Confirmed with Link: [TOR/COL] Nazem Kadri, Calle Rosen for Tyson Barrie (50% retain), Alex Kerfoot trade (continued)

[kb]

He also showed how the NHL has a double standard in 'discipline', but I digress..

It's on the NHL and not the player? He truly needed to be in control of himself. Regardless of the outcome, the intent was obvious, and his history of prior transgressions worked against him. That should have made him more careful.

 

[Menzinger]

The evaluation is fairly simple IMO

- if he traded Kadri to win now; then he has to go all in and there are no excuses that team in young and other blah blah blah

- if people are saying that we are young; will make mistakes i.e. we are not a true contender; then trading a proven asset for a rental (Barrie) and an inferior player in Kerfoot is absolutely stupid

But am sure Dubas cult will find ways to defend dubas to no end.

You just created a giant strawman.

Being a young team that's been through learning curves the last couple seasons suddenly doesnt mean it cant also be a contender.

The trade in question brought in a top pairing D man at a caphit of under 3 mil (which is absolutely insane value for a vet player) and still managed to bring in the longer term asset in Kerfoot.

Its not a one vs the other situation

 

[The CyNick]

The evaluation is fairly simple IMO

- if he traded Kadri to win now; then he has to go all in and there are no excuses that team in young and other blah blah blah

- if people are saying that we are young; will make mistakes i.e. we are not a true contender; then trading a proven asset for a rental (Barrie) and an inferior player in Kerfoot is absolutely stupid

But am sure Dubas cult will find ways to defend dubas to no end.

I personally find a lot of his moves to be strange.

He acquired Muzzin and Barrie at a cost of Kadri, Rosen, Gardiner, a 1st and two 2nds.

Given that we likely can't sign both long term, that seems like a hefty price for two playoff runs. Especially since one of those runs is already behind us and was wildly unsuccessful. Obviously his valuation of the roster and its potential was off.

We could have kept Gardiner long term for the cap hit of Muzzin short term. So then are the rest of those assets worth a one year Barrie rental plus Kerfoot. It seems really steep to me.

Especially when the GM was touted as this genius when it came to asset management. Personally I haven't seen it.

 

[The CyNick]

Or secret option 3.

Dubas tried to “win now” with kadri and he was horrific for the entire year. He had no place
On the team when Babcock chose to use Tavares against top lines. They kept trying to force feed kadri in a role he couldn’t do.

So now they got a slightly cheaper and 5 year younger C and a top pairing RHD.

We got the best player in the deal. We also got the Youngest player who is under contract for the longest.

We also got worse at centre and possibly won't have the "best player in the deal" past this season.

 

[The CyNick]

You just created a giant strawman.

Being a young team that's been through learning curves the last couple seasons suddenly doesnt mean it cant also be a contender.

The trade in question brought in a top pairing D man at a caphit of under 3 mil (which is absolutely insane value for a vet player) and still managed to bring in the longer term asset in Kerfoot.

Its not a one vs the other situation

So again, if we win the Cup and Barrie is a critical factor, it's a great deal.

If we're out in the first round again, and Barrie has little to no impact, say he's no better than Gardiner was, then it wasnt as good. Especially if Barrie then walks. Now it becomes just Kadri and Rosen for Kerfoot.

Just because a guy is younger (Kerfoot) doesn't mean he's the better asset.

 

[The CyNick]

Here's a direct quote:

You can't say that without ignoring Kerfoot's value. There's literally no argument to be made where we only get Barrie, unless you ignore Kerfoot.


Kadri has never been a shutdown center. He's never shut down the opposition. They tend to score and create chances just like normally when they play him. Kadri was good because he could still push some offense even when facing good opposition. But lately the majority of his impact has come on the PP.


The Tavares line has the exact same role as it did last season.


Gardiner and Kadri combine for $8.5M, Kerfoot and Barrie for $6.25M. This scenario is not mathematically possible.


If Kadri is staying here long-term, then we are extending a player into his 30's when he's already shown clear signs of regression.


In that scenario, we get #1 d-man value from Barrie while exchanging 3 years of Kadri for 4 years of Kerfoot, a good 3rd line center in his own right. If you classify that as just a "good move" then you are so far away from rationality that you might just never find your way back.

I'm not sure how saying that I'm far away from rationality moves the conversation forward.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I personally find a lot of his moves to be strange.

He acquired Muzzin and Barrie at a cost of Kadri, Rosen, Gardiner, a 1st and two 2nds.

Given that we likely can't sign both long term, that seems like a hefty price for two playoff runs. Especially since one of those runs is already behind us and was wildly unsuccessful. Obviously his valuation of the roster and its potential was off.

