Post-Game Talk: TRADE DEADLINE 2024

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Vegas with the cap circumcision

The NHL league is a joke. Vegas is gonna make the Bolts trick again.
Rewarding cheating in the rules. They have to fix that, it's not serious.

 

[The Great Weal]

All of a sudden the players we're drafting (including the late Timmins picks) are suddenly panning out.

Why is that?

What late Timmins pick is panning out? Roy looks very good and I'm a massive fan so kudos to him. Romanov was developed under the old regime. RHP/Harris/Struble are good picks but ultimately 4th liner/bottom pairing dmen. You're not winning anything with a team full of 4th liners and bottom pairing dmen. Should we be celebrating that he managed to draft some NHLers in later rounds? He's done it with the Lekhonen/Evans players too despite the development killer MB who ruined Galchenyuk's chances of winning the Art Ross as the guaranteed 90 point player if he didn't play with Plekanec and Gallagher.

Yes the record looks better now because we haven't legitimately made the playoffs since 2017. That means we've drafted higher in every round and gotten more picks from selling assets.

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

The NHL league is a joke. Vegas is gonna make the Bolts trick again.
Rewarding cheating in the rules. They have to fix that, it's not serious.

They should at least say if you're over the cap by x amount for x number of NHL playoff games, you will forfeit your 1st Rd pick in the next draft. Won't really solve anything but at least put a penalty

 

[The Great Weal]

Oh, and when he left MTL his career fell apart. He left a 20/25 guy and became an AHL level talent. In his mid 20s.

I was one of the biggest Galchenyuk defenders and was pissed at MT/MB but when this happened I came to accept that I was dead wrong. Yes injuries and abusive coaching (where none of us are qualified to determine this, we weren't next to AG/MT through his tenure as a Hab) have had an impact. That being said, this didn't stop EVERYONE (myself included) at the time from saying that Galchenyuk would break out under a different team like the Yotes where he'd be scoring and playing a lot more. Now that it didn't work out whatsoever, the people who can't admit that Galchenyuk sucked are saying that they knew all along that Galchenyuk would flop elsewhere because of injuries and abusive coaching when they never took this into account when they said he'd break out with Arizona.

It's a common theme here. Beaulieu was guaranteed to break out in Buffalo since we ruined his development by prioritizing Benn, KK was going to break out with Carolina when we preferred Danault over him...etc. Anyways, I don't want to drift off topic but I'm glad the dog shit drafting and development under the old regime have been replaced.

 

[red devil]

Assuming Hertl's knees are ok, big missed opportunity on Hertl. Suzuki/Hertl/Dach all signed long term + our D + a true starting goalie in Monty is a baseline for a contending team. We could have easily matched that package with our picks and prospects.

Hope we find a similar opportunity to level up at the draft.

Hertl has a full NMC, Montreal and the other Canadian teams are on most of them. If Montreal starts being a more competitive team then a player maybe willing to waive it.

 

[SwiftyHab]

Anyone else getting logged out all the time?
Can any mods help. Can’t get off this thread without being logged off. Maybe I live here now?

 

[Egresch]

Assuming Hertl's knees are ok, big missed opportunity on Hertl. Suzuki/Hertl/Dach all signed long term + our D + a true starting goalie in Monty is a baseline for a contending team. We could have easily matched that package with our picks and prospects.

Hope we find a similar opportunity to level up at the draft.

Terrible idea, we already have two bad contracts with Gallagher and Anderson. Hertl is 30 with 6 more years. He would just be 2C or 3C.

 

[Mrb1p]

1.What excuse are we making and on what?

2. I don't think he is untouchable. But the core is in place and our two most prominent forward are signed through their prime for 6 and 7 years. (After this season.)

Matheson is here, he is a top 15 point producing defenseman, top 10 in TOI and plays PK.

You have every right to dislike him, and may i add, good reason.

But he is a player who, until he is surpassed, is our best D and its easy to envision him being a valuable player here for the next 5-6 years, so for Suzuki contract duration.

Why should we sell him for speculative assets such as late 1st? Especially since every young D outside Guhle (even then) still has question marks.

3) Those players have been traded for shitty assets. Regarding the market, we actually sold well and had great relative value for Monahan and Allen.

Tabarnak... Both Guhle and Savard are our best Ds. Its not close. Defender production is often a function of forwards, and since Matheson is stapled to Suzuki... Voila.

It doesn't matter that young Ds have question marks, we have the answers to the question marks on Mathesons case and they're all negative. He's a bad, bad player.

