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my thoughts exactly. this guy runs a 1-3-1. so what?
also, you don't fire a guy like torts and hire boucher. torts has a cup. how many of the coaches available today or currently coaching can say that? also torts went to the east finals last year. ok hes gone. Boucher is the answer? its a complete downgrade.
Clown Fiesta
Registered User
Someone has to be the answer, we have no control over who it is, we can discuss what we like about the potential options, yes or no?
If you want an answer wait a few weeks.
Can't call Torts up and ask him to come back because the coaches available don't have a ring from 9 years ago.
Boruto
.
- Jun 27, 2011
- 15,613
- 436
Thank god we don't have to hire anyone or do anything around these parts except participate in casual discussions of various possibilities that may or may not be viable .
I don't think your memory is that good. Gretzky gets a bad rap for his coaching tenure in PHO. If you think this current Ranger team lacked talent, look at Gretzky's Coyotes.
08-09 PHoenix had 1 player score over 42 points. They went 36-39-0-7
07-08 Phoenix had only 1 player w/ over 56 points. They went 38-37-0-7.
06-07 Phoenix had 3 players with over 34 points (Nolan w/ 40, Nagy w/ 41 and Doan w/ 55. They went 31-46-0-5.
05-06 Phoenix had 2 players score in the 60's. They went 38-39-0-5.
yes you can talk about options. and i can talk about why they are stupid and why some options are better than others.
what are you the conversation police? only want to talk to people that agree with you? were all gonna wait barb, not just me.
a cup from 9 years ago or ever. im not saying firing torts was the wrong move but you dont fire him and sign a guy like guy boucher.
Ryan McDonut
Registered User
so only coaches who have won cups can get hired? wow that seriously limits our options.
Brad Richards has a Conn Smythe and led the Rangers in playoff scoring last season. Does that mean you build next year's Rangers around him?
yes, cause thats what I said.
some people do not have the ability to think critically and see decisions need to be made using rationality and reason. if boucher was the only option, torts would still be coaching.
NYR Sting
Heart and Soul
Warning: this is a long one. Haven't had a chance to join in the fray for a while now (nor am I up to speed on all of the rumors and hearsay about why Johnny Cakes got fired and who is going to replace him), but here's my two cents on this saga:
For most of his tenure, I've been totally split on Tortorella. Loved some of the things about him, detested some of the others. Can't help but think he is at least partially to blame for the lack of offense, particularly on the PP.
Still, I think it is absurd to fire a coach who took the team to the conference finals last season and didn't have a training camp, a big part of his whole system. You can't play his (over)demanding system without being in stellar shape. It helped them overachieve last season, and the lack of it led them to underachieve this season.
IF Lundqvist was the reason, then fine. I'm not going to doubt the best goaltender of his generation, and easily the biggest reason this franchise has had any success, as limited as it has been, since the lockout. If it is a Dolan/Sather reaction to some sort of media or fan pressure, or a suspicion of it, then it is a total overreaction.
No, I ultimately don't think that this team and this coach were going to win a championship, but is that necessarily going to change if the man behind the bench is different? I don't believe so. The problem is bigger than the coach; the problem is with the roster, and it always has been. That's always been the story. Under Tortorella, under Renney, under every other stooge or doom-destined man to coach a roster that has never, ever been properly constructed.
You can't win in this league without elite playmaking talent, creativity and depth down the middle. The Rangers still lack that, and that is not a dig at Stepan. He's a very, very good young player. But he's not that guy, not yet anyway. I'd give Richards one more season to find his game. That cap space isn't going to improve the team right now. Regardless, even if Richards turns it around, he's not that guy at this point in his career either.
The lack of such an integral piece of the puzzle was not solved with the acquisition of Rick Nash. Pure goalscorers like him, who are more or less one dimensional, are not players to build teams around. They are the guy you pair with those elite play developers. Sather, as usual, doesn't seem to grasp that Nash is in many ways similar to Marian Gaborik. Sure, he's bigger and stronger, more durable, and probably more effective. But like Gabs, he isn't notable in any way other than scoring. In the playoffs, he is not that difficult to eliminate as a consistent threat. He's predictable, and he doesn't do much besides try to force his way past numerous defenders, with and without the puck. It is no easier a task than Gaborik needing to find time and space so that he can use his best assets, his speed and shot.
Again, the problem lies with the man responsible for assembling this rag tag bunch. A ton of things to like about them, yes, and certainly a ton of players to admire; but they just aren't as good as the best teams in the league. Glen Sather has failed once again. When discussing the coaching change, he talked about how every season, the goal is to win a Stanley Cup, and how they failed to achieve that this season.
Glen Sather has had many, many tries to achieve that goal. Far more than almost any other peer in hockey or any other sport. He has never succeeded. The people he has brought in have never succeeded. Sather has produced largely mediocrity, at best, and probably would have achieved much less if not for Henrik Lundqvist.
