Confirmed Signing with Link: [TOR] Marner re-signs (6 years, $10.893M AAV) Part III

[leaffaninvancouver]

I agree with you. It is easier for a GM to sell playing for Toronto than TB. When the Marner negotiations were ongoing, Toronto fans were bringing up the endorsements he would make in Toronto that he could sign for a team friendlier deal. Now that he hasn't. Posters are inferring that it is not that much. Maybe it is as you said, Dubas is just not a very good negotiator.

In what world is it easier to sell Toronto over Tampa? Unless you want to play on the biggest stage Toronto can be extremely intimidating. Everything you do is under the microscope, the only worse market for media is Montreal and that's because French hockey media makes English hockey media look dull and docile. Lower taxes, better weather and the ability to blend in makes Tampa more attractive to a lot of players.

If Matthews played for Tampa he's getting a lot less media coverage over his court case. Toronto might treat you like a God if you win but it's still one of the hardest markets to play for.

Edit.

Oh and just to clarify that's not a slam on Montreal or Quebec, just French hockey media is a little nuts sometimes.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Excepting that he signed two of them for 5-6 years at what he should had given for 8...

Just for curiosity, what do you think that AM was gonna make if signed for 8 years?

I'm not sure but if they all went max term you're looking at another 5-7 million at least I'm sure for the four of them. That means a lot less money to the rest of the roster. I'd rather have a team built for 5 great years than 8 good ones.

 

[Saidin]

*Centre

Center or Centre–Which Is Right?

 

[nturn06]

In what world is it easier to sell Toronto over Tampa? Unless you want to play on the biggest stage Toronto can be extremely intimidating. Everything you do is under the microscope, the only worse market for media is Montreal and that's because French hockey media makes English hockey media look dull and docile. Lower taxes, better weather and the ability to blend in makes Tampa more attractive to a lot of players.

If Matthews played for Tampa he's getting a lot less media coverage over his court case. Toronto might treat you like a God if you win but it's still one of the hardest markets to play for.

You do realise that the implication is: Toronto has the worst fans in NHL... Your implication.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

You do realise that the implication is: Toronto has the worst fans in NHL... Your implication.

Not really just passionate, passion is a double edged sword though. If you win in Toronto they will love you forever. If anything though it's the media that's the worst, the fans aren't the ones writing nonstop about every possible thing they do.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Many people will disagree with you. Plus Point is goal scoring Center, Marner is a playmaking winger. Funny how the narrative changes. Goals are more important that assists...Centers are more valuable than wingers....Wish you guys would make up your minds....

Marner v Point, which contract do you prefer?

Goal scoring is more important. 5v5 they're comparable in goal scoring, but on the PP Marner's primary production more than outweighs Point's edge in goal scoring.

It's cute how you appeal to main boards thoughts about Leafs players in a poll, it's like your little safe space.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Center or Centre–Which Is Right?

I'm not sure what this is supposed to be telling me that I don't already know.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Sort of like everyone has the bare numbers on taxes but nobody knows the specifics of players' situations and therefore how much they're actually paying.

The advantage for Florida residents is well documented. Not so much the endorsement benefits for Toronto players.

The idea that Point won't be a Bolt long-term is cute. Like we've lost so many core players thus far. Nobody wants to stay. They all leave for money when their bridge deal is up.

I never said he wouldn't stay? But it does give him all the leverage on his next contract, thanks for bringing that up.

I love the conversations:

hfboard: Dubas should had signed AM and MM for 8 years.
Leafs fans: no longer term would had been more expensive, Dubas is a genius for saving money.

hfboard: Point got a better deal.
Leafs fans: but we signed our players long term, Dubas is a genius.

Dubas signed his players for as long as he could and fully optimized the use of the cap. Yes he did a great job, not sure what you're on about.

 

[nturn06]

I'm not sure but if they all went max term you're looking at another 5-7 million at least I'm sure for the four of them. That means a lot less money to the rest of the roster. I'd rather have a team built for 5 great years than 8 good ones.

I really don't see how you can sell that it is OK to give MM 4 more mils per year than Point, because you locked him up for 3 extra years, but at the same time think that 1 extra million for 2 extra years would be stupid.

Also, if you really want 5 great years, and don't care what happens after that, the smart thing is to sign MM at 5 for lower amount. Giving away extra money because you don't want to negociate again with MM and AM at the same time makes exactly 0 sense.... Actually, after this year's experience, you guys should realise that negociating with MM before AM would be better for the neam.

Anyhow, if you really think this, signing AM and MM to bridge would had given you enough cap space to add an extra star player to that group, this would give you 3 even more great years... But let me guess, that would be wrong because something something.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Anyhow, if you really think this, signing AM and MM to bridge would had given you enough cap space to add an extra star player to that group, this would give you 3 even more great years... But let me guess, that would be wrong because something something.

