Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All Time: Round 2, Vote 1

[seventieslord]

Procedure

• You will be presented with ~15 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to @seventieslord & @rmartin65
• Use the same private message thread every week rather than starting a new PM
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top-5 players will be added to The List (unless a very large break exists at the spot between 4&5 or 5&6)
• Lists of players eligible for voting will grow as the project continues

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 80 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
• @seventieslord , @Professor What , @nabby12 , @tarheelhockey , @Black Gold Extractor , @ResilientBeast , @Dr John Carlson , @Dreakmur , @jigglysquishy , @Johnny Engine , @rmartin65 , @TheDevilMadeMe , @overpass , @Habsfan18 , @BenchBrawl , @ImporterExporter

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey (or older-than-old-time hockey) will be met with frontier justice
• We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, February 10th at midnight and continue through Sunday, February 12th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, February 13th


Vote 9 Candidates

• Clint Benedict
• Cy Denneny
• Cyclone Taylor
• Eddie Gerard
• Frank Nighbor
• Georges Vezina
• Hod Stuart
• Joe Malone
• Newsy Lalonde
• Russell Bowie
• Sprague Cleghorn
• Tommy Phillips

Click to read more...

 

[jigglysquishy]

Hey, that's my top 12.

Excited to start this project. Thanks to everyone for making lists. Thanks to @seventieslord and @rmartin65. I can only imagine the work involved in running these projects.

Anyone want to make an argument for anyone besides Nighbor at 1? Taylor and Lalonde have a pretty strong offensive peak. Vezina and Benedict have strong peaks with exceptional longevity. How about Cleghorn?

Nighbor's strong offense, class-of-its-own defense, and best playoffs of the era is a really strong pedigree.

First reaction, Nighbor is best playoff performer amongst eligible players.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Hey, that's my top 12.

Excited to start this project. Thanks to everyone for making lists. Thanks to @seventieslord and @rmartin65. I can only imagine the work involved in running these projects.

Anyone want to make an argument for anyone besides Nighbor at 1? Taylor and Lalonde have a pretty strong offensive peak. Vezina and Benedict have strong peaks with exceptional longevity. How about Cleghorn?

Nighbor's strong offense, class-of-its-own defense, and best playoffs of the era is a really strong pedigree.

First reaction, Nighbor is best playoff performer amongst eligible players.

I was shocked to find out I didn't rank Taylor the highest of all preliminary ballots.

To make a weird janky cross sport comparisons between Nighbor and Taylor

Russell vs Chamberlain
Brady vs Manning

One of the has a legacy built largely by their teams success (which there was a lot of) and the other their solo production.

To me Nighbor is the clear #1 and Taylor #2

 

[overpass]

I think Cyclone Taylor was the old-timer with the highest reputation around 1950 or so, and the one most frequently mentioned when discussing the greatest players of all time. From those who saw him out west of course, but a lot of easterners rated him highly too. IMO he has a case for #1.

 

[overpass]

Re Nighbor at #1, my perception is that a lot of the Nighbor as GOAT type quotes are from Ottawa writers. At least I would like to see a critical look at regional biases for all these opinions. I know Elmer Ferguson of Montreal considered Nighbor overrated by his Ottawa boosters, for one.

The Ottawa perspective is still very valuable because it is very much in Nighbor’s favour that the Ottawa writers and fans considered him hands down the greatest player on that great team. Otherwise we might be ranking Cy Denneny or Eddie Gerard over him. But when comparing Nighbor vs Taylor, Lalonde, etc, quotes from neutral sources should carry the most weight.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sorry if this doesn't go here, and it's really not much of anything...but I happened to be reading this article about hockey scoring in 1929 and one of the bandied about suggestions was outlawing the pokecheck and sweepcheck.

NY Times Jan 19, 1929 (Nighbor, long out of his prime...he hardly scored in the league anymore...

