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Top 40 Canucks of All-Time Preliminary Discussion Thread - Lists Now Being Accepted

Hardyvan123 said:
Yet Cassels is 47th in points despite his short time here that has to put him in the mix for around 60th right?

Or does a guy like a Gino/Cooke type of player get the nod by playing more games as role players?
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I tend to prefer a Cooke type myself. Not sure on Gino though.

Have you done a tentative top 60 list yet, Hardy? I feel like when I did it a lot of these guys seemed they'd have a decent chance, but I started running out of room pretty quick.
 
Hardyvan123 said:
Yet Cassels is 47th in points despite his short time here that has to put him in the mix for around 60th right?

Or does a guy like a Gino/Cooke type of player get the nod by playing more games as role players?
Click to expand...

not sure yet what my criteria will end up being. but i'll be honest: i remember cooke and while there aren't a lot of fond memories, there are a few. cassels i have no recollection of watching, and i saw those games. so the gut seems to be pulling for meaningful years of service. not sure what the brain will say yet.
 
Bump.

I had a really hard time filling in the last 20 spots. I ended up filling up the spots with some guys that I didn't think would have a shot (Walton, Ehrhoff, Aucoin), and left out some that I thought would rank (O'Flaherty, Guevremont).

Does anyone have inside their top 60, any modern forwards (post-WCE era) other than D+H, Kesler and Burrows? I'm suprised such a good era for us only sees 4 forwards, especially considering I have 7 forwards from the 70's.

What to do with less scoring-oriented players, or players who brought more than scoring. Curt Fraser, Tiger Williams (who was a good scorer for that on year at least), Gino, Sandlak, Cooke, Malhotra, who else would fit this group? Who where the defensive specialists of eras past?
 
Art of Sedinery said:
What to do with less scoring-oriented players, or players who brought more than scoring. Curt Fraser, Tiger Williams (who was a good scorer for that on year at least), Gino, Sandlak, Cooke, Malhotra, who else would fit this group? Who where the defensive specialists of eras past?
Click to expand...
Don Lever would likely fit that description.
 
I found this interesting, you may not, but here is the list of the all-time franchise leader in points after each year.

1971 - Andre Boudrias - 66
1972 - Andre Boudrias - 127
1973 - Andre Boudrias - 197
1974 - Andre Boudrias - 272
1975 - Andre Boudrias - 350
1976 - Andre Boudrias - 388
1977 - Andre Boudrias - 388 (Lever 276)
1978 - Andre Boudrias - 388 (Lever 325)
1979 - Andre Boudrias - 388 (Lever 369)
1980 - Don Lever - 407
1981 - Don Lever - 407 (Gradin 195, Smyl 176)
1982 - Don Lever - 407 (Gradin 281, Smyl 257)
1983 - Don Lever - 407 (Gradin 367, Smyl 345)
1984 - Thomas Gradin - 445 (Smyl 412)
1985 - Thomas Gradin - 509 (Smyl 476)
1986 - Thomas Gradin - 550 (Smyl 538)
1987 - Stan Smyl - 581
1988 - Stan Smyl - 618
1989 - Stan Smyl - 643
1990 - Stan Smyl - 659
1991 - Stan Smyl - 673
1992 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 255)
1993 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 327)
1994 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 388)
1995 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 428)
1996 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 508)
1997 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 548)
1998 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 569)
1999 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 569)
2000 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 569)
2001 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 569)
2002 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 603, Naslund 374)
2003 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 644, Naslund 478)
2004 - Trevor Linden - 680 (Naslund 562)
2005 - Trevor Linden - 680 (Naslund 562)
2006 - Trevor Linden - 696 (Naslund 641)
2007 - Trevor Linden - 721 (Naslund 701)
2008 - Markus Naslund - 756 (H. Sedin 378)
2009 - Markus Naslund - 756 (H. Sedin 460)
2010 - Markus Naslund - 756 (H. Sedin 572)
2011 - Markus Naslund - 756 (H. Sedin 666)
2012 - Markus Naslund - 756 (H. Sedin 747)
2013 - Henrik Sedin - 792
2014 - Henrik Sedin - 842
2014/15 - Henrik Sedin - 871
 
Art of Sedinery said:
Bump.