He should be traded because his value is as high as it ever will be.

 

[BargainBinSpecial]

The NHL league is a joke. Vegas is gonna make the Bolts trick again.
Rewarding cheating in the rules. They have to fix that, it's not serious.

Most teams will use it at some point or another. The Habs have Price on LTIR and Arizona is the dumping ground of past GM mistakes. They have Weber on the hook for 2 more years. The NHLPA will refuse because players are getting paid, even if they technically are retired or sitting at home, until their contracts run out. We see a lot of 3 way trades involving salary retention and picks, so the rule will stay.

 

[Mrb1p]

What late Timmins pick is panning out? Roy looks very good and I'm a massive fan so kudos to him. Romanov was developed under the old regime. RHP/Harris/Struble are good picks but ultimately 4th liner/bottom pairing dmen. You're not winning anything with a team full of 4th liners and bottom pairing dmen. Should we be celebrating that he managed to draft some NHLers in later rounds? He's done it with the Lekhonen/Evans players too despite the development killer MB who ruined Galchenyuk's chances of winning the Art Ross as the guaranteed 90 point player if he didn't play with Plekanec and Gallagher.

Yes the record looks better now because we haven't legitimately made the playoffs since 2017. That means we've drafted higher in every round and gotten more picks from selling assets.

Roy is a top 6er
Farrel looks to be another potential one
Dobes looks to be a future goaltender
Struble looks to be a #4
RHP is at the very least a 4th liner, if he ever beats the injury bug.
Ylonen could probbaly hack it as a journeyman 2nd liner on bad teams.
Romanov is a top four D.
Harris is a 6-7.
Primeau is at the very least a back-up.
Pezz is a 13th forward
Juulsen is a 6-7
Evans is a good 4C
McCarron is an excellent 4C
Lekhonen is a 2nd line W

Pretty good list since 2012. Add to that Serge and Guhle as a top pair Ds, Cole as a top line W, Poehling and KK as bottom 6 Cs, Caufield and maaaaybe Mailloux as a #4.

Timmins wasn't the problem, though I am fine with moving away from him because I think, as evidenced above, he focused too much on physicals rather than skills.

 

[The Great Weal]

Roy is a top 6er

Not yet but he likely ends up as one

Farrel looks to be another potential one

Lol come on Farrell is not going to be a top 6 player

Dobes looks to be a future goaltender

Can't say for sure. McNiven was supposed to be a future goaltender too.

Struble looks to be a #4

Likely a bottom pairing guy but a #4 dman isn't out of the question

RHP is at the very least a 4th liner, if he ever beats the injury bug.

Agreed

Ylonen could probbaly hack it as a journeyman 2nd liner on bad teams.

Bro what. Ylonen is off to Europe next year.

Romanov is a top four D.

Yes

Harris is a 6-7.

Who cares, there's a billion Harris in the league.

Primeau is at the very least a back-up.

Still remains to be seen, his time to show it is now

Pezz is a 13th forward

See Harris comment.

Juulsen is a 6-7

Disaster 1st rounder even if injuries hurt him

Evans is a good 4C

Yes good pick

McCarron is an excellent 4C

Nothing to be happy about drafting a 4C with a 1st rounder

Lekhonen is a 2nd line W

When playing with superstars

Pretty good list since 2012.

So a bunch of fringe NHLers/4th liners/bottom pairing dmen

Add to that Serge and Guhle as a top pair Ds, Cole as a top line W, Poehling and KK as bottom 6 Cs, Caufield and maaaaybe Mailloux as a #4.

His last 3 1sts rounders do look good. Poehling and KK were dog shit picks, you can't be happy about below average 3rd liners with a 1st rounder.

Caufield-KK-Roy
Lehkonen-Poehling-Ylonen
RHP-Evans-Farrell
Pezz-McCarron-X(Tuch?)

Guhle-Sergachev
Romanov-Struble
Harris-Juulsen
Mailloux

Primeau
Dobes

This team has 88 goals so far this season. What is there to celebrate? The Stars for instance have 90 goals just between Hintz/Robertson/Johnston/Heiskanen/Harley.

Timmins wasn't the problem

The guy hasn't drafted a star since 2007. The Habs are the only team in the league to not draft a player that scored at least 70 points a season since he was hired. That's horrible. It's ultimately on MB for keeping this clown but he was the Habs biggest problem.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Most teams will use it at some point or another. The Habs have Price on LTIR and Arizona is the dumping ground of past GM mistakes. They have Weber on the hook for 2 more years. The NHLPA will refuse because players are getting paid, even if they technically are retired or sitting at home, until their contracts run out. We see a lot of 3 way trades involving salary retention and picks, so the rule will stay.

