Torts Reform: Coaching Discussion Thread III

[EDM]

Boy one victory over a really bad team and the lynch party seems to have temporarily disbanded.

 

[GoJackets1]

Boy one victory over a really bad team and the lynch party seems to have temporarily disbanded.

I mean, I'm not going to actively complain after a win, but it doesn't mean my mind has been changed. Lol

 

[DarkandStormy]

You made the claim that we are now under an internal salary cap.

The "internal cap" is a proven falsehood.

Again, happy to re-assess, but nothing shared has proven anything.

I stated the team is on an internal cap, citing coaching pay reductions, as a reason why Jarmo is probably not gung ho about hiring a new coach midseason. The team is already trimming expenses - as you noted - so it seems that if a coaching change is going to be made, it will be done so in the offseason.

 

[puckie]

Teams are less likely to get rid of coaches this year because they are losing money. Montreal made a change because the roster was suppose to be performing better and it looks like Julien had lost the team. Even last year there were really bad stretches. His younger players actually performed worse after being around him vs. better. Also expectations there of winning the cup with the current roster.

They made a change because they could promote an internal guy instead of having to pay 2 head coaching salaries. Actually a great way to test out an internal person with potential before signing to a long-term contract.

They went from an old school coach to a new more player friendly coach.

I keep thinking that to attract fee agent talent to Columbus you need a coach players want to play for. It is not like You can sell lifestyle like FL, NYC, LA, etc.

 

[Jive Pawnbroker]

Teams are less likely to get rid of coaches this year because they are losing money. Montreal made a change because the roster was suppose to be performing better and it looks like Julien had lost the team. Even last year there were really bad stretches. His younger players actually performed worse after being around him vs. better. Also expectations there of winning the cup with the current roster.

They made a change because they could promote an internal guy instead of having to pay 2 head coaching salaries. Actually a great way to test out an internal person with potential before signing to a long-term contract.

They went from an old school coach to a new more player friendly coach.

I keep thinking that to attract fee agent talent to Columbus you need a coach players want to play for. It is not like You can sell lifestyle like FL, NYC, LA, etc.

Big ticket UFAs will not come here because of a coach because that coach will likely be gone before their contract is up. To date, the Jackets have never signed a UFA of any significance and likely won't any time soon because as you say, to the rest of the world we live in Boringville USA. The only thing that will attract a difference-making UFA here is a chance at the Cup, which they've only had one decent run at. The team will likely have to win a Cup through drafting and trades and still have a window to repeat before any big name UFAs would even give us the time of day.

 

[majormajor]

Big ticket UFAs will not come here because of a coach because that coach will likely be gone before their contract is up. To date, the Jackets have never signed a UFA of any significance and likely won't any time soon because as you say, to the rest of the world we live in Boringville USA. The only thing that will attract a difference-making UFA here is a chance at the Cup, which they've only had one decent run at. The team will likely have to win a Cup through drafting and trades and still have a window to repeat before any big name UFAs would even give us the time of day.

Not true, unless you're arguing that some years don't even have free agents of any significance. Guess who was considered the top free agent of 2013? I don't care for the generalization of Boringville either. Some people like Columbus, some don't.

 

[Jive Pawnbroker]

Not true, unless you're arguing that some years don't even have free agents of any significance. Guess who was considered the top free agent of 2013? I don't care for the generalization of Boringville either. Some people like Columbus, some don't.

I didn't say that we live in Boringville; I said that to the rest of the world we live in Boringville.

If Nathan Horton is the big free agent signing over the past 20 years that refutes my argument, then the bar that you set for impact free agent signings is pretty low. As it turned out, he was a booby prize as he was damaged goods who was never healthy enough to have any, let alone a significant, impact here.

 

[majormajor]

I didn't say that we live in Boringville; I said that to the rest of the world we live in Boringville.

If Nathan Horton is the big free agent signing over the past 20 years that refutes my argument, then the bar that you set for impact free agent signings is pretty low. As it turned out, he was a booby prize as he was damaged goods who was never healthy enough to have a significant impact here.

I'll give you the news. The big free agent signing is very often a booby prize.

My point about "some folks like Columbus, some don't" wasn't just about residents vs outsiders. Some outsiders like Columbus, some don't.

