Proposal: Tor-Dal

[ACC1224]

My opinion is not false. Opinions are opinions not facts.

Struggled for 9 games as a 19 year old while most other 19 year olds are playing junior?

42 pts in 66 AHL games while being 19/early 20?

People think Kapanen isn't a good prospect because of his numbers but realistically kids his age are usually still in junior. What he's been doing is pretty impressive to me. I'd bank on him being at least a second line winger.

Why is it that non Leaf fans constantly spout that all Leaf prospects have question marks and every other Team has surefire top 6 players?

 

[Randy Randerson]

Statements like this are exactly why your opinion is false.


There's absolutely no way in hell Kapanen is a surefire Top 6 forward. The kid struggled a tonne when he was in the NHL for his brief stint and to this point he hasn't shown much in the AHL either.



Calling Honka a small offensive Dman is another example of why your opinion is false. He's 6"0 and almost 200 pounds. That's not small(Not big either, pretty average). He's also much more well rounded then you seem to think he is.



This is such a typical post from a Leafs fan. Your prospects are the ones to be surefire Top 6 players every single time despite not showing anything to suggest this is true. While the other teams prospect is filled with imaginary question marks to his game.

Kapanen's floor is thought to be very high because of speed and willingness to play a checking role. It might not be "surefire 2nd line", but his chances of being an NHL'er are very high

He also was completely blocked on what was the Calder Cup favourite Marlies team last year, did not get offensive opportunity, and still put up a top 40 all time ppg for his age as an AHL'er. This year he is getting opportunity in the wake of a bunch of Marlies graduating (Nylander, Brown, Leivo, Hyman) and is currently above a ppg pace

His ceiling is thought to be 1st line and he has a ton of talent, and is showing it now that he has opportunity to do so.

He was universally ranked higher than Honka in their draft year: http://www.mynhldraft.com/2014-nhl-draft-prospect-rankings/

I don't think there's a clear differentiator between the value of these two prospects, but both have big ceilings and are in the same near-bluchip echelon

Your post is very typical of someone who dislikes the leaf fanbase and wants to trash them at any opportunity with broad strokes

 

[Tim Vezina Thomas]

I'd bank on him being at least a second line winger .

This is a completely different statement than "he is a surefire top six winger."

Anyways, the OP makes no sense for either team.

 

[WhatWhat]

To Toronto

One of Niemi or Lehtonen.which ever you guys want to get rid of more

Honka - 9 points in 9 games ahl

To Dallas

Enroth

Leipsic - 13 points in 8 games ahl

Maybe small pluses ? I'm looking more at the base of the deal

There is no way this is a serious proposal

 

[WhatWhat]

Leafs fan saying yes! We help the stars get out from under a contract and the cost is very good D prospect. Can't imagine Stars fans will ever go for this but the reality of these type of trades is that the fan base is never happy. Look at CHI shipping out Teravainen.

They NEEDED to move cap. Thats why it cost so much. We dont NEED to move cap so there is no point in trading our best prospect just to move a goalie

 

[Mugzy97]

Why is it that non Leaf fans constantly spout that all Leaf prospects have question marks and every other Team has surefire top 6 players?

Not sure if you're making fun of me or him.

This is a completely different statement than "he is a surefire top six winger."

Anyways, the OP makes no sense for either team.

It's a very safe bet he will be a top 6 winger. If I gambled on it I would win. Not different really.

 

[SB84]

They NEEDED to move cap. Thats why it cost so much. We dont NEED to move cap so there is no point in trading our best prospect just to move a goalie

I'm not saying it makes sense for the Stars to do his trade since they do not need to, merely that IF they were to move one of the two contracts that's what it would most likely cost or what teams would be asking for.

 

[WhatWhat]

Kapanen for Honka straight across. Kapanen has star potential and is a little better as a prospect, but D hold more value so IMO it evens out.

I mean biases aside how is Kapanen a better prospect? I think they are on the same level and it would be hard to say one over the other

 

[xxreact9]

Kapanen for Honka straight across. Kapanen has star potential and is a little better as a prospect, but D hold more value so IMO it evens out.

He's a better prospect despite being drafted almost twice as low and developing slower than Honka has?

