GDT: Trade and Free Agency Thread -- To trade or not to trade...

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Nurse
Jones
Werenski
Makar
Hamilton

switch Makar and Hamilton and you would have the worst possible ranking of these players. Your way is very close though

 

[Dreakmur]

switch Makar and Hamilton and you would have the worst possible ranking of these players. Your way is very close though

Of the 5, Nurse is the best defensively. He's easily the most physical.

Considering last year's PP ice time, Nurse probably had the best offensive season of the 5. He's not the best of the bunch, but he produced really well.

 

[Morgs]

Makar will be better, but his defensive game is bad right now. He needs some more experience to lean on.



It’s part of the package. Offense, defense, skating, puck moving, physical, etc.

And Nurse is by far, the worst defensively. The only one that comes close in that regard is Jones, and that's just recent. Nurse has never even pretended to be good defensively.

Edit:

Of the 5, Nurse is the best defensively.

Oh

 

[LeafChief]

Makar will be better, but his defensive game is bad right now. He needs some more experience to lean on.



It’s part of the package. Offense, defense, skating, puck moving, physical, etc.

I respect that that is your opinion.

 

[Morgs]

Okay, I couldn't help myself lol. Of the 168 defeseman that played more than 500 minutes at 5v5 this past season here is where the five rank in rel.xGA/60:

62nd - Hamilton
75th - Werenski
110th - Makar
150th - Jones
162nd - Nurse

Their defensive impact percentiles for the previous three seasons combined are as follows:

Hamilton - 72nd percentile
Makar - 60th
Werenski - 49th
Jones - 10th
Nurse - 5th

It's overtly clear that Edmonton (and CBJ) were significantly better defensively when their "#1" defenseman were sitting on the bench. And for good measure, here is their QOC% the past 3 seasons:

Nurse - 100th percentile
Makar - 85th
Jones - 84th
Werenski - 75th
Hamilton 72nd

Essentially this is saying that Nurse (and Jones) play very tough minutes and they get absolutely slaughtered in them. Makar plays very hard minutes too and manages to actually succeed defensively in them. That's not to say Hamilton & Weresnki don't play hard minutes either because they play tough comp and top-pair minutes as well.

As for offense (just to finish this conversation off and delete this if I've gone too far):

Hamilton - 99th percentile
Nurse - 96th
Makar - 95th
Weresnki - 86th
Jones - 10th

Nurse is an all out offensive, physical (horrible penalty differential), "#1" defenseman that plays way too many minutes that are way too hard, and benefits from playing with two of the best point scorers in the NHL. Jones has been awful too for years, but that's been talked to death and I do think there is a legitimate chance he bounces back on Chicago.

 

[Dreakmur]

Okay, I couldn't help myself lol. Of the 168 defeseman that played more than 500 minutes at 5v5 this past season here is where the five rank in rel.xGA/60:

62nd - Hamilton
75th - Werenski
110th - Makar
150th - Jones
162nd - Nurse

Their defensive impact percentiles for the previous three seasons combined are as follows:

Hamilton - 72nd percentile
Makar - 60th
Werenski - 49th
Jones - 10th
Nurse - 5th

It's overtly clear that Edmonton (and CBJ) were significantly better defensively when their "#1" defenseman were sitting on the bench. And for good measure, here is their QOC% the past 3 seasons:

Nurse - 100th percentile
Makar - 85th
Jones - 84th
Werenski - 75th
Hamilton 72nd

Essentially this is saying that Nurse (and Jones) play very tough minutes and they get absolutely slaughtered in them. That's not to say Hamilton & Weresnki don't either because they play tough comp and top-pair minutes as well.

As for offense (just to finish this conversation off and delete this if I've gone too far):

Hamilton - 99th percentile
Nurse - 96th
Makar - 95th
Weresnki - 86th
Jones - 10th

Nurse is an all out offensive, physical (horrible penalty differential), "#1" defenseman that plays way too many minutes that are way too hard, and benefits from playing with two of the best point scorers in the NHL. Jones has been awful too for years, but that's been talked to death and I do think there is a legitimate chance he bounces back on Chicago.

You keep looking at your charts. I’ll keep watching the games.

 

[Morgs]

You keep looking at your charts. I’ll keep watching the games.

Are you insinuating I don't watch games? There's empirical evidence that suggests that Makar & Hamilton are head and shoulders above the other three (while Werenski still being really, really good) and you just blindly ignore it to focus on your eyes? There is literally information out there at our fingertips that show things our eyes miss and you simply choose to ignore it?

That's fine. You do you boo boo.

 

[LeafChief]

You keep looking at your charts. I’ll keep watching the games.

This is an incredibly lazy response.

