. His praise is effusive. It’s not because of potential it’s because of what he’s doing right now. I get fans on here are impatient, tired and frustrated watching a losing hockey team…I am too. But there is also a LOT of shortsightedness going on and a lot of turning a blind eye to the building blocks that are necessary to build something great for a long time. The Yotes have rushed every single rebuild they’ve ever undergone and rushed just about every single solid prospect as well…so this looks foreign to us, but I don’t think that makes it wrong or bad. I think it’s the right way to go about it.

Totally agree.

 

[cobra427]

You either can’t read well, don’t watch the games, or both. Schmaltz isn’t getting ridiculed for his salary. If he is it’s because he isn’t earning it. He plays soft and lazy almost every night. Guenther has been more efficient and looked better to me than him for two weeks now at least. Guenther is getting praise because of how he’s playing. Just listen to Bear talk about him. His praise is effusive. It’s not because of potential it’s because of what he’s doing right now. I get fans on here are impatient, tired and frustrated watching a losing hockey team…I am too. But there is also a LOT of shortsightedness going on and a lot of turning a blind eye to the building blocks that are necessary to build something great for a long time. The Yotes have rushed every single rebuild they’ve ever undergone and rushed just about every single solid prospect as well…so this looks foreign to us, but I don’t think that makes it wrong or bad. I think it’s the right way to go about it.

Higher paid vets are always blamed when they don't produce the points they should or used to. Schmaltz isn't the problem, and of course Bear is touting Gunts, it was BAs pick. I do thinks Gunts has improved and is playing well, how does that really help us anyway? We have plenty of wingers, easiest position to play, we have a long list of successful young wingers. We need Cs and Ds to succeed.

BA/bear are in no rush to build something great, thats awesome, it turns out the players are following their lead, no rush to play hard or finish out the season, great leadership, no expectations, gets you the great culture we are seeing (year 4 of no expectations).

 

[Foggy1097]

Higher paid vets are always blamed when they don't produce the points they should or used to. Schmaltz isn't the problem, and of course Bear is touting Gunts, it was BAs pick. I do thinks Gunts has improved and is playing well, how does that really help us anyway? We have plenty of wingers, easiest position to play, we have a long list of successful young wingers. We need Cs and Ds to succeed.

BA/bear are in no rush to build something great, thats awesome, it turns out the players are following their lead, no rush to play hard or finish out the season, great leadership, no expectations, gets you the great culture we are seeing (year 4 of no expectations).

Haha Bear is complimentary of Guenther “because he’s BA’s pick, of course.” I will recommend you for the mental gymnastics Olympics. No rush is correct. Rushing is what they’ve done in the past. It failed. It offers a glimmer of hope and excitement for a year or two (Chayka) and then ultimately ends in failure, because it doesn’t work, and has never worked for anyone unless they get a Crosby/McDavid type player. Even then rushing things along still creates more problems than it solves and requires patience while stacking up players.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Tampa Bay's trajectory to their first Stanley Cup:

1997-98 - 44 Pts
1998-99 - 47 Pts
1999-00 - 54 Pts
2000-01 - 59 Pts
2001-02 - 69 Pts
2002-03 - 93 Pts (Playoffs)
2003-04 - 106 Pts (Stanley Cup)

The losing culture they built up over 5 seasons really messed that team up for good!

 

[rt]

Tampa Bay's trajectory to their first Stanley Cup:

1997-98 - 44 Pts
1998-99 - 47 Pts
1999-00 - 54 Pts
2000-01 - 59 Pts
2001-02 - 69 Pts
2002-03 - 93 Pts (Playoffs)
2003-04 - 106 Pts (Stanley Cup)

The losing culture they built up over 5 seasons really messed that team up for good!

This tells me we must get Celebrini.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Tampa Bay's trajectory to their first Stanley Cup:

1997-98 - 44 Pts
1998-99 - 47 Pts
1999-00 - 54 Pts
2000-01 - 59 Pts
2001-02 - 69 Pts
2002-03 - 93 Pts (Playoffs)
2003-04 - 106 Pts (Stanley Cup)

The losing culture they built up over 5 seasons really messed that team up for good!

So, two years from now? Sweet. We'll win the Cup in the Mullett!

 

[rt]

I agree with @cobra427 that I want to see BA and Bear take a different approach with public comments.

But I generally agree with almost everything @Foggy1097 has said.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

So, two years from now? Sweet. We'll win the Cup in the Mullett!

Lol. Just pointing out that a team's culture isn't permanent, not setting any timeline.

 

[Jakey53]

Schmaltz is not our second best player because he can put up points…not even close. Guenther has been a better player than him for multiple weeks now. Durzi is a better player who tries harder more consistently. Crouse has more goals than Schmaltz and brings a more consistent overall game. Strong argument to be made that Kerfoot is actually a more valuable player than Schmaltz because of all that he does and also has around 40 points himself…

All in the eye of the beholder. I would say Schmaltz is arguably our second best player, but he still is getting scapegoated for the teams problems. Durzi makes more defensive mistakes than any of our D, Crouse has gone MIA the last month, and Guenther shouldn't be compared after a couple months of NHL play. Kerfoot I would say you have a good case. Love Kerfoot, but I still say if you want to start pointing the finger, there are many players you can look at, not only Schmaltz.

 

[cobra427]

Haha Bear is complimentary of Guenther “because he’s BA’s pick, of course.” I will recommend you for the mental gymnastics Olympics. No rush is correct. Rushing is what they’ve done in the past. It failed. It offers a glimmer of hope and excitement for a year or two (Chayka) and then ultimately ends in failure, because it doesn’t work, and has never worked for anyone unless they get a Crosby/McDavid type player. Even then rushing things along still creates more problems than it solves and requires patience while stacking up players.

Who did they rush exactly? Hayton/Runblad/Gormley/Bunting? What players were ruined. Most here complain about not having prospects up soon enough because the vets are not good. I like Gunts, think he is coming along, again he is a winger and what else is Bear going to say? The key to our team success is not wingers.

The "mental gymnastics" is bear/BAtalking about whatever during our 20 game slide/disaster, who is accountable for that? The players see through it all, mailing it in now.....