Whether its Gardiner, Kapanen, or any other given player, leaf fans and only leaf fans consistently find a way to overrate what they have while devaluing what all 29 other teams have. "Star potential" should be reserved for players who have a high likelihood of reaching that potential. Sure Kapanen has star potential, the same way any player taken within rounds 1-7 of the draft has "potential" to be a star.

He has 36 points in 56 career AHL games. And 0 points in 9 NHL games. Nothing about anything he's ever done in his entire career has suggested he has a high chance of becoming a star. There is a chance, yes, and I hope it happens for the kid. But his value as a prospect is directly proportional to the likelihood he reaches that potential, which in all fairness isn't nearly as high as TML nation believes it is.

Honka>kapanen as an asset.

 

[Randy Randerson]

I mean biases aside how is Kapanen a better prospect? I think they are on the same level and it would be hard to say one over the other

I agree with this, they're very similar

Kapanen was rated higher at the draft (mostly marginally higher, but universally so) and Honka has been better since the draft with more opportunity to shine. This year they have both been excellent in the AHL

Honka plays a more valuable position, and he's the most rare commodity as a RHD

Value probably slightly favours Honka, but these are the kinds of prospect swaps that make sense when one team has what the other needs and visa versa, not sure if that's the case here

 

[xxreact9]

Not sure if you're making fun of me or him.



It's a very safe bet he will be a top 6 winger. If I gambled on it I would win. Not different really.

Define top-6 winger. If its a guy who scores 50-60+ consistently every year, then no. Kapanen is a typical late 1st rounder and has certainly not done anything to accelerate his development beyond that status. Does every late 1st round pick automatically become a top-6 forward? No. In fact, probably around 10% of them do at best.

Not saying he isn't a good prospect. But it's NEVER a surefire safe bet to dub someone a top-6 forward before scoring a singular NHL point unless they're at minimum a top-10 pick that has exceeded expectations since the draft.

I encourage you to look at the 2nd half of the first round of each draft and see which of those players become top-6. After this, the only possible gap in the argument is that Kapanen has managed to defy the odds and defy statistics, being a far better player than his production over the last 5 years suggests.

 

[Randy Randerson]

He's a better prospect despite being drafted almost twice as low and developing slower than Honka has?

Whether its Gardiner, Kapanen, or any other given player, leaf fans and only leaf fans consistently find a way to overrate what they have while devaluing what all 29 other teams have. "Star potential" should be reserved for players who have a high likelihood of reaching that potential. Sure Kapanen has star potential, the same way any player taken within rounds 1-7 of the draft has "potential" to be a star.

He has 36 points in 56 career AHL games. And 0 points in 9 NHL games. Nothing about anything he's ever done in his entire career has suggested he has a high chance of becoming a star. There is a chance, yes, and I hope it happens for the kid. But his value as a prospect is directly proportional to the likelihood he reaches that potential, which in all fairness isn't nearly as high as TML nation believes it is.

Honka>kapanen as an asset.

lots wrong with this - 7 spots difference in their draft selections, not close to double

If you're going to use draft position as the basis for the differentiation between them, you also must acknowledge that Kapanen universally rated higher at their draft time by credible sources and that Honka was not rated by any of those sources as high as you took him: http://www.mynhldraft.com/2014-nhl-draft-prospect-rankings/

Honka has been the #1 scoring defenseman on the Texas Stars for 2 seasons, Kapanen was the 11th scoring forward on a ludicrously deep Marlies team last year, he had no opportunity to score but did demonstrate that he can be very effective in a checking role - great wheels and will grind, he also put up a good scoring rate for his age. He was also the highest scoring teenager on his Liiga team by a fair margin in his D+1, and was a year younger than the next guy. He's at 9 pts in 8 games this year now that 8 or 9 of the players who were ahead of him last year are no longer with the team (Soshnikov just got called up, he's the 9th), his ceiling is still very high

I agree that there's nothing to indicate Kapanen is above Honka, but there's no clear indicator the other way either unless you just mean that RHD>Wingers

Try to avoid using sweeping generalizations about a fanbase, especially if you're going to look only at box scores to do your evaluations before doing the exact thing that you just criticized "leaf fans and only leaf fans" for doing in devaluing other teams assets

 

[MagicalRazor]

Dallas dont bite

 

[Tim Vezina Thomas]

It's a very safe bet he will be a top 6 winger. If I gambled on it I would win. Not different really.