One of the suggested changes is the abolition of the poke-check and the sweep-check, these being legal tactics that break up at least half of the attacks before they get over the blue line. Frank Boucher of the Rangers, Frank Nighbor of the Senators, Bill Burch of the Americans, and Nels Stewart of the Maroons are adept at dislodging the disk from rival sticks and are particularly valuable players on that account. Their value to their respective teams would be lessened by the proposed change.

The only reason why I note it is because Nighbor seems to be a has-been in his final NHL days, but still got recognized with Frank Boucher - a New York Ranger in his prime; Billy Burch - a New York player who led his team in scoring; Nels Stewart in his prime...Nighbor was 36 at the time (10ish years older than most of these guys) and was in the midst of a 1 goal, 4 assist season on an irrelevant Ottawa team.

 

[Dreakmur]

Hey, that's my top 12.

Excited to start this project. Thanks to everyone for making lists. Thanks to @seventieslord and @rmartin65. I can only imagine the work involved in running these projects.

Anyone want to make an argument for anyone besides Nighbor at 1? Taylor and Lalonde have a pretty strong offensive peak. Vezina and Benedict have strong peaks with exceptional longevity. How about Cleghorn?

Nighbor's strong offense, class-of-its-own defense, and best playoffs of the era is a really strong pedigree.

First reaction, Nighbor is best playoff performer amongst eligible players.

In this group, I wouldn’t call Nighbor’s offense strong - it’s probably second weakest ahead of Phillips. He’s the best forward in this group for sure, but it’s not a wide margin for me.

Vezina was unquestionably the best goalie, right? He wasn’t really surpassed until the 1960s.

I think Cleghorn has similar dominance among defenders here. He combines peak and longevity that few have ever matched.

Does that make either better that Nighbor? I’m not sure, but this should be far from automatic.

 

[Habsfan18]

If we were to ask someone at the time who the greatest hockey player in the world is, my guess is that more often than not we’d hear “That’s easy, Cyclone Taylor!” That being said, knowing what we do now after all the research that has been done and considering that we are to take each player’s entire career into account…I’d be pretty hard pressed not to have Frank Nighbor as #1.

Either way, in my mind it’s a two-man race for #1.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Am I wrong for having Eddie Gerard as the second highest Senator? Not counting Cleghorn.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Since he might have momentum here from my most recent Taylor ATD Bio

Taylor was effectively a star and considered the best or among the best hockey players from 1907-1919 a colossal 12 year stretch

Season By Season Scoring Exploits - Using the SIHR Database
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]League[/TD]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]Team[/TD]
[TD]Position[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]G[/TD]
[TD]A[/TD]
[TD]Points[/TD]
[TD]PIM[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]IHL[/TD]
[TD]1906-1907[/TD]
[TD]Portage Lake-Houghton[/TD]
[TD]R/CP/P[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ECAHA[/TD]
[TD]1907-1908[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]Cover[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ECHA[/TD]
[TD]1908-1909[/TD]
[TD]Ottawa Hockey Club[/TD]
[TD]Cover[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NHA[/TD]
[TD]1909-1910[/TD]
[TD]Renfrew Creamery Kings[/TD]
[TD]Cover[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NHA[/TD]
[TD]1910-1911[/TD]
[TD]Renfrew Creamery Kings[/TD]
[TD]Cover[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1912-1913[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]Rover[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1913-1914[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]39[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1914-1915[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]Rover[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]21[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1915-1916[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]Rover[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]35[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1916-1917[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]Rover[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[TD]15[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1917-1918[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]18[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[TD]43[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1918-1919[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PCHA[/TD]
[TD]1919-1920[/TD]
[TD]Vancouver Millionaires[/TD]
[TD]Center[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Offensive Resume at Cover-Point
1907-08 ECAHA - He's first in D scoring. Moose Johnson is a LW for the wanderers. 1st among D, 17th overall
1908-09 ECHA - He's tied Smail in D scoring. 1st among D, 9th overall
1909-10 NHA - I can't see any confirmed D ahead of him. 2nd in D scoring, 24th overall. Bobby Rowe played RW for Renfrew and Lester was the rover, Pitre played CP
1910-11 NHA - I can't see anyone who was D this season ahead of him. 1st/2nd in D scoring and 9th overall. Pitre played Rover and CP this season