What if I'm just looking forward to five years of not having to hear about how will we sign the four of them? I think the contract is expensive but I also think overpaying slightly for stars and making smart moves to find depth is better than overpaying for journeymen and vets.

I like the vision Dubas has for this team, I also think once that TV deal is signed the cap is going to increase and we'd end up paying considerably more.

As for Tampa, I don't know what Faustian bargain they've made to constantly have players take less than their worth. These players are taking less than they should be but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I agree with you. It is easier for a GM to sell playing for Toronto than TB. When the Marner negotiations were ongoing, Toronto fans were bringing up the endorsements he would make in Toronto that he could sign for a team friendlier deal. Now that he hasn't. Posters are inferring that it is not that much. Maybe it is as you said, Dubas is just not a very good negotiator.

Add to the fact that these guys were RFAs. Dubas did a poor job. I dont know how people can dispute that. They can still win and be a good team but he put them in a tough position in the future if the cap doesnt go up too much. This season he put them in a tough spot if they get some injuries. Leaf fans are the biggest homers of any team. Any criticism of their team is like death to them and they cling to the homer opinion with dear life it seems. Why cant they just admit their gm did a poor job??

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Add to the fact that these guys were RFAs. Dubas did a poor job. I dont know how people can dispute that.Marner v Point, which contract do you prefer? They can still win and be a good team but he put them in a tough position in the future if the cap doesnt go up too much. This season he put them in a tough spot if they get some injuries. Leaf fans are the biggest homers of any team. Any criticism of their team is like death to them and they cling to the homer opinion with dear life it seems. Why cant they just admit their gm did a poor job??

Dubas contracts are outliers we knew this before the other RFA's starting signing, we certainly know this now after the RFA signings came in. Let's call a spade a spade. He is a horrible negotiator. He can't sell playing in Toronto or in the endorsement rich opportunities the market offers, he did a poor job indeed. We all know this. Good post.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

In what world is it easier to sell Toronto over Tampa? Unless you want to play on the biggest stage Toronto can be extremely intimidating. Everything you do is under the microscope, the only worse market for media is Montreal and that's because French hockey media makes English hockey media look dull and docile. Lower taxes, better weather and the ability to blend in makes Tampa more attractive to a lot of players.

If Matthews played for Tampa he's getting a lot less media coverage over his court case. Toronto might treat you like a God if you win but it's still one of the hardest markets to play for.

Edit.

Oh and just to clarify that's not a slam on Montreal or Quebec, just French hockey media is a little nuts sometimes.

There is a lot of stuff you added to my single point of playing for the Toronto Maple Leafs offers much more lucrative endorsement opportunities than TB.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

There is a lot of stuff you added to my single point of playing for the Toronto Maple Leafs offers much more lucrative endorsement opportunities than TB.

Yes, generally when you compare two markets you try and look at more than just one factor..

 

[elmaco]

Reports saying Rantanen is getting 9mil, what differentiates Rantanen and Marner that justifies a 2mil bigger cap hit? Marner is overpaid imo.

 

[nturn06]

What if I'm just looking forward to five years of not having to hear about how will we sign the four of them? I think the contract is expensive but I also think overpaying slightly for stars and making smart moves to find depth is better than overpaying for journeymen and vets.

I like the vision Dubas has for this team, I also think once that TV deal is signed the cap is going to increase and we'd end up paying considerably more.

As for Tampa, I don't know what Faustian bargain they've made to constantly have players take less than their worth. These players are taking less than they should be but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

To me it looks like Tampa got Stamkos for a very good deal, and that established a reputation of good negociator for the GM, and forced the players also to get into the line... Once the team got 2-3 very good deals, the players are less likely to make unreasonable demands.

On another hand, it leaked to the press that, during their negociation, last moment Tavares called Dubas and asked for 2 extra milions, and he said yes.... Even if the rumour is not true (which may be the case), everyone gets the message that in the first major negociation Dubas cave in and paid much more than he wanted... Add to this the Nylander saga, where the outside look is that Dubas caved in again (may not be the case, but this is how it looks ). If the outside impression is that Dubas caved in with his first two major signings, then AM and MM overpaiments were inevitable...


Just my 2 cents..

 

[Legion34]

Add to the fact that these guys were RFAs. Dubas did a poor job. I dont know how people can dispute that. They can still win and be a good team but he put them in a tough position in the future if the cap doesnt go up too much. This season he put them in a tough spot if they get some injuries. Leaf fans are the biggest homers of any team. Any criticism of their team is like death to them and they cling to the homer opinion with dear life it seems. Why cant they just admit their gm did a poor job??

