Confirmed with Link: [TOR/WPG] TOR trades Par Lindholm to WPG for Nic Petan

[ACC1224]

tor-trades-par-lindholm-to-wpg

Over due, IMO.

 

[deletethis]

I like the meat and potatoes analogy. Players like Hyman are the broccoli on the side: necessary for better health but not so savoury. I can remember having my protests over forcing down the mushy bitter greens on my plate wondering out loud why the entire meal wasn't meat and potatoes. I got over it.

 

[ottomaddox]

Are our cupboards that well stocked that we don't need to make any TDL trades?

Who steps in if Hainsey gets injured?

(In no way am I saying that Hainsey is Bobby Orr and elite FYI).

We'll see how this plays out.

I was never satisfied with our 4th line, so I'll credit Dubas for tinkering there. Yes I know he got Muzzin a month ago, but did that satisfy? I don't think so

 

[Macallan18]

How's he supposed to do that? Who defines "properly"? Is it the GM's job to make the defence pairings, line combos, PP units and to tell the coach who gets how much ice time?

What does a GM do when he makes a great trade for a good d=man (Muzzin) the Coach plays him with Rielly for 6 games to great effect and the team is winning and the Coach says naaaahhhh, I'm putting him on the third pairing and cutting his ice time?
GM can't micro manage a Coach, but if the Coach repeatedly does stupid things, there is only one solution.

 

[zeke]

There are hundreds of "elements" you could look at, it's arbitrary IMHO to say that these couple you picked are somehow more crucial than the others.

these three things would always be the first thing I look at to see which team's may be over and underachieving in points.

For example:

Are you sure that winning close games is really just luck?

not just luck, but yes it's well established that 1goal games are hugely dependant on luck.

As for the West being "much" weaker, I'm curious as to what you're basing this on.

it's as weak a conference as we've seen in a while.

MIN with the 8th best record in the West is on pace for 86pts.

BUF and PHI, whose seasons have been over for a while now, have better records than that.

Calgary's division only has 2 teams on pace for more than 90pts. only 3 for more than 83pts.

it's crazy how bad the West is this year.

 

[Macallan18]

no doubt.

in which case the gm is forced to trade guys away.

not a good way to run the team long-term though.

hmmm, how do you trade a coach?

 

[KuleminFan41]

no it's not.

rielly/muzzin/Gardiner and buff/morrissey/trouba are comparable up top, but I'll take dermott/hainsey/Zaitsev over myers/chiarot/kulikov any day.



similar depth, but the Leafs are significantly better at the top - matthews/tavares/Marner is hands down better than scheifele/wheeler/Laine.

Their D core got them to the conference finals . The Leafs did add Muzzin but they still are playing Hainsey a lot and the D has more question marks than Winnipeg's for a reason. Wheeler and Scheifele have more points than Tavares and Marner(not that its the be all end all) and like I said, Laine has been having a down year. The forward group is a lot closer than you're giving them credit for.

All that is fair to a certain degree but this year vs last year is not exactly what's the talking point here. The Leafs are significantly stronger on paper versus last season. Vegas went to the Finals last year and barely anybody picks them to be cup contenders.

The Leafs lost plenty of players to injuries this season too. Sure losing Rielly would have hurt but we've lost Matthews for a good month or so, we didn't have Nylander for awhile (or completely snake bitten), we've had Kadri, Hyman and Johnsson injured for stretches. Not sure it matters much that they've lost Byfuglien for awhile with their superior defensive depth.

The Leafs are also in the same division as the best team in the league and probably another top 5 team according to most. It's the hardest division this season.

I hear you but last year plays a factor into this season as well. They have the more experienced team, they went further in the playoffs and beat the presidents trophy winners Nashville, who had gone to the cup finals the previous year. You're partly right about injuries to the Leafs because while Matthews has been hurt and Nylander was out, do we really think Nylander wouldn't have been signed in the Summer had Tavares chose San Jose instead? Ehlers, and Byfuglien have played at least 10 games less than Kadri, Matthews , Hyman and Johnsson so they've had 2 important pieces out longer and they're still doing very well. The thing is, I'm not so sure its easier to win after losing your best defencemen over your best forward. Especially seeing as Marner has emerged as this monster . All I'm saying is that some people aren't giving Winnipeg enough credit , I think both teams are elite level teams capable of winning the cup, I just think Winnipeg is closer for this season.