Its different.

Saying "he is a surefire top six winger" is a matter of fact statement. You didn't say "I think he is a surefire top six winger."

Saying "I would bet he would be a top six winger" is an opinion, an opinion that I share with you.

 

[BeaverSports]

Not even in the ballpark.

 

[klamla]

They NEEDED to move cap. Thats why it cost so much. We dont NEED to move cap so there is no point in trading our best prospect just to move a goalie

I think the bolded is all that really that needs to be said.

They are both good prospects, of similar value, although I would agree Honka as a RHD likely has a bit more at this point. I don't think you will ever find much agreement within a fan base when you suggest trading their best prospect like Honka.

If Dallas had a few guys ahead of him I think the trade would be a lot more likely and better perceived.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Whether its Gardiner, Kapanen, or any other given player, leaf fans and only leaf fans consistently find a way to overrate what they have while devaluing what all 29 other teams have.

Statements like this devalue any other point you make. Every single fan base over values their prospects. You like what you know, that's human nature.

I also find it funny how you avoid the fact Kapp was playing in the AHL as a 19 years old, one of the youngest in the league, and put up very respectable numbers despite playing a bottom 6 role.

Have you actually seen him play before? Curious

 

[LeafsNation149]

Well obviously you'd be adding to Honka then.



That's your opinion, it doesn't make it false. Kapanen is better than most of HF gives him credit for. He is a surefire second line winger with a chance of becoming a first line winger.

Honka is a really good offensive defenseman who is small. Not sure where his ceiling is but seems likely to be a 3 or 4 offensive D.

He really isn't close to a surefire 2nd liner winger. He will be a 3rd line winger that has potential of getting into the top 6, also has potential of being a career AHLer.

Honka > Kapanen, Leafs definitely add

Maybe Honka for Kapanen + 2018 2nd?

 

[Morry83]

Atrocious

 

[DALLAS90]

Leafs87 you're the reason why I ****in hate the Toronto Maple Leafs & there fans, this offer is the spitting image of a Toronto Maple Leafs fan trade offer, shut up & delete you're account you clown, Honka is gunna be an amazing 50 point D WATCH

 

[Randy Randerson]

Leafs87 you're the reason why I ****in hate the Toronto Maple Leafs & there fans, this offer is the spitting image of a Toronto Maple Leafs fan trade offer, shut up & delete you're account you clown, Honka is gunna be an amazing 50 point D WATCH

*their

 

[beepeearr]

Statements like this devalue any other point you make. Every single fan base over values their prospects. You like what you know, that's human nature.

I also find it funny how you avoid the fact Kapp was playing in the AHL as a 19 years old, one of the youngest in the league, and put up very respectable numbers despite playing a bottom 6 role.

Have you actually seen him play before? Curious

Just to be clear though, Honka, also 19 put up more points than Kapp as a second pair Dman in the AHL. Thats probably a little more impressive coming from a dman, he is also that coveted RH shot. He did spend some time as first pairing D with Lindell, especially after the Johns promotion.

 

[klamla]

Leafs87 you're the reason why I ****in hate the Toronto Maple Leafs & there fans, this offer is the spitting image of a Toronto Maple Leafs fan trade offer, shut up & delete you're account you clown, Honka is gunna be an amazing 50 point D WATCH

Atrocious

 

[dechire]

Yes Dallas should absolutely trade their #1 prospect for cap space they don't need

 

[Randy Randerson]

Just to be clear though, Honka, also 19 put up more points than Kapp as a second pair Dman in the AHL. Thats probably a little more impressive coming from a dman, he is also that coveted RH shot. He did spend some time as first pairing D with Lindell, especially after the Johns promotion.

Have a look at their teams, Honka has been given all kinds of opportunity, Kapanen hasn't. Honka has been very impressive this year, Kapanen has also been very impressive now that he's playing in a scoring role - he was 11th in forward scoring on the Marlies last year and was still over .5ppg as a 19 year old. That's not blowing the doors off, but without ice time, line mates and pp time he wasn't in a position to put up big points

RHD value is a fair point