What I do understand is this sport brings injuries more than other sports, often on important players in teams. So they developped a system to protect both the players injured and the teams who hired them. Maybe there will be a little adjustment some day but I think the system will stay the same. Teams will have to do with.

 

[Mrb1p]

Not yet but he likely ends up as one

Lol come on Farrell is not going to be a top 6 player

Can't say for sure. McNiven was supposed to be a future goaltender too.

Likely a bottom pairing guy but a #4 dman isn't out of the question

Agreed

Bro what. Ylonen is off to Europe next year.

Yes

Who cares, there's a billion Harris in the league.

Still remains to be seen, his time to show it is now

See Harris comment.

Disaster 1st rounder even if injuries hurt him

Yes good pick

Nothing to be happy about drafting a 4C with a 1st rounder

When playing with superstars

So a bunch of fringe NHLers/4th liners/bottom pairing dmen

His last 3 1sts rounders do look good. Poehling and KK were dog shit picks, you can't be happy about below average 3rd liners with a 1st rounder.

Caufield-KK-Roy
Lehkonen-Poehling-Ylonen
RHP-Evans-Farrell
Pezz-McCarron-X(Tuch?)

Guhle-Sergachev
Romanov-Struble
Harris-Juulsen
Mailloux

Primeau
Dobes

This team has 88 goals so far this season. What is there to celebrate? The Stars for instance have 90 goals just between Hintz/Robertson/Johnston/Heiskanen/Harley.

The guy hasn't drafted a star since 2007. The Habs are the only team in the league to not draft a player that scored at least 70 points a season since he was hired. That's horrible. It's ultimately on MB for keeping this clown but he was the Habs biggest problem.

I mean, he drafted a top 5 player of his era, hard to blame him there. A norris D, two 40g scorers, etc... again, im okay with him being gone, but he wasnt the problem.

 

[Twisted Sinister]

And Eiserman’s on some lists at 2 and others at 14.

Two other clubs wanted him at 5th. And even if you’re saying 8th that’s a few picks away, hardly a reach.

Again, Hutson just smashed the NCAA record for points. How in the world can we not see at least star potential there?

You’re talking about guys not even in the league yet or just starting their careers. Moreover, we have a pretty high volume of really good prospects, we have another high pick this year - we might wind up with multiple stars.

Do you think the Bruins knew they had a star in Pasternak? No they didn’t. He emerged over time. It’s the same with say… Slaf. We don’t really know what he’ll be yet.

The New Jersey Devils didn’t have a Mackinnon, neither did the Bruins… we don’t need a Mackinnon if we’ve got stars elsewhere.

There’s no way to know if the stars are here yet. But I reject your assertion that we don’t have star potential- we certainly do. But we have have to wait and see.

Then don’t bring up cheerleading accusations if you don’t know who you’re talking to.

I argued for years we should rebuild. The way to do that is to stockpile talent. And the team has ‘tanked’ exactly as they should. We have two top fives in two drafts plus another top ten (in a top heavy) draft this year. We’ve also traded away vets and stockpiled picks and prospects. We’re doing exactly what I’d hoped we’d do.

The only way to get the BEST is the lottery. You can’t count on that. What you can do is draft high for a few years and stockpile the best talent you can. That’s the way it’s always been done.

Btw, it’s entirely possible that we got the two best players in the 2022 draft. That draft might be one of the best we’ve ever had.

It’s been TWO years…

It’s not like we’re in the middle of a rebuild, we’re at the start. We won’t be in the playoffs next year either btw. We’ll have tons of young blueliners to use as currency… And we won’t see guys like RB and Hutson probably until 25-26.

-Eiserman's stock has fallen pretty much across the board. The lists that have him at 2 are probably older

-I see star potential with Lane, but also holes in his game that will prevent him from being a gamebreaker. He has a lot of work to do. But I am more bullish on him than a lot of people.

-I don't see anyone in our system that COULD turn into a Pastrnak. Our prospect pool at forward is very meh, in my view.

-The fact that you have to go back to the Devils in the dead puck era and the Bruins for one cup in 2011 kind of proves my point. Winning teams usually have gamebreakers. I'll even give you the Blues. Still proves my point. The occasional "by committee" team wins, but the vast majority have top end talent.