I think many people think that even WITH the tax advantages. Tampa still got a better deal than Toronto. I certainly do.

But to act like a systemic and calculated inherent tax advantage is in any way equal to a specific player going out and getting endorsements that are outside of a contract and every player has equal right to seek is ridiculous.

Points deal is better than marners. Taxes or not. The taxes magnify the difference. Sure.

I personally think marner is 1 million over paid. We will see with the last 3

 

[Menzinger]

The idea that Point won't be a Bolt long-term is cute. Like we've lost so many core players thus far. Nobody wants to stay. They all leave for money when their bridge deal is up.

It's hard to argue that the Bolts havent done well on most contracts (goaltending aside), but I think it's a bit presumptuous to presume.the team will be without issues. If lack of playoff success continues a guy who gave the team a sweetheart of a deal may look for a larger financial reward when time comes for the third contract

Edit: typo

 

[Tripod]

Reports saying Rantanen is getting 9mil, what differentiates Rantanen and Marner that justifies a 2mil bigger cap hit? Marner is overpaid imo.

Depends on term.

If Rants signs for:

4-5 years...then it can be debated
6 years...then it's clear Dubas overpaid M&M
7-8 years...then it just becomes downright laughable how much of an outlier M&M are

Until term and numbers are finalized, we speculate. But with Rants and Marner's both being wingers and having very comparable numbers, their contract differences will be heavily scrutinized....if there is one.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I think many people think that even WITH the tax advantages. Tampa still got a better deal than Toronto. I certainly do.

But to act like a systemic and calculated inherent tax advantage is in any way equal to a specific player going out and getting endorsements that are outside of a contract and every player has equal right to seek is ridiculous.

Points deal is better than marners. Taxes or not. The taxes magnify the difference. Sure.

Every player has the right to seek it yes but its way more likely for a player in Toronto than a player in TB. And is way more likely to get more money than a player from TB. Leaf fans were pushing this narrative nonstop when Stamkos was a UFA. Now the spinning starts when people point it out. Its hypocrisy at its finest.

 

[DFC]

The advantage for Florida residents is well documented. Not so much the endorsement benefits for Toronto players.

So what about players who play in Canada but live in the US? Shouldn't they be taking a very similar discount? Why don't they?

I never said he wouldn't stay? But it does give him all the leverage on his next contract, thanks for bringing that up.

People say **** like this to us all the time. Then the player signs for a discount and they complain about taxes, while moving on to the next young player we'll "never be able to afford." Then that player signs at a discount too. Repeat.

Dubas signed his players for as long as he could and fully optimized the use of the cap. Yes he did a great job, not sure what you're on about.

If you want to believe that giving 41% of your cap to three players is "optimizing it," well, Dubas can just do no wrong in your eyes. I'm not saying he screwed the team up. I'm just saying there's no way to look at those contracts and think he did a good job negotiating them.

 

[CupsOverCash]

It's hard to argue that the Bolts havent done well on most contracts (goaltending aside), but I think it's a bit presumptuous to presume.the team will be without issues. If lack of playoff success co tonnes a guy who gave the team a sweetheart of a deal may look for a larger financial reward when time comes for the third contract

Based on how things have gone I wouldnt bet on him leaving if I was a betting man. It feels/seems like hope to some others that he doesnt. Thats all its ever been. Hope that the Lightning wont be able to re-sign their guys so that they can go to UFA. This structure is pissing people off because all season they tell us how we arent going to be able to re-sign x and then it happens. People dont like being wrong.

 

[DFC]

It's hard to argue that the Bolts havent done well on most contracts (goaltending aside), but I think it's a bit presumptuous to presume.the team will be without issues. If lack of playoff success co tonnes a guy who gave the team a sweetheart of a deal may look for a larger financial reward when time comes for the third contract

No doubt, but that's a whole other argument. I can't say TB is built for playoff success until we see some more of it. 2015 was a while ago. I will say we have a very talented collection of players who've sacrificed financially to stick with the team, in a way that players in other tax-free states haven't done.

 

[DFC]

Reports saying Rantanen is getting 9mil, what differentiates Rantanen and Marner that justifies a 2mil bigger cap hit? Marner is overpaid imo.

Their respective GMs.

 

[Legion34]

Every player has the right to seek it yes but its way more likely for a player in Toronto than a player in TB. And is way more likely to get more money than a player from TB. Leaf fans were pushing this narrative nonstop when Stamkos was a UFA. Now the spinning starts when people point it out. Its hypocrisy at its finest.

No? Not at all?

Asking for cap parity and then being fine with a systemic Advantage in this artificial system is hypocritical.