I had a really hard time filling in the last 20 spots. I ended up filling up the spots with some guys that I didn't think would have a shot (Walton, Ehrhoff, Aucoin), and left out some that I thought would rank (O'Flaherty, Guevremont).

Does anyone have inside their top 60, any modern forwards (post-WCE era) other than D+H, Kesler and Burrows? I'm suprised such a good era for us only sees 4 forwards, especially considering I have 7 forwards from the 70's.

What to do with less scoring-oriented players, or players who brought more than scoring. Curt Fraser, Tiger Williams (who was a good scorer for that on year at least), Gino, Sandlak, Cooke, Malhotra, who else would fit this group? Who where the defensive specialists of eras past?
Click to expand...

jannik hansen for paragraphs 2 and 3.


i could go any way on adams vs. courtnall vs. ronning. and funnily enough, that was an argument we used to have on the playground all the time back in the early 90s.


also, sandlak didn't bring anything. ever. the luca sbisa of late 80s/early 90s forwards, hehe.
 
vadim sharifijanov said:
jannik hansen for paragraphs 2 and 3.


i could go any way on adams vs. courtnall vs. ronning. and funnily enough, that was an argument we used to have on the playground all the time back in the early 90s.


also, sandlak didn't bring anything. ever. the luca sbisa of late 80s/early 90s forwards, hehe.
Click to expand...

Hansen is a tough one. A player who has been here for a while, with varying levels of success, but was regularly a bottom 6 forward (except when the Canucks were depleted or desperate).
 
Art of Sedinery said:
I found this interesting, you may not, but here is the list of the all-time franchise leader in points after each year.

1971 - Andre Boudrias - 66
1972 - Andre Boudrias - 127
1973 - Andre Boudrias - 197
1974 - Andre Boudrias - 272
1975 - Andre Boudrias - 350
1976 - Andre Boudrias - 388
1977 - Andre Boudrias - 388 (Lever 276)
1978 - Andre Boudrias - 388 (Lever 325)
1979 - Andre Boudrias - 388 (Lever 369)
1980 - Don Lever - 407
1981 - Don Lever - 407 (Gradin 195, Smyl 176)
1982 - Don Lever - 407 (Gradin 281, Smyl 257)
1983 - Don Lever - 407 (Gradin 367, Smyl 345)
1984 - Thomas Gradin - 445 (Smyl 412)
1985 - Thomas Gradin - 509 (Smyl 476)
1986 - Thomas Gradin - 550 (Smyl 538)
1987 - Stan Smyl - 581
1988 - Stan Smyl - 618
1989 - Stan Smyl - 643
1990 - Stan Smyl - 659
1991 - Stan Smyl - 673
1992 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 255)
1993 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 327)
1994 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 388)
1995 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 428)
1996 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 508)
1997 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 548)
1998 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 569)
1999 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 569)
2000 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 569)
2001 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 569)
2002 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 603, Naslund 374)
2003 - Stan Smyl - 673 (Linden 644, Naslund 478)
2004 - Trevor Linden - 680 (Naslund 562)
2005 - Trevor Linden - 680 (Naslund 562)
2006 - Trevor Linden - 696 (Naslund 641)
2007 - Trevor Linden - 721 (Naslund 701)
2008 - Markus Naslund - 756 (H. Sedin 378)
2009 - Markus Naslund - 756 (H. Sedin 460)
2010 - Markus Naslund - 756 (H. Sedin 572)
2011 - Markus Naslund - 756 (H. Sedin 666)
2012 - Markus Naslund - 756 (H. Sedin 747)
2013 - Henrik Sedin - 792
2014 - Henrik Sedin - 842
2014/15 - Henrik Sedin - 871
Click to expand...

It is important, even if all of them will make the list it should give them some bonus in the ranking.
 
Art of Sedinery said:
Bump.

I had a really hard time filling in the last 20 spots. I ended up filling up the spots with some guys that I didn't think would have a shot (Walton, Ehrhoff, Aucoin), and left out some that I thought would rank (O'Flaherty, Guevremont).

Does anyone have inside their top 60, any modern forwards (post-WCE era) other than D+H, Kesler and Burrows? I'm suprised such a good era for us only sees 4 forwards, especially considering I have 7 forwards from the 70's.
Click to expand...

I would definitely have a guy like Mikael Samuelsson ahead of Mike Walton.