 

[Bluelines]

no doubt.

in which case the gm is forced to trade guys away.

not a good way to run the team long-term though.

Which is a narrative that is totally bonkers and no logical person would believe, right?

 

[ToneDog]

Are our cupboards that well stocked that we don't need to make any TDL trades?

Who steps in if Hainsey gets injured?

(In no way am I saying that Hainsey is Bobby Orr and elite FYI).

We'll see how this plays out.

I was never satisfied with our 4th line, so I'll credit Dubas for tinkering there. Yes I know he got Muzzin a month ago, but did that satisfy? I don't think so

The 4th line plays 8 minutes per game and can be sheltered. There is no sheltering the right side of our D. Sticking with a year older Hainsey and Z is risky and there will lots of explaining to do if those two are shredded by Pasta and company and Leaf lose in round 1.

 

[Gary Nylund]

no doubt.

in which case the gm is forced to trade guys away.

not a good way to run the team long-term though.

I agree, trading guys away is a horrible way to do things. If I was the GM I'd talk to the coach and if he didn't listen and I felt his decisions were sub-optimal to an unacceptable degree then I'd fire him, nothing else makes sense IMO.

I'm also under the impression that you feel Babcock is messing up, I would just add that he's a part of the team so if with another coach we'd be the 2nd best team and with him we're the 5th best or whatever, then we're the 5th best, period.

What does a GM do when he makes a great trade for a good d=man (Muzzin) the Coach plays him with Rielly for 6 games to great effect and the team is winning and the Coach says naaaahhhh, I'm putting him on the third pairing and cutting his ice time?
GM can't micro manage a Coach, but if the Coach repeatedly does stupid things, there is only one solution.

Agreed. IMO our biggest problem right now is our defence pairings. Hainsey had the most ice time of any player last night and Muzzin on the 3rd pair ... if this is going to be our plan against Boston I'd consider firing the coach now TBH. I appreciate what Babcock has done for us but I'm not sure how much I trust him going forward TBH.

these three things would always be the first thing I look at to see which team's may be over and underachieving in points.

not just luck, but yes it's well established that 1goal games are hugely dependant on luck.

it's as weak a conference as we've seen in a while.

MIN with the 8th best record in the West is on pace for 86pts.

BUF and PHI, whose seasons have been over for a while now, have better records than that.

Calgary's division only has 2 teams on pace for more than 90pts. only 3 for more than 83pts.

it's crazy how bad the West is this year.

Are 1 goal games really that dependant on luck? When/how was this established?

I do think goal differential is significant, not sure how significant though. WSH wasn't great in that category last season so there is that.

I just had a quick peek and at a glance it looks like you're right, the West really is weak. Not sure how much that detracts from Calgary's record, no idea at all in fact how to do that calculation but yeah, the West seems to suck.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Agreed. IMO our biggest problem right now is our defence pairings. Hainsey had the most ice time of any player last night and Muzzin on the 3rd pair ... if this is going to be our plan against Boston I'd consider firing the coach now TBH. I appreciate what Babcock has done for us but I'm not sure how much I trust him going forward TBH.

Yeah hard to fathom that babcock still thinks it's a good thing to play Hainsey all these minutes. The "he has no other options" narrative is bs
And this is what he does time and time again - plays guys like Hunwick, Polak, Komarov to the point where it gets ridiculous - and yet he forges ahead like he's blind to it

 

[SprDaVE]

I hear you but last year plays a factor into this season as well. They have the more experienced team, they went further in the playoffs and beat the presidents trophy winners Nashville, who had gone to the cup finals the previous year. You're partly right about injuries to the Leafs because while Matthews has been hurt and Nylander was out, do we really think Nylander wouldn't have been signed in the Summer had Tavares chose San Jose instead? Ehlers, and Byfuglien have played at least 10 games less than Kadri, Matthews , Hyman and Johnsson so they've had 2 important pieces out longer and they're still doing very well. The thing is, I'm not so sure its easier to win after losing your best defencemen over your best forward. Especially seeing as Marner has emerged as this monster . All I'm saying is that some people aren't giving Winnipeg enough credit , I think both teams are elite level teams capable of winning the cup, I just think Winnipeg is closer for this season.