 

[The Jones Zone]

After the zoom call and Jarmo giving Torts his support, I don't see anything happening until the off season.

I think Torts has been amazing, but I also think it's time for a new voice next year.

Today's Professional athletes will tune out a coach after so long.


Anyone remember what Larry Bird said when he accepted the Pacers head coaching job?

(yes I understand NBA players are 100X more divas than NHL players)

 

[NotWendell]

Big ticket UFAs will not come here because of a coach because that coach will likely be gone before their contract is up. To date, the Jackets have never signed a UFA of any significance and likely won't any time soon because as you say, to the rest of the world we live in Boringville USA. The only thing that will attract a difference-making UFA here is a chance at the Cup, which they've only had one decent run at. The team will likely have to win a Cup through drafting and trades and still have a window to repeat before any big name UFAs would even give us the time of day.

Nyquist is not big ticket enough? What is your definition of big ticket?

 

[Jive Pawnbroker]

I'll give you the news. The big free agent signing is very often a booby prize.

No shit, Sherlock. Handing out big bucks over a long term to a guy who may be heading into the downside of his career is a big risk. You're preaching to the choir here. That said, 2013 must have been a good year to not be in the UFA market if a 50ish point player like Horton was the big prize.

The warning signs were there with Horton, who barely got in a half season in the two years prior to his signing here. The team was trying to establish an identity back then and Horton was viewed as the prototype Jacket. It was a nice try on Jarmo's part but it bit him in the ass, especially when he didn't insure the contract.

[/QUOTE]My point about "some folks like Columbus, some don't" wasn't just about residents vs outsiders. Some outsiders like Columbus, some don't.[/QUOTE]

Again, no shit. Some people like to live in the big city and some people don't. Athletes who make the biggest bucks tend to want to live in the biggest cities and be in the limelight vs. living a very nice, relatively low profile life in a town like Columbus. The UFAs that we have signed have liked it here and often stick around after their careers are over which is a compliment to our town but frankly they haven't been the caliber of player that would put our team over the top.

UFAs sign where they sign for one or more of these reasons: 1) $$$$$, 2) Location (warm and/or glamorous, or 3) a chance at winning a Cup. While Jarmo has shown with Panarin that he's willing to spend big for the right player, Columbus doesn't have enough bright lights, warm weather, or success on the ice to lure a truly difference-making UFA here. It doesn't make Columbus a bad place to live, but it's not the type of place that the best UFAs seek out. Maybe that's a good thing as I'd rather the team be built through the draft and trades vs. UFAs anyways.

 

[Jive Pawnbroker]

Nyquist is not big ticket enough? What is your definition of big ticket?

Panarin?

 

[majormajor]

No shit, Sherlock. Handing out big bucks over a long term to a guy who may be heading into the downside of his career is a big risk. You're preaching to the choir here. That said, 2013 must have been a good year to not be in the UFA market if a 50ish point player like Horton was the big prize.

The warning signs were there with Horton, who barely got in a half season in the two years prior to his signing here. The team was trying to establish an identity back then and Horton was viewed as the prototype Jacket. It was a nice try on Jarmo's part but it bit him in the ass, especially when he didn't insure the contract.

Okay, so you mean "big ticket" but only in the better years of the UFA market, and none of the regrettable UFA signings included? Isn't this what Viqsi calls "No True Scotsman"?

Again, no shit. Some people like to live in the big city and some people don't. Athletes who make the biggest bucks tend to want to live in the biggest cities and be in the limelight vs. living a very nice, relatively low profile town like Columbus. The UFAs that we have signed have liked it here and often stick around after their careers are over which is a compliment to our town but frankly they haven't been the caliber of player that would put our team over the top.

UFAs sign where they sign for one or more of these reasons: 1) $$$$$, 2) Location (warm and/or glamorous, or 3) a chance at winning a Cup. While Jarmo has shown with Panarin that he's willing to spend big for the right player, Columbus doesn't have enough bright lights, warm weather, or success on the ice to lure a truly difference-making UFA here. It doesn't make Columbus a bad place to live, but it's not the type of place that the best UFAs seek out. Maybe that's a good thing as I'd rather the team be built through the draft and trades vs. UFAs anyways.

