Confirmed with Link: Tortorella Fired Pt II: "The Search"

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The Pierre hate is so ridiculous. Creepiness =/= Lack of hockey knowledge. He is very knowledgeable, unfortunately the internet seems to think creep factor directly correlates with how well you know hockey.

That being said let's not get crazy and start penciling him in as head coach or GM. I would not object to him in a lesser role.

But it is "curiosities" McQuries talks about on the air, that is why so many posters object against the fact that he could coach in this league.

I've never heard Pierre McQuire say one "knowledgeble" thing about how the game of hockey should be played from a state of the art coach perspective.

He may be knowledgeble of the game of hockey, he has lived his life in the game. But the NHL is a multi-billion industry and its coaches spends day and night analysing and practising the Xs and Os of the game, the ever changing game.
 
But I can add a few facts to this equation.

-Nobody knows when and why Slats made up his mind. Some of the same reporters states to know that.

-The same reporters states that Hank "did not openly endorse Torts".

That is not correct, and has taken a life of it own. On break-up day Hank is all of a sudden asked if he would resign a year in advance of his contract being up, and he is -- obviously -- not prepared, not for the question, but the issue completely. Its 13 month's till he is a UFA. To interpret his answer on that question as a lack of "open endrosement of Torts", if just not in touch with reality.

-The entire hockey world -- save for NY media -- where completely tearing Torts apart. I wonder if a coach ever has been torn apart in the Hockey News like Torts was.

NY media knows nothing about the X and Os of the game, and while the hockey world had seen that Torts was caught with his pants down, they where 100% suprised and where looking for answers late night.

Bottom line: Slats has undoubtedly talked with especially Callahan about this, and I doubt any player would be labelling our latest progress, or lack there of, as a step in the right direction.

But I don't quite buy the mutiny talk. First and foremost, because this is Slats we are talking about. We know that he isn't chit-chatting about his reasons with Brooks late last night. Hence, it is all speculation using tibits here and there.


This is Slats so maybe this is his decision, but the one thing I don't get if there wasn't a player mutiny and Slats came to this decision on his own why wait until Wednesday to announce he was fired? Why would you even let Torts speak at break up day, and talk about June meetings and how we have to be ready for next season.

Why would you let Torts have one on one end of season meetings with each player on Monday? Unless he didn't want the players to have to deal with a bunch of why do you think Torts was fired questions on break up day?

We can all think whatever we want of Brooks, but he is by far the most connected of the Rangers beat writers, that's not saying much considering Zipay and Gross don't seem to have any sources, but Brooks is usually the person that actually talks to Sather on occasion.

I just don't think Larry Brooks and Pat Leonard would write the same exact story saying players wanted him gone, unless they had sources.
 
If I was Sather ( a complete moron living off the Oiler's dynasty) My choice for the next coach would be Doug Houda because of his anonymity and his true skills of dissecting the game.
 
It's hilarious when people tout their choice as "knowledgeable". They're all knowledgeable. Tortorella's knowledgeable. Renny's knowledgeable. Who isn't impressed by Tortorella when he talks nuts and bolts hockey - post game circuses not included?

I agree 100%. This is where some end up wrong.

Its like many believe that there are huge marginals here. Its like we were discussing Brian Boyle vs Evg Malkin, and some would be going:
"Boyle can skate. People think that he can't skate just because he is a bit immobile. Boyle can also shoot the puck. Boyle can stickhandle."

But we all know that Boyle isn't Malkin just because of the above. We of course want a "Malkin" or "Sid" or "Toews" to coach this team using the same analogy, not Brian Boyle...

I doubt many wanted Torts gone more than me, but I am 100% sure that Torts and Sullivan have done a really thourogh and state of the art job with this team in many many many areas. But when they come to the crossroads choosing between (a) opting to go with a approch of trying to minimize giveaways in the neutralzone by keeping the transition game as simple as possible, that worked perfectly for Torts in Tampa before the lockout, or (b) heading into unfamilier water to fully exploit the new possibilities in the game post the lockout, without the redline offside and clutching and grabbing, -- they just went in the wrong direction. And this is a fundamental issue, and there are not that kind of room for error. There aren't bigger marginals when coaching a team in the NHL than it is for the players playing it (ie we can't expect Boyle to be Malkin II just because he can skate, shoot and handle the puck).

An expert for TSN, or even a fan at this place, can make that one decision better than Torts. But Torts and Sullivan are putting in like 5,200 hrs each, 10,400 hrs combined, in coaching this team. You more or less gotta match them during those hrs too...
 