We could have kept Gardiner long term for the cap hit of Muzzin short term. So then are the rest of those assets worth a one year Barrie rental plus Kerfoot. It seems really steep to me.

Especially when the GM was touted as this genius when it came to asset management. Personally I haven't seen it.

Muzzin, Barrie, Kerfoot and a 6th

For

Kadri, Rosen, Grundstrom, Durzi, 1st and 3rd

 

[Legion34]

We also got worse at centre and possibly won't have the "best player in the deal" past this season.

Yep. But 25 year old Kerfoot as 3c for 4 years is better than the 30 year old neutered version of kadri we had.

He will do well on Colorado. But that’s not the role he would have here

 

[Legion34]

So again, if we win the Cup and Barrie is a critical factor, it's a great deal.

If we're out in the first round again, and Barrie has little to no impact, say he's no better than Gardiner was, then it wasnt as good. Especially if Barrie then walks. Now it becomes just Kadri and Rosen for Kerfoot.

Just because a guy is younger (Kerfoot) doesn't mean he's the better asset.

In this alternate reality are we just assuming kadri. Doesn’t do stupid things in the playoffs

 

[The CyNick]

Muzzin, Barrie, Kerfoot and a 6th

For

Kadri, Rosen, Grundstrom, Durzi, 1st and 3rd

Gardiner too. Couldn't sign him because of Muzzin. So when the decision was made to trade for Muzzin, it meant there would be no room for Gardiner. Which to me is a key part of the equation. Especially considering he signed for a very team friendly deal.

 

[The CyNick]

Yep. But 25 year old Kerfoot as 3c for 4 years is better than the 30 year old neutered version of kadri we had.

He will do well on Colorado. But that’s not the role he would have here

Impossible to say. What we know is Kadri is a superior player to Kerfoot and it doesn't seem like Kerfoot's ceiling is anywhere near Kadri's. Which is why I go back to Barrie being so critical.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Gardiner too. Couldn't sign him because of Muzzin. So when the decision was made to trade for Muzzin, it meant there would be no room for Gardiner. Which to me is a key part of the equation. Especially considering he signed for a very team friendly deal.

It isn't that simple. You could easily say if not for the horrible Zaitsev contract that had to turn into a year of Ceci, Dubas could have had Muzzin and Gardiner now. It's a bit more complicated than just plugging in one player for another

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Gardiner too. Couldn't sign him because of Muzzin. So when the decision was made to trade for Muzzin, it meant there would be no room for Gardiner. Which to me is a key part of the equation. Especially considering he signed for a very team friendly deal.

Gardiner was not part of the trades and was gone regardless of anything.

 

[The CyNick]

In this alternate reality are we just assuming kadri. Doesn’t do stupid things in the playoffs

It's a tough call. I think it was a tough call for the organization as to whether or not you give Kadri another shot to redeem himself.

I just know 30 goal centers don't grow on trees and I know we have very little organizational depth at the position.

We gave up a RHD prospect and other key assets to bring in a middle pair LHD in Muzzin for what is likely a two year rental and in doing so squeezed out another middle pair LHD who was willing to sign longer term at Muzzin's current deal.

Likewise we get a proven offensive RHD, but his number may prove to be impossible to fit in with our cap long term.

It just all feels like a waste of a lot of key assets that could have been used to either bring in someone to add to the core, or more likely to keep the flow of cheap assets coming in the door.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Impossible to say. What we know is Kadri is a superior player to Kerfoot and it doesn't seem like Kerfoot's ceiling is anywhere near Kadri's. Which is why I go back to Barrie being so critical.

Kadri was 26 before he broke 20 goals and 50 points. Kerfoot has hit 19 and 43. The gap isn't huge. Remains to be seen. When on, Kadri could be a force but he also struggled to be consistently on.

 

[ITM]

So again, if we win the Cup and Barrie is a critical factor, it's a great deal.

If we're out in the first round again, and Barrie has little to no impact, say he's no better than Gardiner was, then it wasnt as good. Especially if Barrie then walks. Now it becomes just Kadri and Rosen for Kerfoot.

Just because a guy is younger (Kerfoot) doesn't mean he's the better asset.

There's a lot of possibilities going on in the above to posit a position.

Barrie and Kerfoot for Kadri and Rosen (plus picks) was/is the deal. It will always be that model. If Kadri never regains form or is injured or is suspended for a length of time that all but renders acquiring him as something done in name only, then - modeled on your one possibility - the deal becomes a <insert devalued Kadri here> and Rosen for Kerfoot...who is outscoring both combined. The if-then possibilities are far too numerous to reasonably consider as valid positions.