Rick Nash, Gus Nyquist, Nathan Horton, etc... etc... evidently aren't going to count as counterexamples here, are they? I think you've terribly exaggerated the issues Columbus has.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

No shit, Sherlock. Handing out big bucks over a long term to a guy who may be heading into the downside of his career is a big risk. You're preaching to the choir here. That said, 2013 must have been a good year to not be in the UFA market if a 50ish point player like Horton was the big prize.

The warning signs were there with Horton, who barely got in a half season in the two years prior to his signing here. The team was trying to establish an identity back then and Horton was viewed as the prototype Jacket. It was a nice try on Jarmo's part but it bit him in the ass, especially when he didn't insure the contract.

My point about "some folks like Columbus, some don't" wasn't just about residents vs outsiders. Some outsiders like Columbus, some don't.

Again, no shit. Some people like to live in the big city and some people don't. Athletes who make the biggest bucks tend to want to live in the biggest cities and be in the limelight vs. living a very nice, relatively low profile life in a town like Columbus. The UFAs that we have signed have liked it here and often stick around after their careers are over which is a compliment to our town but frankly they haven't been the caliber of player that would put our team over the top.

UFAs sign where they sign for one or more of these reasons: 1) $$$$$, 2) Location (warm and/or glamorous, or 3) a chance at winning a Cup. While Jarmo has shown with Panarin that he's willing to spend big for the right player, Columbus doesn't have enough bright lights, warm weather, or success on the ice to lure a truly difference-making UFA here. It doesn't make Columbus a bad place to live, but it's not the type of place that the best UFAs seek out. Maybe that's a good thing as I'd rather the team be built through the draft and trades vs. UFAs anyways.

I think this team would kill for a 50 point players this year. let's be honest.

 

[Jive Pawnbroker]

Okay, so you mean "big ticket" but only in the better years of the UFA market, and none of the regrettable UFA signings included? Isn't this what Viqsi calls "No True Scotsman"?



Rick Nash, Gus Nyquist, Nathan Horton, etc... etc... evidently aren't going to count as counterexamples here, are they? I think you've terribly exaggerated the issues Columbus has.

Nash was our franchise player when he signed his big deal with us but then again he had been drafted here and liked living here. If he had been drafted elsewhere, do you think he would have signed as a UFA here given all of the other offers he would have received? Frankly, I don't. I think you are burying your head in the sand if you don't think that the location of a city or its status plays at least a role in where a player decides to sign. I don't think it's always the biggest factor since I like to believe that wanting to be somewhere where you have a realistic chance to win a Cup or get consistent playing time are bigger factors but location / status / living closer to family plays a role without a doubt and that's no exaggeration. Over time Columbus may be a place where the elite players want to sign but IMO it will only change once a Cup gets raised.

I'm kind of wondering why I'm even arguing with you since I'm not even a fan of signing expensive UFAs since their contracts almost always become albatrosses towards the end of them. They should be signed to fill a specific need that cannot be addressed through the farm system or a trade.

Finally, I have no f***ing idea you are talking about re: "No True Scotsman". I don't live on this message board like you seem to do so you'll have to clue me in as to WTF you are talking about.

 

[Jive Pawnbroker]

I think this team would kill for a 50 point players this year. let's be honest.

50 point players are wonderful if they are capable of playing team defense in the tradition of the Jackets in recent years. Sadly though, for whatever reason the defensive structure that has allowed this team to be a pain in the ass for the rest of the league for the past few seasons has gone straight to hell this year. The guys need to figure out the team defense concept which in turn might create more offensive chances vs. spending 60 minutes each game chasing the puck in our own zone.

 

[Viqsi]

Finally, I have no f***ing idea you are talking about re: "No True Scotsman". I don't live on this message board like you seem to do so you'll have to clue me in as to WTF you are talking about.