-I think we have some star potential, just not gamebreaker potential.

-If you sound like you're cheerleading, I'll say you sound like you're cheerleading. We're having a conversation now, not 5 years ago. That said, I think my initial comment was about Habs fans in general, not you specifically.

-I don't understand this lottery argument. The lottery is only for 2 spots. For the rest of the spots, it's based on where you finish. I'd rather draft 3rd than 8th, no? But I wasn't talking about that when I said "the best." I was talking about the best management. One that doesn't f*** up, that does everything to win. One that doesn't make unforced errors. One that tanks properly when it should tank. One that doesn't play injured players in dead seasons. One that doesn't sign Jake Allen to 4 million dollar contracts for no reason. One that doesn't use draft capital to tade for the type of player that we have 700 of in our system. One that doesn't screw the tank because of "muh culture," etc. Again, under our current structure, I'm reminded more of Detroit's failure to acquire top end talent during they're tank, and that's just not good enough.

-re: The tank, Yes, I agree we keep going with it, but I don't think Molson, the media, and antsy fans will allow it to be a full-blown multi-year endeavor. imo, we should be drafting high for at least 2 more years, but I think people are going to start getting really cranky next year.

 

[The Great Weal]

I mean, he drafted a top 5 player of his era, hard to blame him there. A norris D, two 40g scorers, etc... again, im okay with him being gone, but he wasnt the problem.

Being the only team to not draft a single player capable of producing at least 70 points a season is a massive problem. Again, look at that lineup I posted. There's no way you can be happy with that. Yippie, we drafted a #6-7 dman in Harris in the 3rd round, let's extend him for another 10 years even though a team like Dallas has 5 players that outscore our 18.

 

[Mrb1p]

Being the only team to not draft a single player capable of producing at least 70 points a season is a massive problem. Again, look at that lineup I posted. There's no way you can be happy with that. Yippie, we drafted a #6-7 dman in Harris in the 3rd round, let's extend him for another 10 years even though a team like Dallas has 5 players that outscore our 18.

Meh, youre too emotional about this. Theres a reason why all the picks busted so bad or ended up just as role players, its not Timmins, its development.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Meh, youre too emotional about this. Theres a reason why all the picks busted so bad or ended up just as role players, its not Timmins, its development.

Its both. Development was dog shite but Timmins draft are lacking top end players. Timmins also was responsible of player development for your info. So he has double the blame.

 

[The Great Weal]

Meh, youre too emotional about this. Theres a reason why all the picks busted so bad or ended up just as role players, its not Timmins, its development.

Emotional about what? Timmins sucked at drafting offense and that has killed the Habs for so long. Pointing at McCarron as a good pick doesn't change that fact.

 

[Rapala]

The NHL league is a joke. Vegas is gonna make the Bolts trick again.
Rewarding cheating in the rules. They have to fix that, it's not serious.

It's such an easy fix too.
All teams must remain under the cap for every game of the post season. Period.
It's f***ing ridiculous and there is a reason every team has a farm.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

-Eiserman's stock has fallen pretty much across the board. The lists that have him at 2 are probably older

List came out this week and he’s 4. It’s all over the map.

-I see star potential with Lane, but also holes in his game that will prevent him from being a gamebreaker. He has a lot of work to do. But I am more bullish on him than a lot of people

Every player has a weakness. You can’t possibly know if they will prevent him from being a star.

Subban had flaws and yet was every bit the superstar that any blueliner in the league was. You simply don’t know.

-I don't see anyone in our system that COULD turn into a Pastrnak. Our prospect pool at forward is very meh, in my view.

Again though, most of these guys aren’t in the league or are just starting out. None of Pasta, Chara or Kucherov were supposed to be superstars.

-The fact that you have to go back to the Devils in the dead puck era and the Bruins for one cup in 2011 kind of proves my point. Winning teams usually have gamebreakers. I'll even give you the Blues. Still proves my point. The occasional "by committee" team wins, but the vast majority have top end talent.

Who says we don’t have a gamebreaker? CC might be a 50 goal guy. Roy looks good. We have another high pick this year that could be Catton or Eiserman…

-I think we have some star potential, just not gamebreaker potential.

Too early to know.

-If you sound like you're cheerleading, I'll say you sound like you're cheerleading. We're having a conversation now, not 5 years ago. That said, I think my initial comment was about Habs fans in general, not you specifically.

Is it cheerleading to say that we’ve got a lot of top quality prospects or is it fact?