I just don't think it's really fair to take that team from last year and say they are good/better this season for it when for a large part, they've been an inferior team compared to the Leafs in an inferior conference and division. I don't see a single analyst or fan making the Caps a cup contender this season despite actually winning last season... probably because they've struggled but they largely have the same team. So why do the Jets get a pass for not being overly great just because on paper they are strong and last season they went "far" in the playoffs. It's a little weird.

One could argue the only thing that got them to the conference finals last year was their goaltender, whereas we lost in the first round because of our goaltending. Hellebuyck was so much better than Andersen in the playoffs.

The Jets have a good team on paper but the Leafs have been the better team this season. The only thing going for them is that they will likely play a much inferior team in the first round of the playoffs, so I guess they are better in that way.

 

[BodaciousBeefBazooka]

21 pages discussing a couple plugs.....ya babbyy

 

[Buds17]

Lindholm was a pending UFA that would've likely been without a spot in a healthy lineup. An opportunity to convert that into a player who could regularly step into the lineup next season - considering the possibility of some UFA/trade turnover there - seems like a chance worth taking. If Petan is able to get in some big game opportunities prior to that, all the better for this trade.

 

[ottomaddox]

The 4th line plays 8 minutes per game and can be sheltered. There is no sheltering the right side of our D. Sticking with a year older Hainsey and Z is risky and there will lots of explaining to do if those two are shredded by Pasta and company and Leaf lose in round 1.

Agreed.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I just don't think it's really fair to take that team from last year and say they are good/better this season for it when for a large part, they've been an inferior team compared to the Leafs in an inferior conference and division. I don't see a single analyst of fan making the Caps a cup contender this season despite actually winning last season... probably because they've struggled but they largely have the same team. So why do the Jets get a pass for not being overly great just because on paper they are strong and last season they went "far" in the playoffs. It's a little weird.

One could argue the only thing that got them to the conference finals last year was their goaltender, whereas we lost in the first round because of our goaltending. Hellebuyck was so much better than Andersen in the playoffs.

The Jets have a good team on paper but the Leafs have been the better team this season. The only thing going for them is that they will likely play a much inferior team in the first round of the playoffs, so I guess they are better in that way.

These are all fair points. A couple of thoughts:

Your point that most don't consider the Caps a contender - I think this was true a year ago as well.
Hellybuck better than Andersen in the playoffs - true.

IMHO:

This just goes to show how much parity there is in the league, how arbitrary it is to say which teams are contenders and which teams aren't and most importantly IMO - however much things change over the years, one thing hasn't changed and that is that come playoff time, goaltending is almost everything and without it, winning is almost impossible. Goal differential, OT win's losses, how strong the conference is or isn't and for that matter where a team finishes in the regular season, all those things are nice but whoever has the hot goalie is probably going to do well IMO. In that regard I like our chances, Andersen is unproven in the playoffs but I don't care, he looks really good to me right about now.

 

[nuck]

Muzzin is better than any player that a team the Leafs would have to face in the playoffs got.. I dont quite understand your complaining other than to just complain.

My comment was in response to Babcock being out the door if they go down to the Bruins, not a general complaint. The Leafs weak spot was not LD. Their record since the Muzzin deal has not been spectacular. I love the acquisition but with no RD solution they have not really made themselves tougher to play against. If you believe this is a Cup ready lineup just waiting to gel then Babcock should be worried. If you believe when a club passes them in the standings since the Muzzin trade, and still makes an add is something that Dubas should have paid attention to, then maybe KD should be looking in the mirror if they go out early.

I think Babs is closer to the axe, only because he has been around longer, and its easier for Shanny to say they need a change behind the bench, rather than axe Dubas, who was just promoted. In defence of Dubas, he may be 100% against rentals and have been busting his hump for some solutions with term. If the most he could handle was an own rental of Gardiner, then his hands were somewhat tied. I doubt Shanny would fault him too much for that. I know I wanted adds with at least another year so I will almost always support building vs renting moves.

 

[Kazparov]

I think Babs is closer to the axe, only because he has been around longer, and its easier for Shanny to say they need a change behind the bench, rather than axe Dubas, who was just promoted. In defence of Dubas, he may be 100% against rentals and have been busting his hump for some solutions with term. If the most he could handle was an own rental of Gardiner, then his hands were somewhat tied. I doubt Shanny would fault him too much for that. I know I wanted adds with at least another year so I will almost always support building vs renting moves.

