Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 1

[tarheelhockey]

Guys we might want to discuss early in the thread so they don’t get lost in the shuffle:

• Alexander Maltsev
• Toe Blake
• Valeri Vasiliev
• Vladimir Martinec

 

[BenchBrawl]

Also noteworthy that Gerard is the most multi-positional player on the list. That positional flexibility is part of what he passed on to Clancy and Boucher, who in turn passed it to their own protégés.

Positional flexibility was very common in their era though, so I'm unsure if he passed this feature or whether it was just "in the air".

 

[BenchBrawl]

Erik Karlsson's career arc is inscrutable. He starts off as an overrated offensive defenseman, to a monster two-way performer, to an offensive defenseman with injuries.

I see a lot of smokescreen to his resume, around a great peak that didn't last very long.

In my eyes, his monster run from 2017 has the same value as a (strong) Smythe win.

A very confusing legacy.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Erik Karlsson's career arc is inscrutable. He starts off as an overrated offensive defenseman, to a monster two-way performer, to an offensive defenseman with injuries.

I see a lot of smokescreen to his resume, around a great peak that didn't last very long.

In my eyes, his monster run from 2017 has the same value as a (strong) Smythe win.

A very confusing legacy.

Back to the Future With EK65

Jack has the tendency to write in riddles and not really get to the point, but I think my core takeaway (adding my own observations and preconceptions) here is that masterful skaters like Karlsson can make a big impact at both ends of the ice, but it can take a bit to put together the defensive utility of that skillset, and that it can all turn to dust in a minute.

I cam think of a few guys I watched this transformation happen to, albeit with a less dramatic peak than Karlsson (which few have, period).

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

Erik Karlsson's career arc is inscrutable. He starts off as an overrated offensive defenseman, to a monster two-way performer, to an offensive defenseman with injuries.

I see a lot of smokescreen to his resume, around a great peak that didn't last very long.

In my eyes, his monster run from 2017 has the same value as a (strong) Smythe win.

A very confusing legacy.

Without looking too deeply into it, my gut feeling is that he's basically modern-day Paul Coffey minus the longevity and durability.

 

[seventieslord]

Without looking too deeply into it, my gut feeling is that he's basically modern-day Paul Coffey minus the longevity and durability.

Modern day Leetch!

 

[BenchBrawl]

Back to the Future With EK65

Jack has the tendency to write in riddles and not really get to the point, but I think my core takeaway (adding my own observations and preconceptions) here is that masterful skaters like Karlsson can make a big impact at both ends of the ice, but it can take a bit to put together the defensive utility of that skillset, and that it can all turn to dust in a minute.

I cam think of a few guys I watched this transformation happen to, albeit with a less dramatic peak than Karlsson (which few have, period).

The best comparables are probably Brian Leetch and Harry Cameron, two other great skaters known primarily as offensive defensemen (and both with great playoff runs). But both maintained a good two-way game for much longer than Karlsson, didn't they?

I'm honestly not sure why Erik Karlsson should be ranked above Harry Cameron, but then I had Harry Cameron very high on my list.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Modern day Leetch!

You beat me to it as I was writing my post above.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I never received a single PM reminder so i am not an eligible voter. (My bad for not sniffing the thread regularly over the holidays.)

If you’d like to submit a list and join, it’s not too late!

 

[VanIslander]

Shall do in the morn!

 

[Professor What]

I don't think it's hard at all to make a case for Karlsson at this point, and I ranked him quite high on my list. He could very easily be a four-time Norris winner. To me, that's enough to put him in this neighborhood. He's going to fall short of someone like Coffey because he falls well short of the longevity, but that peak is so high that he's quite worthy here,

By the way, of the guys that @tarheelhockey mentioned a few posts ago, I want to say that there's no way Toe Blake doesn't get a vote from me here. He's very likely to be my #1 vote.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The case against Karlsson is pretty easy: Shouldn't there be at least something of a gap between Brian Leetch himself and someone who is basically Brian Leetch with significantly less longevity?

The case for Karlsson I guess would be that he had a period of excellence that should be considered maybe a little higher than Leetch's when you consider the forwards with whom each of them played.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't think it's hard at all to make a case for Karlsson at this point, and I ranked him quite high on my list. He could very easily be a four-time Norris winner. To me, that's enough to put him in this neighborhood. He's going to fall short of someone like Coffey because he falls well short of the longevity, but that peak is so high that he's quite worthy here,

By the way, of the guys that @tarheelhockey mentioned a few posts ago, I want to say that there's no way Toe Blake doesn't get a vote from me here. He's very likely to be my #1 vote.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but what's the reasoning?