I already conceded that we don’t have the obvious blue chip star but that doesn’t mean we don’t have one at all.

-I don't understand this lottery argument. The lottery is only for 2 spots. For the rest of the spots, it's based on where you finish. I'd rather draft 3rd than 8th, no? But I wasn't talking about that when I said "the best." I was talking about the best management. One that doesn't f*** up, that does everything to win. One that doesn't make unforced errors. One that tanks properly when it should tank. One that doesn't play injured players in dead seasons. One that doesn't sign Jake Allen to 4 million dollar contracts for no reason. One that doesn't use draft capital to tade for the type of player that we have 700 of in our system. One that doesn't screw the tank because of "muh culture," etc. Again, under our current structure, I'm reminded more of Detroit's failure to acquire top end talent during they're tank, and that's just not good enough.

We’ve traded vets for picks and prospects. We have an overflow of guys in the back end and are now working on forwards. We had the number one overall in our first year, a top five in our second and will probably be 6-8 in our third. We have 24 picks in the next two drafts….

That is EXACTLY how you rebuild.

-re: The tank, Yes, I agree we keep going with it, but I don't think Molson, the media, and antsy fans will allow it to be a full-blown multi-year endeavor. imo, we should be drafting high for at least 2 more years, but I think people are going to start getting really cranky next year.

Let them be cranky. They were cranky when MB was doing a shit job and he lasted a decade.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

The funniest thing is people getting angry because we have not build the team like Vegas while in reality Vegas had WAY better assets to work to get where they are now.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

What late Timmins pick is panning out? .

Seriously?

Caufield, Guehle, Roy, Struble, Pinard, Harris are all good NHL prospects - some with really good upside. When in the entire run of MB did we have that? Never. It was players drafted from the previous regime. I will exclude Mailloux due to the circumstances. And yes Sergachev and Romanov are examples of picks being developed elsewhere.

We used to be able to find players late in the draft. MB shows up and we can’t draft out way out of a paper bag. Now he’s gone and those 2020 picks are suddenly panning out again.

Exactly as I told you they would btw.

It’s incredible to me that people continue to try to defend the previous regime when they were so clearly incompetent. Development matters. It always did. And it’s great to see that we recognize this now.

 

[The Great Weal]

Seriously?

Caufield, Guehle, Roy, Struble, Pinard, Harris are all good NHL prospects - some with really good upside. When in the entire run of MB did we have that? Never. It was players drafted from the previous regime. I will exclude Mailloux due to the circumstances. And yes Sergachev and Romanov are examples of picks being developed elsewhere.

We used to be able to find players late in the draft. MB shows up and we can’t draft out way out of a paper bag. Now he’s gone and those 2020 picks are suddenly panning out again.

Exactly as I told you they would btw.

How are Caufield and Guhle late picks? Are any picks outside the top 5 considered late to you? Yeah Harris is definitely someone with "really good upside" . When in the entire run of MB did Timmins ever draft someone as dominant as Caufield and Roy outside the NHL? Never. Romanov played with the Habs during the MB era before he got traded away mere months later. Excluding him is outrageously disingenuous but unsurprising that you'd say that. Not to mention if you think that 1.5 seasons with the NHL doesn't count as development, it highlights the fact that other players drafted by Timmins should have been able to be developed elsewhere too before arriving here which most of them didn't since they sucked.

We haven't done it since Gallagher who was far from a star. Drafting dime a dozen players like Harris, Evans, and RHP isn't going to turn us into contenders.

2020 picks? Guhle is a top 4 dman who was thrown to the wolves right away. MB and his team did the exact same thing with the likes of Mete. You can't provide any proof that MB and his team wouldn't have done this when history suggests they have. We can pretty much rule out the 2nd rounders as having any kind of legitimate impact on an NHL team. Unless something drastic happens, Farrell isn't going to be a regular on our team. Dobes has NHL potential, but Timmins never had a serious flaw drafting goaltenders (look at Primeau who was under MB). That's a bad example of "MB single handedly ruined all the superstars that Timmins gifted him".

As per usual, you have provided nothing worthwhile, and your post is filled with inaccuracies and contradictions. Let's also ignore the fact that the likes of Danault and Suzuki were developed by MB and his team.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

How are Caufield and Guhle late picks?

They are late Timmins picks. From 2019 onward.

Are any picks outside the top 5 considered late to you? Yeah Harris is definitely someone with "really good upside" .

You are really bad at this.

As was said, we have a whack of good NHL prospects some with really good updside. Harris is a solid prospect who will fit into a bottom pair, Caufield a top six.