 

[Morgs]

All this comes back to us needing to trade Morgan Rielly if he even begins to sniff the money these guys are being paid. His profile is incredibly similar to Nurse's (weirdly) in that he's an all-out offensive defenseman that couldn't show you where the defensive zone is and benefits greatly from playing with four of the best producers in the NHL and (unlike Nurse) has been handed top-PP minutes in 2 of the last 3 seasons. Although I'd consider him a much more useful defenseman, the type of money I assume he's going to get is bad. Especially when he's arguably the 3rd best overall defenseman on the team.

Have a good night everyone.

 

[Dreakmur]

Are you insinuating I don't watch games?

Your post insinuated that you don't watch games. My post implied it.

There's empirical evidence that suggests that Makar & Hamilton are head and shoulders above the other three (while Werenski still being really, really good) and you just blindly ignore it to focus on your eyes? There is literally information out there at our fingertips that show things our eyes miss and you simply choose to ignore it?

There's empirical evidence that suggests tanned skin reduces your risk of gingivitis. How valuable do you think that is?

Statistics are only valuable if they accurately measure what you want to evaluate.

 

[LeafChief]

I'll never understand the "I watch the games" crowd.

First of all, no you don't. Second of all, why is there an assumption that people that refer back to statistics don't watch games? How brainless is that as a concept?

Imagine ignoring statistics because they don't agree with your outdated train of thought. We live in a world where both statistics and eye test are equally as important. "I watch the games" is lazy.

 

[Dreakmur]

This is an incredibly lazy response.

Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick.

 

[kb]

Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick.

Yup, it perfectly undermines credibility 100%

 

[Dreakmur]

I'll never understand the "I watch the games" crowd.

First of all, no you don't.

Yeah, I definitely do. I look for game footage to use as teaching tools for the teams I coach. I probably used 20 clips of Makar alone last year - mostly on how he creates space and moves up ice, but some poor defensive coverage as well.

Second of all, why is there an assumption that people that refer back to statistics don't watch games? How brainless is that as a concept?

Fair enough.

Imagine ignoring statistics because they don't agree with your outdated train of thought. We live in a world where both statistics and eye test are equally as important. "I watch the games" is lazy.

I just don't think stats that try to measure defensive impact are at all accurate. There are far too many variables.

 

[LeafChief]

Yeah, I definitely do. I look for game footage to use as teaching tools for the teams I coach. I probably used 20 clips of Makar alone last year - mostly on how he creates space and moves up ice, but some poor defensive coverage as well.



Fair enough.



I just don't think stats that try to measure defensive impact are at all accurate. There are far too many variables.

So did you watch the games or did you take a peak at 20 clips of a player that plays close to 20 shifts in a single game?

 

[Dreakmur]

Yup, it perfectly undermines credibility 100%

 

[Dreakmur]

So did you watch the games or did you take a peak at 20 clips?

I watch PVR'd games, and copy the clips I notice.

 

[LeafChief]

I watch PVR'd games, and copy the clips I notice.

You PVR the games and you managed to pull 20 clips of Makar over a season. And this lead you to believe that Toews is a better defenceman than Cale Makar.

Please join me in saying a prayer for these poor children that this man 'coaches'.

 

[Dreakmur]

You PVR the games and you managed to pull 20 clips of Makar over a season. And this lead you to believe that Toews is a better defenceman than Cale Makar.

Please join me in saying a prayer for these poor children that this man 'coaches'.

I didn't say Toews was better than Makar. I don't even like Toews... but he's Colorado's #1 defenseman according to the coach.

 

[zeke]

Of the 5, Nurse is the best defensively.
.

But he's terrible defensively

 

[Leaf Rocket]

Devon Toews is better than Makar?

Everyones brains are officially broken.

you know in the pirates of the carribean the saying was sea turtles...for absurd things...?

In the same breath....offseason mate.

 

[Nooodles]

Nurse
Jones
Werenski
Makar
Hamilton

After seeing this ranking my eyes hurt so much I gotta ask for a Nurse!

 

[TheKrebsCycle]

What about acquiring Tierny as the 3 c ? Has more experience as a centre than Kerfoot and plays a pretty decent 2 way game . Ideally flip Kerfoot for a wing or d with some jam ( maybe Crouse?).

 

[stickty111]

I'll never understand the "I watch the games" crowd.

First of all, no you don't. Second of all, why is there an assumption that people that refer back to statistics don't watch games? How brainless is that as a concept?

Imagine ignoring statistics because they don't agree with your outdated train of thought. We live in a world where both statistics and eye test are equally as important. "I watch the games" is lazy.

The funny thing is the teams that win are the best statistically as well. Saying I watch the games is equal to no argument.

 

[leafsfan5]

The funny thing is the teams that win are the best statistically as well. Saying I watch the games is equal to no argument.

unfortunately we're the exception to this