I agree 100% and in fact I would go as far to say there is almost zero chance Dubas gets replaced. Not landing a RHD at the trade deadline is easy to criticize but we don't have the facts on what it would have cost.

 

[Gary Nylund]

My comment was in response to Babcock being out the door if they go down to the Bruins, not a general complaint. The Leafs weak spot was not LD. Their record since the Muzzin deal has not been spectacular. I love the acquisition but with no RD solution they have not really made themselves tougher to play against. If you believe this is a Cup ready lineup just waiting to gel then Babcock should be worried. If you believe when a club passes them in the standings since the Muzzin trade, and still makes an add is something that Dubas should have paid attention to, then maybe KD should be looking in the mirror if they go out early.

I think Babs is closer to the axe, only because he has been around longer, and its easier for Shanny to say they need a change behind the bench, rather than axe Dubas, who was just promoted. In defence of Dubas, he may be 100% against rentals and have been busting his hump for some solutions with term. If the most he could handle was an own rental of Gardiner, then his hands were somewhat tied. I doubt Shanny would fault him too much for that. I know I wanted adds with at least another year so I will almost always support building vs renting moves.

Agree 100% especially with building vs renting.
I don't see how we can ever blame a GM for not making a deal, deals are hard to make and if the best possible deals out there were bad for us then he did the right thing by not making them.

That said, I was really hoping something would happen, specifically bringing in a RHD. As it is, our D is basically a clusterf..k, the whole seems to be so much weaker than the sum of it's parts and this is to me by far my biggest concern about this team heading into the playoffs.

I really don't care what Babcock has done for us so far, you only get so many chances to win and you can't afford to waste any of them. He has the clout, the resume, the contract and so on, it's time for him to produce. If last night was a preview of how our Dmen are going to be used then we're in trouble. Playing Hainsey almost 6 minutes more than Gardiner is a joke IMHO.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

What does a GM do when he makes a great trade for a good d=man (Muzzin) the Coach plays him with Rielly for 6 games to great effect and the team is winning and the Coach says naaaahhhh, I'm putting him on the third pairing and cutting his ice time?
GM can't micro manage a Coach, but if the Coach repeatedly does stupid things, there is only one solution.

 

[Trapper]

I agree 100% and in fact I would go as far to say there is almost zero chance Dubas gets replaced. Not landing a RHD at the trade deadline is easy to criticize but we don't have the facts on what it would have cost.

The trade deadline is a terrible time to try and land a piece that needs to be here long term.
With Gardiner and Hainsey UFA, Dubas needs to work hard in the summer to land us a Pesce (or similar) moving forward.
Our right side is hurting.

Watch the playoffs, see how we do and make an unbiased assessment of where we are weak.

 

[Buds17]

I agree 100% and in fact I would go as far to say there is almost zero chance Dubas gets replaced. Not landing a RHD at the trade deadline is easy to criticize but we don't have the facts on what it would have cost.

Definitely. I believe the only RHD to move close to the trade deadline were Jensen and Montour. Much depends on one's opinion of them as upgrades and fits in the Leafs lineup, if the trade return was there (particularly for Montour), and if the player was willing to skip UFA to re-sign (Jensen).

 

[1specter]

Yeah that is the main problem, but there are other ways you can make sure to optimize TOI distribution. If we have our second PK in a short while, why not go more than one shift where we top the lineup a bit? If there's a lot of PKs, the extra time a Hainsey plays should be derived in part from the mount of time Hainsey spends at ES. That doesn't happen, instead those minutes of ice time is taken from better players.

Fair argument and I agree. I personally don't want Hainsey playing more than 15-16 minutes a game, and doing so in sheltered minutes.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Their record since the Muzzin deal has not been spectacular.

Their record in that time would be a 115 point pace?

The Muzzin acquisition gave us a solution. Babcock is just not using it.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Their record in that time would be a 115 point pace?

The Muzzin acquisition gave us a solution. Babcock is just not using it.

well to be fair, Muzzin was 2nd among D in TOI for us against Buffalo. We'll see if Babcock continues to use him more