Hey this question is for Ola, BBKers or any of you Euro hockey fans. Is there any coach in the SEL or any Euro league who would make a good NHL coach. I wouldn't mind a totally fresh approach and a new face. Not the same old coaching carousel. Maybe a top minor league coach.

Ah, I was just about to get back to work... ;)

Great question! Of course there are. Just like, de facto, some of the best players, player developeers and scouts come from Europe, some of the best coaches come from Europe. But they are not options, because there are zero methods that enables them to adjust to the NHL.

It will change eventually, but it could take a good 10-20 years.

I am not sold on the fundamental coaching structure in the NHL to start with, and I think that gotta change first. Over the last 75 years we have gone from like having (i) one a head coach with one assistent, to (ii) having one head coach with two assistants, to maybe (iii) having one head coach with two assistants and a goalie coach and maybe a guy that helps out with the "VCR".

The head coach always have an extremely strong role on the coaching staff. The assistens, on scale of course, are very low key. Often more or less buddies with the head coach. You will just struggle to find (i) a European coach that is, in all areas, able to do a good job as a head coach in the NHL, and (ii) there are very few assistent that has an enough prominent position to have a big impact in the NHL.

There are alternatives to these structures. In Sweden we have more and more lately started to see teams with two outspoken head coaches. Skellefteå that won the SEL had three head coaches. I mean, if Slats tomorrow had a pc and announced that we where having 3 new headcoaches, being say Mark Messier, Dave Tippet and Ken Hitchcook (or any suitable combination), with to a certain extent diffrent responsibilities but overall just told to sit down and figure it out together. What would the result be? Would the coaches kill each other because they couldn't get along? Would the players be extremely confused because they coaches couldn't agree on "one" game plan? Or would the three of them actually figure it out, be able to support each other, and use their vast combined ability to our advantage? Give the players more comfort? Many teams in the SEL are using that strategy and my impression has only been positive.

I don't think we will see European coaches come into this league for real before the hierarchic coaching structure is lessened some. I think it will come for sure, but its going to take time. The NHL is very concervative. But like Slats talked yesterday about finding someone that had both Renney and Torts in him, a mix of the two. And I think we all would agree that that is perfect, but that those guys are hard to find. But if two guys who are paid millions -- can cooperate -- there is nothing stopping you from getting that from two guys instead of being able to find that one guy that is able to do it all. Its when you get that, the top European hockey minds could be valuble. Like a troika of Mark Messier, Dave Tippet and say Pelle MÃ¥rts (Swedish National Team coach with a tremendous hockey mind, but still some flaws that could be exposed instantly if used as headcoach in the NHL). Messier's experience and the precense he would bring as a coach in NY. Tippets knowledge of day-to-day coaching in the NHL. MÃ¥rts X and O hockey mind. Tell them to sit down together and pin something down, then bring it to the players.

This is how I would format my Organization if I were Slats:

GM/President -- Glen Sather. Same duties as today.

Advisory to Head Coaches -- Older former GM and coach. More or less recently retired. Has final say on any coaching issue. Is never behind the bench. Never really has any direct contact with the players. Watchin games from sitting next to Slats. Watching practises from the stands. Could be a "Scotty Bowman"-type. Wayne Gretzky. The advisor type. I will describe his function below.

1/3 Head coach -- Motivator. Cheif strategist during games in terms of match-ups. Shared responsibility in terms of game plan and X & O. For this position, you can use someone like Mark Messier/John Tortorella. Involved in X and O, but not responsible for it. Gets alot of support.

2/3 Head coach -- Shared responsibility in terms of game plan and X & O. Main duty offense, offensive X and O and PP. Any coach who is good at this, and can cooporate with others. A goog coach who is good at this, say a Dave Tippet/Alan Vignault/Tom Renney.

3/3 Head coach -- Shared responsibility in terms of game plan and X & O. Main duty defense, defensive X and O and PK. A goog coach who is good at this, say a Dave Tippet/Alan Vignault/Tom Renney.

Assistant coach -- A slightly smaller roll in relation to the normal assistent coach game time, normal role in terms of practises.

Goalie coach -- Typical goalie coach.

Video coach -- Responsible for stats and video.

How it works: The head coaches share all responsibility, cept for the actual duty to yell at the players to jump over the board, and to inform the players in certain areas game time. They sit down and agree on a game plan. If they cannot agree, they involve the cheif head coach and present their diffrent opinions, and the advisory to the head coach has -- between the options persented to him -- the final say.