Best seasons were similar (59 adjusted points to 57) but Samuelsson had two quality seasons as opposed to one, and had a playoffs where he was arguably our best player, in addition to being a key part of the 2010-11 team that was the best in franchise history.
 
Art of Sedinery said:
Bump.

I had a really hard time filling in the last 20 spots. I ended up filling up the spots with some guys that I didn't think would have a shot (Walton, Ehrhoff, Aucoin), and left out some that I thought would rank (O'Flaherty, Guevremont).

Does anyone have inside their top 60, any modern forwards (post-WCE era) other than D+H, Kesler and Burrows? I'm suprised such a good era for us only sees 4 forwards, especially considering I have 7 forwards from the 70's.

What to do with less scoring-oriented players, or players who brought more than scoring. Curt Fraser, Tiger Williams (who was a good scorer for that on year at least), Gino, Sandlak, Cooke, Malhotra, who else would fit this group? Who where the defensive specialists of eras past?
Click to expand...

Haven't worked on this much, but Malhtora was a core, essential piece to the Canucks for two seasons. Best defensive player in the game, and probably the prime reason (other than Henrik) that Daniel won the Art Ross in 2011 as the Malhotra line took the absolute brunt of the defensive matchups. Out of forwards, I'd say he was more important to the franchise than someone like Hansen who has been a good foot soldier, but really doesn't bring anything that extraordinary as far as a peak.

I suppose Tiger Williams is a similar case where he really stands out for his one skill (PIMs) and is much more notable in hockey history than say, Andrew Cassels.
 
vancityluongo said:
Haven't worked on this much, but Malhtora was a core, essential piece to the Canucks for two seasons. Best defensive player in the game, and probably the prime reason (other than Henrik) that Daniel won the Art Ross in 2011 as the Malhotra line took the absolute brunt of the defensive matchups. Out of forwards, I'd say he was more important to the franchise than someone like Hansen who has been a good foot soldier, but really doesn't bring anything that extraordinary as far as a peak.

I suppose Tiger Williams is a similar case where he really stands out for his one skill (PIMs) and is much more notable in hockey history than say, Andrew Cassels.
Click to expand...

Malhotra was a key player for 1 season (10-11). He was a shadow of his former self in 11-12 after the injury, although still outstanding on faceoffs.

I can't see a way that he'll make my top-60. Maybe he'd sneak into a top-100 list.
 
MS said:
Malhotra was a key player for 1 season (10-11). He was a shadow of his former self in 11-12 after the injury, although still outstanding on faceoffs.

I can't see a way that he'll make my top-60. Maybe he'd sneak into a top-100 list.
Click to expand...

hard to find a place for malhotra, as you say, due to the brevity of his elite contribution (~9/10 of a regular season) even though that contribution created so many openings for other players to hit new and unprecedented heights. same goes for samuelsson for me, though: a streaky guy who was good when he was good, invisible when he was bad, and caught lightning in a bottle for about two months after the olympics.

if either of those guys had contributed anything to the '11 cup run, i'd be far more inclined to consider them (then at least they'd approach jeff brown territory).
 
Like I said, I haven't actually made a list, so I don't know if Malhotra would make my top-60 either, but he was crucial to that 2011 team which was the best in franchise history. There's the obviously hypothetical exercise that if we have a healthy Malhotra, things go slightly differently and we could win the cup...you don't do that same exercise if Hansen or Raymond was injured.

Even in his second season, as a shadow of what he was pre-injury, he was still an elite defensive player. Big part of a President's Trophy winning team.
 
vadim sharifijanov said:
jannik hansen for paragraphs 2 and 3.


i could go any way on adams vs. courtnall vs. ronning. and funnily enough, that was an argument we used to have on the playground all the time back in the early 90s.


also, sandlak didn't bring anything. ever. the luca sbisa of late 80s/early 90s forwards, hehe.
Click to expand...

Art of Sedinery said:
Hansen is a tough one. A player who has been here for a while, with varying levels of success, but was regularly a bottom 6 forward (except when the Canucks were depleted or desperate).
Click to expand...