Again, answer my question... when did we ever have anything like this under MB? We didn't. But the moment he's gone, those late picks suddenly start panning into NHLers. Just like they did before he got here.

When in the entire run of MB did Timmins ever draft someone as dominant as Caufield and Roy outside the NHL? Never. Romanov played with the Habs during the MB era before he got traded away mere months later. Excluding him is outrageously disingenuous but unsurprising that you'd say that. Not to mention if you think that 1.5 seasons with the NHL doesn't count as development, it highlights the fact that other players drafted by Timmins should have been able to be developed elsewhere too before arriving here which most of them didn't since they sucked.

How can we know? We'd draft guys and then bring them up at 18 and play them in the bottom six. Or they'd wash out altogether under SL. And btw, CC was well on his way to busting too before the new regime came in. The moment he fell under MSL he suddenly became a 50 goal guy.

I told you it would happen. It did. Not surprisingly, you're here again defending the old regime.

We haven't done it since Gallagher who was far from a star. Drafting dime a dozen players like Harris, Evans, and RHP isn't going to turn us into contenders.

No, but they will develop into NHLers. They can be used as currency for other picks and players. We're actually getting VALUE out of our picks now as opposed to before. We might as well have just ditched all the picks we had for a decade under MB because he was so bad at development.

2020 picks? Guhle is a top 4 dman who was thrown to the wolves right away. MB and his team did the exact same thing with the likes of Mete. You can't provide any proof that MB and his team wouldn't have done this when history suggests they have. We can pretty much rule out the 2nd rounders as having any kind of legitimate impact on an NHL team. Unless something drastic happens, Farrell isn't going to be a regular on our team. Dobes has NHL potential, but Timmins never had a serious flaw drafting goaltenders (look at Primeau who was under MB). That's a bad example of "MB single handedly ruined all the superstars that Timmins gifted him".

I have all the proof I need. Ten years of failure vs what we see now, picks turning into productive NHL players and tradeable assets.

Exactly as I told you would happen.

As per usual, you have provided nothing worthwhile, and your post is filled with inaccuracies and contradictions. Let's also ignore the fact that the likes of Danault and Suzuki were developed by MB and his team.

As usual you aren't capable of admitting you were wrong. It's okay, I don't expect you to.

But I'm here all day for this. I will bury you on this because it's really easy to do.

 

[Twisted Sinister]

List came out this week and he’s 4. It’s all over the map.

If I were to wager a guess, I don't think Mr. Glasses on Forehead will be high on him. But fair enough. I haven't been able to follow lists too much lately.

Every player has a weakness. You can’t possibly know if they will prevent him from being a star.

Subban had flaws and yet was every bit the superstar that any blueliner in the league was. You simply don’t know.

Again though, most of these guys aren’t in the league or are just starting out. None of Pasta, Chara or Kucherov were supposed to be superstars.

Who says we don’t have a gamebreaker? CC might be a 50 goal guy. Roy looks good. We have another high pick this year that could be Catton or Eiserman…

Too early to know.

I'm kind of tired of the "Oh well, let's be positive and it MIGHT happen" approach. That's been our approach for 30 years. People were touting everyone from KK to Scherbak to Louis Louis Louis. Competent organizations circumvent the maybes and ensure success.

Is it cheerleading to say that we’ve got a lot of top quality prospects or is it fact?

I already conceded that we don’t have the obvious blue chip star but that doesn’t mean we don’t have one at all.

I don't think it's a fact at all. I think it's a big question mark. Again, people thought we had excellent talent pools forever and nothing panned out.

We’ve traded vets for picks and prospects. We have an overflow of guys in the back end and are now working on forwards. We had the number one overall in our first year, a top five in our second and will probably be 6-8 in our third. We have 24 picks in the next two drafts….

That is EXACTLY how you rebuild.

They could be doing better. As I said, they look like they're headed for Detroit, not Pittsburgh, Colorado, Tampa, etc.

Let them be cranky. They were cranky when MB was doing a shit job and he lasted a decade.

Just based on ownership's general behavior and their refusal to actually use the word rebuild, I'm not as optimistic as you on this. I'm not sure how much they're willing to sacrifice in the short term for long term gain.

During the Bergevin years, I think casual fans got their dopamine hits enough that the uproar was never too loud, even though the hardcores hated him. He only got canned when things went to absolute Hell. Look at this board now. Even here you have super impatient people that want this to be the last year of the tank or didn't want to tank at all.