Among D
1, 1, 2, 1

League-Wide
9, 10, 17, 24

Offensive Resume at Rover in the PCHA
1912-13 - 6th league wide
1914-15 - 1st in the league over teammate in less GP
1915-16 - 1st in the league, nearest teammate is 14 points back
1916-17 - Misses over half the season, still finishes 9th in scoring. His PPG in line with his career would have him league in scoring again

League-Wide
1, 1, 6, 9* (appendicitis almost killed him, modern medicine is a god send)

Offensive Resume at Center in the PCHA
1913 14 - 1st in the league, nearest teammate is 19 points back
1917-18 - 1st in the league, beats nearest teammate by 25 points
1918-19 - 1st in the league, beats nearest teammate by 10 points
1919-20 - 11th league wide

League-Wide
1, 1, 1

Taylor was pretty clearly a star from his debut in professional hockey

18 Mar 1907 - The Globe and Mail

By common consent the finest player in the International League this season was Fred Taylor, the Listowel boy, who played with Houghton. Taylor learned his hockey on a small rink and worked his way into the international when the OHA refused to allow him to play with the Thessalon team a few seasons ag

Courtesy of IE's Pete Green Bio
15 Apr 1961, Page 13 - The Ottawa Journal at Newspapers.com

-One of two articles years later that show it was Pete Green who switched Cyclone Taylor to defensemen in Ottawa with obviously positive results.

Mr. Bate said some of the directors were discouraged when Taylor worked out as a forward in Ottawa...Then the late Petie Green, then coaching, insisted Taylor try the defense...Taylor turned on his amazing speed and wasn't long convincing the club he was at home.​

Courtesy of IE's Pete Green Bio
13 Dec 1912, 8 - The Ottawa Citizen at Newspapers.com

-In 1909 Green's coaching efforts pay off with Cyclone Taylor. Teaches Taylor the advantages to passing and defense.

In 1909 he had his greatest season at hockey and it was chiefly because Green kept coaching him on the necessity of passing the puck and blocking the man, that the Cyclone was so useful.​

​

13 Jan 1908 - The Globe and Mail

But the Wanderers are not the same team now, nor as good as they were a year ago, while Ottawa has probably the greatest bunch that ever wore the club colours. Taylor was the big man of the evening, bigger than even Tom Phillips in the matter of speed. There was some doubt as to how he would figure, but he made them all look like road rollers in comparison. Ottawa's defence was too strong for the Wanderers....

(Taylor listed at Cover Point)

​

05 Feb 1908 - The Globe and Mail

A game is played no quotes in the game summary

Taylor is listed as cover-point

Later in the Puckerings section

They are beginning to believe in Ottawa and Montreal that Fred Taylor, the ex-listowel junior is the best hockey player they ever saw in those districts

​

​

30 Dec 1909 - The Globe and Mail

The Stanley cup is the ambition of millionaire owners of the Renfrew club and as Taylor's jump has left a bad hole in the Ottawa team it would not be all all surprising to see the famous trophy come to Renfrew in the spring. Taylor is recognized by hockey experts as the greatest player in the game.

14 Oct 1912

Art Ross, Didier Pitre and "Cyclone" Taylor, three of the the greatest players in Canadian hockey seem may be seen in the linup of the coast teams this season

11 Dec 1912

Fred Taylor, the sensation of the NHA for many years, stood head and shoulders above every other player.

Secondary Sources
The Globe and Mail 11 June 1979

Lester Patrick at that time manager of the New York Rangers said Taylor was the best hockey player he'd ever seen.
He despised rough play, saying he was paid to play hockey and not sit in the penalty box, Taylor said he didn't think he averaged more than four penalties a season.
He became the highest paid player of his day and made all-star each season. A rushing defenceman Taylor played on Stanley Cup championships and twice led the playoffs in scoring.