If some of you are considering hanson for the best 40, it is a sad statement about the team's history. While he has been around the organization 10 years. The guy is a career third liner and I cojuld name 50 players with ease that played better in a canuck jersey then him. Nice guy, but not special enough to get named to the top 40
 
vadim sharifijanov said:
hard to find a place for malhotra, as you say, due to the brevity of his elite contribution (~9/10 of a regular season) even though that contribution created so many openings for other players to hit new and unprecedented heights. same goes for samuelsson for me, though: a streaky guy who was good when he was good, invisible when he was bad, and caught lightning in a bottle for about two months after the olympics.

if either of those guys had contributed anything to the '11 cup run, i'd be far more inclined to consider them (then at least they'd approach jeff brown territory).
Click to expand...

vancityluongo said:
Like I said, I haven't actually made a list, so I don't know if Malhotra would make my top-60 either, but he was crucial to that 2011 team which was the best in franchise history. There's the obviously hypothetical exercise that if we have a healthy Malhotra, things go slightly differently and we could win the cup...you don't do that same exercise if Hansen or Raymond was injured.

Even in his second season, as a shadow of what he was pre-injury, he was still an elite defensive player. Big part of a President's Trophy winning team.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but 48 total points in 3 partial seasons does not get you anywhere close to the top 60 canucks all-time, even if he was the best 3rd line centre the canucks ever had.
 
archangel archangel said:
If some of you are considering hanson for the best 40, it is a sad statement about the team's history. While he has been around the organization 10 years. The guy is a career third liner and I cojuld name 50 players with ease that played better in a canuck jersey then him. Nice guy, but not special enough to get named to the top 40
Click to expand...

i think we're both saying hansen make our prelim lists of 60. probably in the low 50s for me actually.
 
I put together a list of all Canuck players who've scored over 40 adjusted points in a season, ranked in descending order, for those interested.
 
vadim sharifijanov said:
i think we're both saying hansen make our prelim lists of 60. probably in the low 50s for me actually.
Click to expand...

Hansen is on the bubble for me, probably on the outside looking in as a short time top line player is probably more important than a role player with some longevity, all things being equal.

Is there any indication on how many people are going to participate?
 
^ this refers back to our pederson conversation too: i think we have a philosophical difference here. i prefer a steady role player who contributed important but underheralded dirty work to winning teams than a first line player scoring above average points on mediocre-to-terrible teams.

but then i also would happily have claude lemieux, carbonneau, and mccrimmon in the hall of fame over gartner all day, every day. some people would call that nuts. some people call me maurice.
 
We've had some good discussion here guys. Do we think we are ready to start submitting our top 60 lists?

I would target to start accepting them January 10th, with the deadline being January 25th. That leaves a good 2 weeks for people to see this and get their lists in. Thoughts?
 
^ i'm game.

do you have a sense of how many are participating yet, AoS?

my hope is that as more people start putting together early drafts of their top 60s lists (assuming that there are more people), a more concrete discussion of fringe and/or forgotten guys will ensue.

thanks again for administering!
 
vadim sharifijanov said:
^ this refers back to our pederson conversation too: i think we have a philosophical difference here. i prefer a steady role player who contributed important but underheralded dirty work to winning teams than a first line player scoring above average points on mediocre-to-terrible teams.

but then i also would happily have claude lemieux, carbonneau, and mccrimmon in the hall of fame over gartner all day, every day. some people would call that nuts. some people call me maurice.
Click to expand...

We are going to agree to disagree on the first point then mainly because the teams Hansen played on were going to be whatever they were going to be with or without him.

For most of the Canucks time in the NHL they weren't very good teams but to penalize individual players for that in this project is wrong IMO.

It is the best 60 Canucks of all time right?

As to your 2nd point sure there might be an argument for all 3 of those guys but then again a lot of it will come down to team accomplishments, which is misguided IMO.

Gartner is a favorite whipping boy in the History section but he actually has 5 top 10 goal scoring finishes and was consistently good to very good for a very long time.

surely staying power has some merits right?
 
vadim sharifijanov said:
^ i'm game.

do you have a sense of how many are participating yet, AoS?

my hope is that as more people start putting together early drafts of their top 60s lists (assuming that there are more people), a more concrete discussion of fringe and/or forgotten guys will ensue.

thanks again for administering!
Click to expand...

No idea to be honest. I would hope at least everyone who has participated in this thread at least. Though if it was only like 5 or 6 of us probably wouldn't be worth it.
 
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