It costs more. There are risks. But also a ton of potential. That's what I would do if I were Slats. Make sure to make all 3 coaches the best paid in the game. Get Gretzky/Bowman as Advisory to Head Coaches, Messier for the first HC role descibed. Alain Vignault for the 2/3 HC descibed, and say Tippet for the 3/3 role.
 
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Well, for one thing, Torre's winning % was .517 for three different teams over 12 seasons if you discount his years with the Yankees and his first managing gig with the Mets.

I believe .517 is something that buys no championships. And it is quite convenient to omit a team other than the Yankees in order to arrive at a statistic and then assign it meaning.
 
All of it, but I don't see how its relevant to the discussion here.

It is relevant because the topic is about the belief system that a coach supposedly hurt the Rangers this year and that the replacements being tossed out as saviors based on virtually nothing is nonsense to me.

Coaches come and go and the majority of fans end up hating almost every one of them. The ones they do not hate win a championship for them. The fact that they might have 20 other seaons in which they do not win points out that they are not very important to success nor distinguishable from each other.

Don't you realize that when the Rangers announce their new coach some here will be happy and some will moan about the horrific choice?

And not a single person knows how it will turn out.

At this time next year, the probability is that unless the Rangers parade the Cup down Broadway at least half the people here will be telling us how and why the coach is incompetent?
 
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I can 100% say mess would be a better coach than mcguire. And yes if he ever wanted to coach he would be a great coach. not hypocritical at all.

You can state a 100% certainty on a topic based on zero evidence?

You can't state a 100% certainty of what you will have for dinner tonight.
 
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Two different guys. I never said mess would be a good coach because he has 1800+ points. In that case, Oates shouldn't be a coach because gretzky sucked.

Difference is of the 3 guys you mention here ONLY one learned the coaching craft as an Assistant...If Mess wants to coach he should do what other guys have done, coach a junior team (Roy, Hunter) or be an assistant in the AHL (Beuk) or NHL.
 
The only hire I ever *****ed and moaned about was Sather. He is made of Teflon because of the perception of his being a great GM. He had one great draft year and had Messier and Gretzky dropped in his lap by other people.

Yet some believe him to be a great GM.
 
Warning: this is a long one. Haven't had a chance to join in the fray for a while now (nor am I up to speed on all of the rumors and hearsay about why Johnny Cakes got fired and who is going to replace him), but here's my two cents on this saga:

For most of his tenure, I've been totally split on Tortorella. Loved some of the things about him, detested some of the others. Can't help but think he is at least partially to blame for the lack of offense, particularly on the PP.

Still, I think it is absurd to fire a coach who took the team to the conference finals last season and didn't have a training camp, a big part of his whole system. You can't play his (over)demanding system without being in stellar shape. It helped them overachieve last season, and the lack of it led them to underachieve this season.

IF Lundqvist was the reason, then fine. I'm not going to doubt the best goaltender of his generation, and easily the biggest reason this franchise has had any success, as limited as it has been, since the lockout. If it is a Dolan/Sather reaction to some sort of media or fan pressure, or a suspicion of it, then it is a total overreaction.

No, I ultimately don't think that this team and this coach were going to win a championship, but is that necessarily going to change if the man behind the bench is different? I don't believe so. The problem is bigger than the coach; the problem is with the roster, and it always has been. That's always been the story. Under Tortorella, under Renney, under every other stooge or doom-destined man to coach a roster that has never, ever been properly constructed.

You can't win in this league without elite playmaking talent, creativity and depth down the middle. The Rangers still lack that, and that is not a dig at Stepan. He's a very, very good young player. But he's not that guy, not yet anyway. I'd give Richards one more season to find his game. That cap space isn't going to improve the team right now. Regardless, even if Richards turns it around, he's not that guy at this point in his career either.


Great post. Especially this.
 
and there is also a reason Mike Milbury isnt coaching either.. im shocked no one mentioned him yet... :sarcasm:

I would give anything to see Milbury jump into the stands and beat someone senseless with a shoe. We haven't had a good ole fashioned brawl in the seats in decades. :laugh:
 
It is relevant because the topic is about the belief system that a coach supposedly hurt the Rangers this year and that the replacements being tossed out as saviors based on virtually nothing is nonsense to me.

Coaches come and go and the majority of fans end up hating almost every one of them. The ones they do not hate win a championship for them. The fact that they might have 20 other seaons in which they do not win points out that they are not very important to success nor distinguishable from each other.

Don't you realize that when the Rangers announce their new coach some here will be happy and some will moan about the horrific choice?

And not a single person knows how it will turn out.