 

[Professor What]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but what's the reasoning?

Edit: Too tired. Didn't pay enough attention to see what was highlighted. I'll try it again tomorrow.

 

[ted2019]

I'm seeing Doughty & Karlsson being my bottom 2 at this point. Karlsson has had a very, very high and short peak, while the rest of the time has been at times, abysmal play ( especially in his own zone).

 

[MXD]

While Karlsson absolutely didn't deserve his first Norris, I wouldn't quite describe his overall play as abysmal at that point.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

While Karlsson absolutely didn't deserve his first Norris, I wouldn't quite describe his overall play as abysmal at that point.

Karlsson is pretty consistent offensively, but his defensive play is like a roller coaster. No consistency. And its been that way his whole career. Is he really that much better than a Brett Burns?

 

[bobholly39]

Karlsson is pretty consistent offensively, but his defensive play is like a roller coaster. No consistency. And its been that way his whole career. Is he really that much better than a Brett Burns?

Yes - he's better than Burns. Speaking of which - Burns is a name I never even considered for my top 200. Wonder if I should have ranked him - for some reason I completely forgot his existence.

I think Karlsson and Doughty will suffer in their rankings in the same way current players usually do here. It's always a fine line how different voters value lack of longevity of full career vs others. To me Karlsson is easily #1 among players listed here for prime - it's just longevity he lacks which is harder to evaluate.

 

[quoipourquoi]

The case against Karlsson is pretty easy: Shouldn't there be at least something of a gap between Brian Leetch himself and someone who is basically Brian Leetch with significantly less longevity?

The case for Karlsson I guess would be that he had a period of excellence that should be considered maybe a little higher than Leetch's when you consider the forwards with whom each of them played.

For me, that second one is a more accurate reading than the first.

Being the 4th leading scorer in the league is typically good enough for a Norris Trophy (2015-16). Being 5th in Hart voting is typically good enough for a Norris Trophy (2016-17).

I think it’s hard to look at those seasons and the Norris win in 2014-15 and say that it’s the same as Leetch’s two wins and a third nomination from seasons when Rangers centers were prominent fixtures in Hart and All-Star balloting.

2011-12 felt like a Leetch Norris. But beyond that, I think it would be letting the Norris rank make the season to find equal value between the two.

I think the Norris voting for both was a little too heavily tied to their team performance rather than individual performance (Drew Doughty is feeling that himself right now), but there’s enough there for Leetch to not serve as some sort of artificial cap for how we should feel about Erik Karlsson.

More than that, the idea of creating a gap between Karlsson and the already ranked Leetch rather than comparing Karlsson to the other eligible players would just make this whole exercise feel... arbitrary.

There’s more value in comparing Karlsson against Iginla or Karlsson against Ullman or Karlsson against Blake, Maltsev, Vasiliev, etc. than Karlsson against an ineligible player who is like him.

 

[ted2019]

Karlsson is pretty consistent offensively, but his defensive play is like a roller coaster. No consistency. And its been that way his whole career. Is he really that much better than a Brett Burns?

A part of an article the Athletic just done on the top 100 players in hockey.

“Erik Karlsson is interesting,” said a coach. “I would take Provorov over Karlsson any day of the week. I think Thomas Chabot will go by him. I don’t know if he’s there yet. But he’ll go by him. I’d take Brent Burns over Karlsson. When I look at defending, scoring, possession — I’d put Karlsson in 4A. I don’t think he defends at all.”

“He’s been awful,” said a Western Conference executive. “What is wrong with this guy? He went from maybe his game is just off, maybe he’ll get it back. Karlsson is one to look at. I know why he’s where he is (in the tiers). But this guy is not really good right now.”

 

[tarheelhockey]

Positional flexibility was very common in their era though, so I'm unsure if he passed this feature or whether it was just "in the air".

It was indeed "in the air" generally, especially during Gerard's early career.

In the era of only having 2-3 guys on the bench (on a good night) the ability for a player to flex between positions had heavy implications. That was especially true in the NHA era when a penalized player needed to be replaced while he was on the sideline. Those subs might be called upon to play any position, which could easily have a domino effect for the rest of the team, and so they were often spoken about with the language we use for "utility" players in baseball. That was the environment that Gerard knew as a young player.