Excerpts from the Book, The Patricks, Hockey's Royal family discuss Taylor's star power and seem to indicate that it was significantly higher than the star power of Newsy Lalonde
Here are some excerts from the book The Patricks: Hockey's Royal Family . Brothers Lester and Frank Patrick were the founders of the PCHA, as well as players and managers of their respective teams.
From early in Taylor's career:

As usual, it was Taylor who stole the show and got raves such as "...Taylor's cyclonic rushes electrified the audience..." and "...the player they so aptly call 'Cyclone' almost literally explodes with excitement. There is nothing quite like him in American sport..."

The book then documents the Patrick's efforts at luring Taylor out west - to them, getting Taylor to join the PCHA was the key to the success of the fledgling league:

Attendance picked up a little as the season wore on, but Frank was resigned to the fact that he wouldn't fill his building until he had the game's greatest gate attraction, Cyclone Taylor.

Note that Newsy Lalonde was a member of Frank Patricks' Vancouver Millionaries for The PCHA's inaugural 1911-12 season and even led the league in scoring, but Frank was still desperate to sign Cyclone.
From an East vs West All-Star game, when Taylor was still in the East:

The story of the game is more fully told in my earlier book, "Cyclone Taylor: A Hockey Legend", so suffice to say here that Taylor came out just like his nickname and all but blew the West All-Stars off the ice with his blinding speed and hell-for-leather aggressiveness. The arena was in an uproar as he broke up a rush, stole the puck, and then split the defense before slipping a silk-slick pass to Art Ross for the go-ahead goal. The fans were on their feet minutes later when Taylor repeated the maneuver, this time setting up Jack Darragh for the score. He got a two-minute ovation for that little gambit.
Frank Patrick, who had been beaten badly in the second rush, must have had mixed emotions.

That offseason, Lalonde headed back East to Montreal, but Frank Patrick got his prize as Taylor signed with Vancouver. Taylor was to be paid $1800, the most money in hockey and $500 more than Lalonde had been paid the previous season.

Frank and Lester were delighted with the exchange, as their league now had hockey's number one prestige player, and he was cheap at the price

Attendance of Vancouver games skyrocketed with Taylor on the team.
At Taylor's peak, he was a bigger star than Lalonde was at the time:

On the ice, the two (Patrick) brothers, even as every other player in the league including the redoubtable Lalonde, had to get used to the idea of playing second fiddle to Taylor, the master showman who hogged the headlines wherever he played.

According to Frank Patrick, Cyclone Taylor's style of play inspired them to allow forward passing in the neutral zone, the first time forward passing was ever allowed in any way in any professional hockey league:

Of Taylor himself, Frank has written: "Taylor was the ultimate hockey player. There'll never be another like him. He was blessed with the complete skills, quite apart from a unique excitement he generated every time he stepped onto the ice. I watched him very closely, and some of our ideas, such as creating the two blue lines to open up the center-ice area for passing, were inspired by his marvelous style.

Tommy Gorman lists his all-time team (in December of 1928):

Roy Worters, goalie
Hod Stuart and Sprague Cleghorn, defense
Frank McGee, center
Tom Phillips and Scotty Davidson, wings
Cyclone Fred Taylor, utility, greatest player ever.

Gorman appends a short list of honorable mentions: Newsey Lalonde, Lionel Conacher, Billy Burch and Les Patrick.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Ian Fyffe's Point System

Player	Hall of Fame by Point Allocation (Fyffe Points)
Russell Bowie	136.7
Cyclone Taylor	116.5
Newsy Lalonde	113.4
Frank Nighbor	109.3
Clint Benedict	108.6
Eddie Gerard	103.1
Georges Vezina	102.7
Joe Malone	101.7
Cy Denneny	98.0
Sprague Cleghorn	97.0
Tommy Phillips	91.2
Hod Stuart	82.0

His system isn't perfect, and certainly weighs offense heavily. An argument could be made that, assuming era parity, Bowie was as strong an offensive player as Taylor and Lalonde. But doing it in a weaker era, and for a shorter time period, makes him clearly behind. Fyffe point out that Bowie's 1901 season (24 goals, next highest is 10) is the most statistically dominant season in the pre-merger era.