This: Your logical fallacy is no true scotsman

 

[Jive Pawnbroker]

This: Your logical fallacy is no true scotsman

Thanks. After reading this, it just confirms to me that the point that mm was trying to make by bringing up your comment is truly bullshit. Whether Nathan Horton was a big ticket UFA signing or not is a subjective argument while putting sugar on porridge is an objective one. One is an undeniable fact while the other is subject to debate. Tavares, Pavelski, and Panarin IMO are UFAs that I would consider significant ones that would have had a difference-making impact here vs. Horton who was a good player when he was healthy but not in the same echelon as the previously mentioned guys. I guess you could say that Horton was a relatively big UFA signing for us along with Adam Foote but if that's the best we can do in the span of 20 years then it can be argued that the Jackets are not an attractive place for impact UFAs. If they win more, maybe that will change but for the time being it's our reality, like it or not.

 

[Viqsi]

Thanks. After reading this, it just confirms to me that the point that mm was trying to make by bringing up your comment is truly bullshit. Whether Nathan Horton was a big ticket UFA signing or not is a subjective argument while putting sugar on porridge is an objective one. One is an undeniable fact while the other is subject to debate. Tavares, Pavelski, and Panarin IMO are UFAs that I would consider significant ones that would have had a difference-making impact here vs. Horton who was a good player when he was healthy but not in the same echelon as the previously mentioned guys. I guess you could say that Horton was a relatively big UFA signing for us along with Adam Foote but if that's the best we can do in the span of 20 years then it can be argued that the Jackets are not an attractive place for impact UFAs. If they win more, maybe that will change but for the time being it's our reality, like it or not.

One has to then wonder just how many "big ticket UFAs" have actually come on the market, like, at all in the last 10 years. (Not many.)

Also, the Pavelski signing was originally not so great for Dallas; he was below half a point per game in the first year. He's having a ludicrously productive career year right now; he literally hasn't scored like this since his NCAA and AHL days. I would therefore question describing him as a "significant" one in the same breath as Tavares and Panarin.

 

[majormajor]

One has to then wonder just how many "big ticket UFAs" have actually come on the market, like, at all in the last 10 years. (Not many.)

Also, the Pavelski signing was originally not so great for Dallas; he was below half a point per game in the first year. He's having a ludicrously productive career year right now; he literally hasn't scored like this since his NCAA and AHL days. I would therefore question describing him as a "significant" one in the same breath as Tavares and Panarin.

Right, only two teams have signed a Tavares/Panarin caliber player in UFA in the last decade! You can broaden it a bit to include Pietrangelo, Suter, and Parise. Lower than that and you're getting into players that weren't much more esteemed than Nathan Horton was, and he I'm told doesn't count. There might be a couple I can't remember but either way that leaves us with a situation where about 25-27 teams haven't signed a "big ticket free agent" in the last decade. That doesn't prove anything about the Jackets pull or lack thereof.

I should clarify - I'm not arguing that Columbus is an especially desirable place to play, I think it really varies from player to player. We obviously could say much more about it, I just don't think you can infer much from the signings record.

 

[ThisIsMyAlibi]

I love Torts. He’s done incredible things for this franchise. I think he’s a good man, albeit flawed like all of us. I have no doubt he loves his players and loves the game more than anyone.

I still think it’s time. the roster isn’t great. True. But we need a new idea, a new message for the fellas. Time to reset the energy in the building.

 

[VT]

Torts situation - we have problems with centers and....a team is too unexperienced

Goalkeepers:
26-30: Merzlikins /27/, Korpisalo /27/

Defensmen:
31- more: Del Zotto /31/, Savard /31/
26-30: Kukan /28/, Jones /27/, Gavrikov /26/
18-25: Werenski /24/, Carlsson /24/

Forwards:
31-more: Foligno /34/, Nash /32/, Atkinson /32/
26-30: Jenner /28/, Grigorenko /27/, Bjorkstrand /26/, Domi /26/, Robinson /26/
18-25: Stenlund /25/, Roslovic /24/, Laine /23/, Texier /22/, Bemstrom /22/

Nyquist doesn't play yet.

And now how many matches played players? And compare with opponents.

It's very serious. Unexperienced players make more mistake.

 

[Finner]

Just end the misery. Torts out and let the guys play and enjoy hockey. There will be next season

 

[I3LI3]

 

[HabsAddict]

I'm taking bets.....

Julien will be your new coach. He's Torts without the sandpaper, temper and big mouth.