That said, the dynasty Sens were the flag-bearers for this dynamic in the early NHL. Longer benches, non-substituted penalties, and a general trend toward specialization made position-switching more of an exception than it had been in the NHA. Yet the Sens' defensive core of Gerard, Boucher, Cleghorn were all converted forwards who could flex back and forth at a moment's notice. At the tail end of the dynasty, Clancy came in as a forward and then converted to become the best D of the group. All four of them were excellent puck-rushers. Nighbor even played the center position in a way that blurred the distinction between F and D. Those sorts of things did happen periodically on other teams, but the Sens made it their identity.

The result of that positionally-fluid culture was a 200-foot system that choked the life out of other teams. The Sens could turn on the offensive jets, establish a lead, and then play like 5 defensemen for the rest of the game. The strategy relied on two-way skillsets up and down the lineup, of which Gerard was a major component, and was profoundly different than the traditional approach of having each player operate only within his own designated space and skillset. This thread has more detail on how Gerard carried this concept into his coaching career with players like Babe Seibert, Hooley Smith, and Nels Stewart.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yes - he's better than Burns. Speaking of which - Burns is a name I never even considered for my top 200. Wonder if I should have ranked him - for some reason I completely forgot his existence.

I think Karlsson and Doughty will suffer in their rankings in the same way current players usually do here. It's always a fine line how different voters value lack of longevity of full career vs others. To me Karlsson is easily #1 among players listed here for prime - it's just longevity he lacks which is harder to evaluate.

When do you consider Karlsson's peak to be?

 

[ted2019]

Guys we might want to discuss early in the thread so they don’t get lost in the shuffle:

• Alexander Maltsev
• Toe Blake
• Valeri Vasiliev
• Vladimir Martinec

I think Iginla/Blake would be a great comparison. 2 Power Forwards from different eras.

Blake AS: 1,1,1,2,2
Iginla AS: 1,1,1,2,3,5,5

Blake Hart Voting: 1
Iginla Hart Voting: 2,2,3,10

Blake Top 10 Goals: 2,3,3,8
Iginla Top 10 Goals: 1,1,3,3

Blake Top 10 Assists: 3,6,7,7,8,8,10
Iginla Top 10 Assists: 10

Blake Top 10 Points: 1,3,3,6,7,7
Iginla Top 10 Points: 1,3 6,8

 

[ted2019]

Toe Blake from various ATD Bios:
Long before he became a coaching legend, left wing Hector "Toe" Blake was a talented scorer and NHL star. He totaled 235 career goals, including six 20-goal seasons and became known as "the Old Lamplighter" in honor of his skill for putting the puck in the net. During the 1940s he formed one of the league's most dangerous lines, the Punch Line, with Maurice Richard and Elmer Lach.

"Blake was the backbone of that group," explained Lach. "He was always in position; he was always serious and he was the same when he coached the Canadiens. The three of us did like to win. We made sure that we didn't have any goals scored against us. We hated that more than wanting to score.

There was nothing at which he did not excel. He was a strong, fast skater; he could and did pick the corners with his shots; his passing left little to be desired; he was a past-master at both fore and back checking; his services were in demand when his team had the odd-man advantage and he was often pressed into service when his team was short-handed.

"The hallmark of Blake's success is his doggedness," Marc T. MacNeil of the Gazette wrote. "He never ceases trying. He doesn't know what it means to quit." MacNeil was watching the Canadiens one night with Blake's injured teammate Bob Gracie. "There goes the best left winger in the National Hockey League," Gracie said as Blake dashed down the ice. "What a worker that guy is."

Toe Blake is Getting Reputation as a Fighter
Toe Blake's outbreak at Detroit is nothing new for the fiery Frenchman from norther Ontario. They say that when he was in the Canam league earlier this year with Springfield he was willing to take on all comers and got into some glorious brawls.

Toe Blake is an aggressive, boring-in goal scorer, who has inspired the Floating Frenchmen to a fine late season spurt. He will hurtle through the centre of a defence man or practically run along the rail of the boards to get that biscuit into a shooting spot and he should rank with the all-time greats in a few more years if his ribs hold out.

Blake is a coach who lives to get out on the ice and show his players just what he means. He took the odd turn with the team, sometimes at defence...Now old Toe has to get out there and do his stuff, aching dogs and all, but still a canny player and a wizard at killing off penalties.