Ultimate Hockey awards
Vezina
Benedict x8
Vezina x6

Norris
Cleghorn x5
Stuart x3
Taylor x3

Hart
Lalonde x6
Bowie x4
Taylor x3
Malone x3
Nighbor x3
Phillips x1

 

[ResilientBeast]

Ultimate Hockey awards
Vezina
Benedict x8
Vezina x6

Norris
Cleghorn x5
Stuart x3
Taylor x3

Hart
Lalonde x6
Bowie x4
Taylor x3
Malone x3
Nighbor x3
Phillips x1

As I said previously I do disagree with these being brought up at all especially without listing the years they would've earned them

 

[Professor What]

I'd be interested in hearing the thoughts of anyone who might not have had Nighbor #1. He seems like a slam dunk to me, and I'm interested in hearing alternatives. If nothing else It might impact my rankings after #1, though right now I have the same 1-2 I'm seeing mentioned by others.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I'd be interested in hearing the thoughts of anyone who might not have had Nighbor #1. He seems like a slam dunk to me, and I'm interested in hearing alternatives. If nothing else It might impact my rankings after #1, though right now I have the same 1-2 I'm seeing mentioned by others.

I'm not one of them but to play for the other team for a minute.

Taylor didn't debut in a cup contending league until he was already 27 while Nighbor is 9 years younger. After the IHL he joins a dominant Ottawa team with Tommy Phillips, Alf Smith, Marty Walsh & Percy LesSueur. They win the cup the following season, with a slightly weaker team as Phillips moves on.

Then he goes to the expensive Renfrew Millionaires and they fail catastrophically despite having Lalonde, both Patricks and Taylor. All the expensive players leave, Taylor plays with the Cleghorns in 1911 but they're both young and haven't rounded into form yet.

Taylor now 31 (I think) moves to the PCHA as the Patrick's crown jewel replacing Lalonde as the star of the league.
He has his dominant stretch of scoring titles after the age of 30 in the PCHA playing with

Pitre (for a season), Nighbor (for 2 seasons), Gordon Roberts, Art Duncan, Lloyd Cook, Si Griffis, Frank Patrick, Hugh Lehman, Smokey Harris & Barney Stanley.

He wins his last cup on the best team Vancouver had with Nighbor on the wing.

I have a hard time looking at that list and considering the talent in Vancouver as comparable to the talent Nighbor had at his peak.

Ottawa wins their cup in 1921 with the following roster
- Frank Nighbor
- Cy Denneny
- Punch Broadbent
- Jack Darragh
- Eddie Gerard
- Sprague Cleghorn
- George Boucher
- Clint Benedict

Then later on they win again in 1923 against an overmatched Eskimos team subtracting Cleghorn but adding King Clancy.

Then they win one last time for Nighbor in 1927 with some talent drain, but an overall still talented squad.

I actually might talking myself into switching the order.

 

[rmartin65]

I hope to have time to post some thoughts (and go in-depth a bit about Bowie, since I have quite a bit on his career at this point) this evening or tomorrow evening, but I’ll take a moment here to ask a couple questions-

1) like seemingly everyone else, I’m struggling to see how anyone either than Taylor could rival Nighbor for that top spot. @ResilientBeast posted that great bio, and it clearly shows his star power and excellence of play for a long period of time, especially for the era. Is it enough to take the top spot? How do we weigh in Taylor’s ability at cover point?

2) How are you all accounting for other high level teammates? A lot of guys on this list were teammates with other guys in this group, and in an era where players played the whole game, having a star teammate or two goes a long way in creating team success. What does that look like vs a guy like Bowie, who didn’t really get that same level of support (and, consequently, doesn’t have much in the way of team success).

 

[ResilientBeast]

2) How are you all accounting for other high level teammates? A lot of guys on this list were teammates with other guys in this group, and in an era where players played the whole game, having a star teammate or two goes a long way in creating team success. What does that look like vs a guy like Bowie, who didn’t really get that same level of support (and, consequently, doesn’t have much in the way of team success).