I agree with some that it appears it's a win-win situation between the Avs and the Leafs. But...I think we hands down won this deal. We nabbed the number 4 and 6 point getter from Colorado for our sixth best offensive piece. One is an RHD who outscored Kadri last season and is doing so this, albeit early, season. That's value for Kadri and Rosen right there. Add Kerfoot who is also outscoring Kadri and who looks great as our 3C for less money, and the early look says we're winning this exchange in as comprehensive a fashion as could be expected.

On being a younger, better asset...You can't isolate Kerfoot's performance and abstract his age for your claim. Kerfoot might be the better player in the end going forward and his age a significant supplement to determining the degree by which we won this deal. Years of prime production is after all a very important element in determining value of one specific asset or another. And in this case, Dubas looks very savvy having acquired the (apparently) better, younger, cheaper fit for Toronto (moving forward) as the add-on to the much coveted RHD who also outscored Kadri.

We don't need to win the Cup to win the deal. We simply need Kerfoot to be the better, cheaper, younger option in a league that values better, cheaper, younger options where they can be found. And that's not in the abstract at the moment, mind you.

And if Barrie stays, Cup or no Cup, well then, Dubas et al staged a minor coup.

 

[The CyNick]

Gardiner was not part of the trades and was gone regardless of anything.

If Muzzin isn't traded for, his money could have went to Gardiner. Plus we have an extra first, and two key prospects.

Instead we likely end up with nothing except two playoff runs of Muzzin.

 

[Boutette]

If Muzzin isn't traded for, his money could have went to Gardiner. Plus we have an extra first, and two key prospects.

Instead we likely end up with nothing except two playoff runs of Muzzin.

You sound like you think that's a bad thing. I'll take that over more Gardiner game sevens.

 

[The CyNick]

Kadri was 26 before he broke 20 goals and 50 points. Kerfoot has hit 19 and 43. The gap isn't huge. Remains to be seen. When on, Kadri could be a force but he also struggled to be consistently on.

I said a while back in this thread, if Kerfoot ends up putting up kadri type numbers or can be an effective shutdown centre against top lines like Kadri was, then it's a great deal. Based on the years I've seen Kerfoot play, I don't believe that will happen.

 

[Boutette]

It's a tough call. I think it was a tough call for the organization as to whether or not you give Kadri another shot to redeem himself.

I just know 30 goal centers don't grow on trees and I know we have very little organizational depth at the position.

We gave up a RHD prospect and other key assets to bring in a middle pair LHD in Muzzin for what is likely a two year rental and in doing so squeezed out another middle pair LHD who was willing to sign longer term at Muzzin's current deal.

Likewise we get a proven offensive RHD, but his number may prove to be impossible to fit in with our cap long term.

It just all feels like a waste of a lot of key assets that could have been used to either bring in someone to add to the core, or more likely to keep the flow of cheap assets coming in the door.

I like Rosen as much as the next guy, but at 25 the term 'prospect' kind of loses its meaning. Fact is Rosen couldn't even make the Avs who are, at best a bubble team. That tells you how valuable he is.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I said a while back in this thread, if Kerfoot ends up putting up kadri type numbers or can be an effective shutdown centre against top lines like Kadri was, then it's a great deal. Based on the years I've seen Kerfoot play, I don't believe that will happen.

All 2?

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

If Muzzin isn't traded for, his money could have went to Gardiner. Plus we have an extra first, and two key prospects.

Instead we likely end up with nothing except two playoff runs of Muzzin.

We retained our key prospects.

 

[Boutette]

It isn't that simple. You could easily say if not for the horrible Zaitsev contract that had to turn into a year of Ceci, Dubas could have had Muzzin and Gardiner now. It's a bit more complicated than just plugging in one player for another

As far as I can see, Ceci and Gardiner are a wash ES (Ceci even scored more ES than Gardiner did last year)). And Gardiner wouldn't have played PP, so he wouldn't be putting up more points, and we'd have another 30+ declining player to be on the hook for going forwards. Dumb.

 

[Boutette]

I said a while back in this thread, if Kerfoot ends up putting up kadri type numbers or can be an effective shutdown centre against top lines like Kadri was, then it's a great deal. Based on the years I've seen Kerfoot play, I don't believe that will happen.

Kerfoot is doing better in Kadri's role than Kadri was last year and is doing better than Kadri this year.

 

[The CyNick]

You sound like you think that's a bad thing. I'll take that over more Gardiner game sevens.

I'd rather have Gardiner and the other assets. Anyone can have a couple bad games. I believe Gardiner brings more to the table and is better suited for the style of play we like.

As someone said when talking Kadri and Kerfoot, Gardiner currently has more points and a better giveaway takeaway ratio than Muzzin. His team is also perfect, and we've lost half our games. Small sample size no doubt, but I don't think Muzzin is clearly the better player. And most certainly the gap between the two is not a 1st and two very good prospects.