At this time next year, the probability is that unless the Rangers parade the Cup down Broadway at least half the people here will be telling us how and why the coach is incompetent?

I don't know.

I liked Renney when we signed him and I liked him during his time here. Renney came here and made the PO's for three straight years depite a really flawed roster, never missed the PO's (left a team in a PO position his 4th year), brought on a ton of kids etc. Like I am sure many have seen reading the old thread linked to, I was really frustrated when he was fired because people in media and at this place overrated the roster he had something tremendous. I never claimed that Renney could coach a winner, but I constantly claimed that we wheren't in a position to go from being close to winning, but instead still building because we just didn't even remotely had the roster for winning a Cup. I think he was fired too soon, Renney couldn't do squat with that roster, and Torts accomplished nothing despite strengthening that roster after Renney left.

I was really afraid when we hired Torts, which I wrote at this place, because he just had failed tremendously in Tampa. I even remember writing, when Torts was coaching in Tampa, that he and Hartley just had to adopt or they where going to be history sooner or later (and that was two of the top ranked coaches in the league just after the lockout). Now, every expert I've seen comment on this agreed with what I wrote before we got him.

Some at this place where of the same opinion of me, some wheren't. I would say that there normally is a pretty even camp with people supporting a coach as there are people not liking the coach.

People are mentioning Messier, we would have to wait and see since he is unproven, but I would be scared sheitless until I at least see some signs for him that he has realized what the game is about 2013 (that wasnät the case when we last saw him, he was a driving force that stood up 100% behind the 2003 coached Slats team).
 
This place... this place... is turning into the main boards. What is happening?

By turning into the main board I assume you mean this is a place where people do not use any logic, in fact they post as if they are adverse to doing so, people have absolutely zero respect for other people's opinions and people act as if their dog has been murdered when they see silly debate points like McGuire vs Mess rather than just enjoy the silliness.

Hate to tell you but that's kind of all this place has ever been even when I lurked for a while.
 
I believe he had Tampa scoring at 2.94 GAG and a 20+% power play while employing the 1-3-1, but he had a fluid system in place where the team used a 1-2-2 if the D-man didn't have total control of the puck and quickly transition to the 1-3-1 once they did. It totally frustrated the Caps in the series they had that season.
.

Just my opinion but I think it's more about the horses running the system and the architect of the team. In that regard the problem, the cancerous problem has been lingering for what almost two decades?

"Every year we don't win the cup (I have failed)" - paraphrasing Glen Sather yesterday. So nice of you to admit you still have your job despite being a monumental failure by your own admission you tub of dog ****. You haven't even won an ECF. In fact only once has your team ever even gone. There is no pier tall enough for your hockey career to jump off of and still satisfy me that it is truly dead. I would suggest that he's blowing Dolan in the bathroom stalls at MSG but of course that's just an angry fan speaking in vulgarities.

""I didn't want to go try it again for another season and be the guy making $12 million and doing absolutely nothing to help this team," -Gil meche

Naslund too. Sometimes pro's do the right thing.
 
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I mean...I get it. But such an NBA move, if true. It's now time to put up or shut up then.

NY media failed to realize that Torts was coaching this team in the wrong direction and was completely caught with their pants down, and where scrambling for some explanation last night.

If Brooks calls up a player that will answer his call, and ask if the players where against fireing Torts, I am sure he could get silence or "on one hand" or "on the other hand". Torts and Gabby obviously couldn't get along and hated each other (Gabby's tweets are pretty noteworthy, especially the one that got deleted...).

But reading the stuff we see now and many speculate on, that the players actively convinced Slats to axe Torts, that I very much doubt. They are litterary indicating that Hank gave Slats an ultimatum. I don't buy that at all.
 
bernmeister posts some odd things, but his suggestion earlier in the thread that we should hire Lena Dunham to coach this team was a little longer outside the box than usual. Anyone understood the reasoning behind her?

Not that I would mind a women coach, but...
 
With a fantasy team build around lottery picks. Even a baboon would perform as a coach in Pittsburgh. Nobody would be stupid enough to stick with Fleury in goal for so long though

I don't know. After watching the 24/7 series that featured the Penguins I found Bylsma to be very impressive.
 
But reading the stuff we see now and many speculate on, that the players actively convinced Slats to axe Torts, that I very much doubt. They are litterary indicating that Hank gave Slats an ultimatum. I don't buy that at all.

All I've read is that a source within the organization confirmed that multiple players expressed displeasure with Tortorella during their exit interviews with senior management. No ultimatums. No active effort to get him fired. But an understandable response by senior management, given the circumstances.
 
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