Of the big three centers, I will die on the hill that Nighbor had by far the most team support. It's also nice symmetry that all 3 are tied to a goaltender who will come up for discussion (hopefully soon)

Taylor - Lehman
Lalonde - Vezina
Nighbor - Benedict

 

[ResilientBeast]

Lalonde in Montreal had pretty bad support even when they won 1916 and it didn't improve until after the Bulldogs collapsed and they acquired Joe Hall and Joe Malone which really buoyed Montreal.

 

[Professor What]

2) How are you all accounting for other high level teammates? A lot of guys on this list were teammates with other guys in this group, and in an era where players played the whole game, having a star teammate or two goes a long way in creating team success. What does that look like vs a guy like Bowie, who didn’t really get that same level of support (and, consequently, doesn’t have much in the way of team success).

If I'm being honest, I gut instinct it. I don't really know any other way to do it, and, again, if I'm being honest, I had to do a lot of gut instinct with this project's initial rankings as well.

As for Bowie, I had him 9th originally, but I could be talked up. I like him a lot, and I can easily accept that I might have underrated him, because yeah, he wasn't on a stacked Senators team.

I also see that Lalonde was mentioned since I started typing this, and I had him third. Did I subconsciously apply different standards to him and Bowie to have six spots between them?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Vote 9 Candidates

• Clint Benedict
• Cy Denneny
• Cyclone Taylor
• Eddie Gerard
• Frank Nighbor
• Georges Vezina
• Hod Stuart
• Joe Malone
• Newsy Lalonde
• Russell Bowie
• Sprague Cleghorn
• Tommy Phillips

The bolded were teammates with Nighbor for 3+ seasons including two cup wins. I have a hard time upon more reflection thinking that Nighbor can be the best player pre-consolidation with 4 other teammates in the top 12 on the basis of a stellar team accomplishment based resume

 

[BenchBrawl]

Lalonde is 2-1 against Nighbor in the playoffs.

He brutalized him in 1917 in Game 1, was suspended for Game 2 but Nighbor still felt the effects of what happened in Game 1 (likely a concussion, as he was laid unconscious). Ottawa won Game 2 but Montreal won the series.

1-0 Lalonde.

In 1919, Nighbor missed the first three games of the series due to his sister's death. He returned in grand form for Game 4 and Ottawa won the game. Then Montreal won Game 5 and the series, with Lalonde outplaying Nighbor.

2-1 Lalonde.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The bolded were teammates with Nighbor for 3+ seasons including two cup wins. I have a hard time upon more reflection thinking that Nighbor can be the best player pre-consolidation with 4 other teammates in the top 12 on the basis of a stellar team accomplishment based resume

Nighbor was at the center of the Ottawa system. No Nighbor, no Ottawa system. At least according to Pete Green.

The Ottawa Journal Apr 2, 1923

WINNER BECAUSE NIGHBOR THERE: COACH PETE GREEN DISCUSSES FAMOUS DEFENSIVE TACTICS OF WORLD'S CHAMPIONS.

TELLS WHY OTHER TEAMS DON'T DUPLICATE SUCCESS.

Playing the odd man back on the defence, invariably it has been Frank Nighbor, the Pembroke star, has won for the Ottawa team the championship of the world. Other clubs have endeavored to copy the Ottawa system, but according to Pete Green, coach of the team for four years, the imitators failed simply because they could not bring out a man who was as skillful defensively as Nighbor.

"BARRING THE DOOR"

Mr. Green stated this morning that a defensive game like Ottawa has been playing would be an impossibility without Nighbor. "He is the cog of the Ottawa machine" he said, "and no matter who leaves the defence, Frank can be counted upon to fill in the breach and check the attacks. They simply can't get through the defence when Nighbor is there. Other teams have tried to copy our "Kitty-bar-the-door-system", but none of them could trot out a player as good as the Pembroke boy. Therefore they failed."

 

[ResilientBeast]

Nighbor was at the center of the Ottawa system. No Nighbor, no Ottawa system. At least according to Pete Green.