How many seasons have to be wasted? How many coaches have to be hired and fired? How many trades? How many free agent signings? How many roster overhauls? How many chances can one man possibly get, how many mistakes can one man possibly make, how many times can one man fail to do his job before he loses it?
Sather again (and at this point I have lost track of how many times) deserves to lose his job. The man is incompetent. He does not understand how the game is played in 2013, which is why he has failed to win anything in 23 years (and without the best player of all-time and/or a team full of Hall of Famers). He is an embarrassment.
I know he won't get fired, though, so as far as who he should hire to replace John Tortorella, my pick would easily be Guy Boucher. Please, please, please don't hire another old timer or croney. Give someone with a fresh perspective a chance. Boucher got screwed in Tampa Bay. When he had the pieces, he did fine. His goaltending and defense sucked after that.
The focus now is on getting the offense to play, but that doesn't mean you want to stop being a great defensive team. Boucher can get this team to be at least tolerable offensively, IMO, while maintaining a top-10 defense. This is a smart, educated guy who understands the game at a deeper level. This team does not need any more motivation, Tortorella style or not. These guys are motivated, especially the captain and the best player. What they need is a tactician. They need to play smart, not just hard. Ron Wilson wouldn't be a bad second choice. Pretty indifferent about Vigneault. I think the Canucks should have won a championship during his tenure; they had the roster for it. Wasn't a huge fan of the job he did there.
For most of his tenure, I've been totally split on Tortorella. Loved some of the things about him, detested some of the others. Can't help but think he is at least partially to blame for the lack of offense, particularly on the PP.
Still, I think it is absurd to fire a coach who took the team to the conference finals last season and didn't have a training camp, a big part of his whole system. You can't play his (over)demanding system without being in stellar shape. It helped them overachieve last season, and the lack of it led them to underachieve this season.
IF Lundqvist was the reason, then fine. I'm not going to doubt the best goaltender of his generation, and easily the biggest reason this franchise has had any success, as limited as it has been, since the lockout. If it is a Dolan/Sather reaction to some sort of media or fan pressure, or a suspicion of it, then it is a total overreaction.
No, I ultimately don't think that this team and this coach were going to win a championship, but is that necessarily going to change if the man behind the bench is different? I don't believe so. The problem is bigger than the coach; the problem is with the roster, and it always has been. That's always been the story. Under Tortorella, under Renney, under every other stooge or doom-destined man to coach a roster that has never, ever been properly constructed.
You can't win in this league without elite playmaking talent, creativity and depth down the middle. The Rangers still lack that, and that is not a dig at Stepan. He's a very, very good young player. But he's not that guy, not yet anyway. I'd give Richards one more season to find his game. That cap space isn't going to improve the team right now. Regardless, even if Richards turns it around, he's not that guy at this point in his career either.
The lack of such an integral piece of the puzzle was not solved with the acquisition of Rick Nash. Pure goalscorers like him, who are more or less one dimensional, are not players to build teams around. They are the guy you pair with those elite play developers. Sather, as usual, doesn't seem to grasp that Nash is in many ways similar to Marian Gaborik. Sure, he's bigger and stronger, more durable, and probably more effective. But like Gabs, he isn't notable in any way other than scoring. In the playoffs, he is not that difficult to eliminate as a consistent threat. He's predictable, and he doesn't do much besides try to force his way past numerous defenders, with and without the puck. It is no easier a task than Gaborik needing to find time and space so that he can use his best assets, his speed and shot.
Again, the problem lies with the man responsible for assembling this rag tag bunch. A ton of things to like about them, yes, and certainly a ton of players to admire; but they just aren't as good as the best teams in the league. Glen Sather has failed once again. When discussing the coaching change, he talked about how every season, the goal is to win a Stanley Cup, and how they failed to achieve that this season.
Glen Sather has had many, many tries to achieve that goal. Far more than almost any other peer in hockey or any other sport. He has never succeeded. The people he has brought in have never succeeded. Sather has produced largely mediocrity, at best, and probably would have achieved much less if not for Henrik Lundqvist.
How many seasons have to be wasted? How many coaches have to be hired and fired? How many trades? How many free agent signings? How many roster overhauls? How many chances can one man possibly get, how many mistakes can one man possibly make, how many times can one man fail to do his job before he loses it?
Sather again (and at this point I have lost track of how many times) deserves to lose his job. The man is incompetent. He does not understand how the game is played in 2013, which is why he has failed to win anything in 23 years (and without the best player of all-time and/or a team full of Hall of Famers). He is an embarrassment.
I know he won't get fired, though, so as far as who he should hire to replace John Tortorella, my pick would easily be Guy Boucher. Please, please, please don't hire another old timer or croney. Give someone with a fresh perspective a chance. Boucher got screwed in Tampa Bay. When he had the pieces, he did fine. His goaltending and defense sucked after that.