Known more as a tough forward, Toe's talents were refined while with the Canadiens, and he became a proficient playmaker and scorer.

 

[ted2019]

Jarome Iginla from various ATD Bios:

His game, in which he did everything well, trumped expectation, and vaulted the Edmonton native of African descent into superstardom. A compact, powerful skater at six feet one..

Jarome is an extremely talented young man who plays for the Calgary Flames..played a critical role in Canada's victory with two goals and an assist..Jarome Iginla has become a pioneer at the Olympic level.

As a member of Team Canada, Iginla played a pivotal role in securing the teams first gold medal in 50 years..

Jarome Iginla, Calgary Flames: Tough, intense right winger can score and bang in the corners.

Jarome is the complete player that leads by example whether his team needs a goal, a big hit, or even a fight to ignite their competitive spirits

Has deceptive speed, great strength and a lethal shot. Can overpower defenders physically or use finesse. Possesses the soft hands of a natural goal-scorer, but will also drop the gloves when necessary.

Trevon Linden said:
I think it was a very classy thing to do. I think Jarome is one of the most classy players in the league, not only that, he’s probably the best player in the league. When you have a captain like that, it was certainly a very classy move on their part, no doubt.

Craig Conroy said:
You've got a power forward who does it all. I mean, he'll fight, and hit, and score goals. Maybe it's not the end-to-end rushes, but he does all those little things that win games and get things done.

Rob Blake said:
He'll run you over. Or he'll fight somebody. And then he'll score a goal. He does pretty much everything you'd want a guy to do.

The Hockey News Rankings:
2nd Most Respected
5th Best Power Forward
3rd Best Leader

Calgary Flames: Best Player Ever a leader who scores big goals, drops the gloves, runs the power play and does community work. What more can you ask for?

The Hockey News Yearbook 2010-11 said:

#41 - You know you are going to get your best from him and if he isn't scoring, he's still showing leadership and playing a robust physical game.

Steve Muir said:

His last name means "big tree" in his Nigerian father's native language, which seems fitting for a player who is still virtually impossible to move when he plants himself in the slot. The beauty of Iginla lies in his longevity. While others wear down over time, his dark passenger has kept him company throughout his 16-year career. He's relentless and punishing along the boards and a terror down low, but it's his continued willingness to make a statement that sets him apart. When the moment arises, he'll drop them, and he remains one of the most ferocious fighters in the game at 35.

Steve Yzerman said:

Leadership was a factor in our decision. He has always been a player to count on in the clutch.

The Hockey News Player Bio said:

ASSETS: Has deceptive speed, great strength and a lethal shot. Can overpower defenders physically or use finesse. Possesses the soft hands of a natural goal-scorer, but will also drop the gloves when necessary. He is the ultimate leader.

FLAWS: Is needed on the ice, so he's limited in the amount of physical toughness he can display, as well as the number of times he can drop the gloves. Has been known to start off slowly out of the gate in recent seasons.

The Hockey Scouting Report - 1998 said:

The Finesse Game
Iginla is an ideal second-line player who was forced to handle first-line responsibility with talent-starved Calgary; for most of the season he held up well under the circumstances. If he hadn't run into a second-half slump, he would have given Bryan Berard a better run for the Calder.

Iginla doesn't have great speed but he's smart and energetic. What puts Iginla ahead of other 19-year-olds is his defensive play, which he developed first in junior. The scoring touch came later, which is the reverse for most young players and is one of the reasons why he was able to step into the NHL with such success. He has a veteran's understanding of the game, though he may never be a great scorer and will have to work hard for his goals. Throw out Adam Graves' one 50-goal season and you are looking at Iginla's future.

Iginla does his best work in the corners and in front of the net. He is strong, and doesn't mind the trench warfare. In fact, he thrives on it.

The Physical Game
Iginla is gritty, powerful and aggressive. He will take a hit to make a play but, even better, he will initiate the hits. He has a mean streak and will have to control himself at the same time he is proving his mettle around the NHL; a fine line to walk.

The Intangibles
The key word to describe Iginla is character. He has played on winners in Kamloops and Team Canada. He was not a bit player in those titles, either. He will pay his share of dues with a rebuilding Calgary team, but he proved last year he was all he was advertised to be when the Flames acquired him from Dallas for Joe Nieuwendyk. Iginla's only flaw was learning how to concentrate on each game, but that will come with experience.​