The Ottawa Journal Apr 2, 1923

WINNER BECAUSE NIGHBOR THERE: COACH PETE GREEN DISCUSSES FAMOUS DEFENSIVE TACTICS OF WORLD'S CHAMPIONS.

TELLS WHY OTHER TEAMS DON'T DUPLICATE SUCCESS.

Playing the odd man back on the defence, invariably it has been Frank Nighbor, the Pembroke star, has won for the Ottawa team the championship of the world. Other clubs have endeavored to copy the Ottawa system, but according to Pete Green, coach of the team for four years, the imitators failed simply because they could not bring out a man who was as skillful defensively as Nighbor.

"BARRING THE DOOR"

Mr. Green stated this morning that a defensive game like Ottawa has been playing would be an impossibility without Nighbor. "He is the cog of the Ottawa machine" he said, "and no matter who leaves the defence, Frank can be counted upon to fill in the breach and check the attacks. They simply can't get through the defence when Nighbor is there. Other teams have tried to copy our "Kitty-bar-the-door-system", but none of them could trot out a player as good as the Pembroke boy. Therefore they failed."

I understand that, but if Nighbor is the root of Ottawa's success we need to take a long hard look at the other members of those teams currently up for consideration. Of the 5 centers/rovers up (Taylor, Lalonde, Malone, Bowie & Nighbor), Nighbor also has by far the worst offensive output but won the most. Nighbor has the most regular teammates up for voting right now by far of this group.

If Nighbor is #1 because of his tremendous value to the Ottawa franchise and their resultant success what do we make of Gerard, Benedict, Cleghorn and Denneny and their impacts on Ottawa's success?

 

[jigglysquishy]

Combined Vs2 in NHA/NHL/PCHA 1910-1926.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]Vs2- 3 Years[/TD]
[TD]Vs2 - 5 Years[/TD]
[TD]Vs2 - 7 Years[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cyclone Taylor[/TD]
[TD]128.1[/TD]
[TD]119.2[/TD]
[TD]103.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Newsy Lalonde[/TD]
[TD]110.6[/TD]
[TD]106.7[/TD]
[TD]99.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Joe Malone[/TD]
[TD]106.3[/TD]
[TD]103.8[/TD]
[TD]98.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cy Denneny[/TD]
[TD]101.4[/TD]
[TD]100.9[/TD]
[TD]99.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Frank Nighbor[/TD]
[TD]97.4[/TD]
[TD]90.7[/TD]
[TD]82.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

For reference, Bowie's numbers come to
179.7, 158.4, 136.5

Phillips is hard to generate

I don't think Vs2 provides much benefit pre-1910, but can be a reasonable look at offensive separation across the leagues. I think it confirms my initial suspicions: Taylor is the offensive king of post-1910 hockey, with Lalonde not far behind. Denneny stands out really strongly too.

Nighbor finishes fifth amongst eligible forwards. Obviously, things like defense and playoffs aren't included.

I have no idea on how to make a direct comparison between Bowie/Lalonde/Denneny

 

[BenchBrawl]

I understand that, but if Nighbor is the root of Ottawa's success we need to take a long hard look at the other members of those teams currently up for consideration. Of the 5 centers/rovers up (Taylor, Lalonde, Malone, Bowie & Nighbor), Nighbor also has by far the worst offensive output but won the most. Nighbor has the most regular teammates up for voting right now by far of this group.

If Nighbor is #1 because of his tremendous value to the Ottawa franchise and their resultant success what do we make of Gerard, Benedict, Cleghorn and Denneny and their impacts on Ottawa's success?

Great teams tend to have several great players.

I see no paradox. Nighbor was crucial to the system, but the other guys pushed the team to dynastic heights.

 

[rmartin65]

Great teams tend to have several great players.

I see no paradox. Nighbor was crucial to the system, but the other guys pushed the team to dynastic heights.

But then isn’t it unfair to criticize a guy like Bowie (or Lalonde) for lack of team success in comparison to those guys, as they didn’t have the helpers to push the team to dynastic heights?