The focus now is on getting the offense to play, but that doesn't mean you want to stop being a great defensive team. Boucher can get this team to be at least tolerable offensively, IMO, while maintaining a top-10 defense. This is a smart, educated guy who understands the game at a deeper level. This team does not need any more motivation, Tortorella style or not. These guys are motivated, especially the captain and the best player. What they need is a tactician. They need to play smart, not just hard. Ron Wilson wouldn't be a bad second choice. Pretty indifferent about Vigneault. I think the Canucks should have won a championship during his tenure; they had the roster for it. Wasn't a huge fan of the job he did there.
The top 2 goal scorers for Tippet were new to the team. Lombardi came at the prior trade deadline and Vrbata came in the offseason. Younger players like Yandle started showing meaningful development.
What's not different is that having success with a different group of players about 10 years ago doesn't mean a guy can duplicate that success elsewhere.
Fair enough then.
To be totally fair, they still weren't breaking scoring records but I think Tippet is a great coach. I don't think Gretzky is a great coach but he wasn't as bad as people make him out to be.
there is no point to this. by that logic all head coaches in the market are on an even playing field. thats not the case.
Clown Fiesta
Registered User
You're not even doing that... You're basically just saying, "any option but Messier is stupid and this is so because I personally think Messier would be a great coach if he coached, which he doesn't but what does that matter? because I'm saying he would be great, so he would be, ok guys? You're all dumb and I am smart *pound chest*."
You're not even discussing the merits of Messier as a coach other than saying he is a "Hockey God" and you're not using any sort of rationalization when saying "you can't fire Torts and hire Boucher (or anyone)" you're just saying you can't.
Dude, I'm a very opinionated person I'll gladly admit that, but what does that make you?
No I don't want everyone to agree with me, who cares, but semi intelligent discussion would be a plus. Which you're not offering, so farewell.
I understood your original point, but you articulated it well and I'm inclined to agree with you.
GOAT post. I agree with every single thing on here, besides the coaches. Don't know much about Boucher to formulate an opinion, but the Bolts had bad possession numbers the past 2 yrs.
RothmanHockey
Registered User
Just posted my article to Inside Hockey, wherein I discuss why this is a move looking towards the future, not a move because of the past:
http://insidehockey.com/firing-tortorella-about-future-not-past
I wasn't able to record the conference call today, but my article does include a full transcript of the 21-minute conference call with Sather.
http://insidehockey.com/firing-tortorella-about-future-not-past
I wasn't able to record the conference call today, but my article does include a full transcript of the 21-minute conference call with Sather.
Clown Fiesta
Registered User
BBKers
Registered User
Guess who is still buzzed from the champagne fumes in the bedroom after celebrating The End Of the Stone Age yesterday? Cannot again say how happy this makes me. Like I said before (not quoting my source but now I can say he is someone very acquainted with The King here in Sweden that I am business with) and has now been confirmed, Torts lost the locker room. Hank led this fraction - or "mutiny" as the Torts apologists will call it. It probably accelerated and became crystal clear on breakup day when the players individually spoke with management. Avery was spot on.
Moving on, give it some time. Skeptical at best to names like Ruff, Boucher, AV, Crawford, Schoeny. Lavoliette, Sacco - and McGuire is a joke. Names I find intriguing are Larry Robinsson, Dallas Eakins (been saying this name for a year now) or Tippett. Babcock is a pipe dream. Ulf Samuelsson IMO is not ready for being head coach, but maybe an assistant ( he left Modo). Great old names like Messier and Gretzky scare the hell out of me. Gorton is also an interesting name but most likely is the future NYR GM.
Gotta believe that our assistant coach gets canned as well, but then again I think this became personal (not a result or philosophy based canning) and he was shown the plank when a few key guys said "enough is enough". The Kreider treatment, throwing Hagelin under the bus, benching Richards (which was warranted), getting so little offensive production out of this team and criticizing management wrote this all over the wall! thanx again!!!!
Walk your dogs outta Manhattan on the Brooklyn Bridge now you bum!
Moving on, give it some time. Skeptical at best to names like Ruff, Boucher, AV, Crawford, Schoeny. Lavoliette, Sacco - and McGuire is a joke. Names I find intriguing are Larry Robinsson, Dallas Eakins (been saying this name for a year now) or Tippett. Babcock is a pipe dream. Ulf Samuelsson IMO is not ready for being head coach, but maybe an assistant ( he left Modo). Great old names like Messier and Gretzky scare the hell out of me. Gorton is also an interesting name but most likely is the future NYR GM.
Gotta believe that our assistant coach gets canned as well, but then again I think this became personal (not a result or philosophy based canning) and he was shown the plank when a few key guys said "enough is enough". The Kreider treatment, throwing Hagelin under the bus, benching Richards (which was warranted), getting so little offensive production out of this team and criticizing management wrote this all over the wall! thanx again!!!!
Walk your dogs outta Manhattan on the Brooklyn Bridge now you bum!
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