Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 1

[Hockey Outsider]

Sorry I've been MIA this week. It's looking like I'm probably not going to have a ton of time to participate, which is disappointing, especially because I was one of the people who pushed for this project (as opposed to the pre-consolidation project). For what it's worth, I can commit to, at a minimum, reading every post and sending in my votes weekly.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Sorry I've been MIA this week. It's looking like I'm probably not going to have a ton of time to participate, which is disappointing, especially because I was one of the people who pushed for this project (as opposed to the pre-consolidation project). For what it's worth, I can commit to, at a minimum, reading every post and sending in my votes weekly.

I'll miss your long info dump tables that you would post Monday or Tuesday of every round. If you aren't going to be able to necessarily do that every week, I'll post my stats and awards records early on, though my info is a bit more limited than yours. I almost want to ask for access to your spreadsheets, but I'm basically a C-student when it comes to spreadsheets, so it might not be worth it...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Current thoughts:

• I'm leaning towards Ullman as #1, for reasons I've given - best regular season scoring numbers of anyone this round and a significantly more rounded player than Stastny, who is the only other NHLer this round who is close in offense. Ullman did this while being used as basically an even-strength specialist. I agree with blogofmike that Ullman's playoff record isn't as good as "led the playoffs twice" would have you see at first, but I think it's perfectly acceptable. But I could see myself changing my mind and listing a few other guys here.
• Leaning towards Martinec as #2. I like his consistent prime, all-round game, and big game mentality a lot. Average longevity. I totally understand the argument for Maltsev. But part of me just thinks it's time for the best player from the first golden age of Czech hockey.
• Iginla #3? In addition to his goalscoring, he put up really gaudy plus-minus numbers on otherwise weak teams. Obviously not an defensive whiz, but it seems like his ability to win puck battles all over the ice was did something for him.
• Maltsev #4? Easily the most decorated USSR player available, both according to the World Championship voters and the Soviet Player of the Year award voters. Ridiculously good longevity compared to most other European players at the time.
• After the top 4, it's a mess. I can think of a good case for most of these guys to be top 5 this round!
• Eddie Gerard over Erik Karlsson? Both had short dominant peaks, but Gerard did more in the playoffs. Anyone care to change my mind on this one? I wish Karlsson didn't get injured; he was on pace to be a legit top 50 player...at least!
• The only 2 men I am definitely not ranking in my top 10 are Savard and Vasiliev. I look forward to voting for them in a few rounds, but I feel they just don't compare favorably to the other guys this round.

Okay, going further with this. My current leanings, but things could change by the time I vote tomorrow:

5. Drew Doughty - as close to a flawless career as any dman left available. Strong Norris record (probably 2nd best to Quackenbush), and nobody would bat an eye if he had two Conn Smythes
6. Eddie Gerard - another close to flawless career, and one of the two cornerstones of the NHL's first dynasty along with Nighbor. I think he lacks a bit of longevity compared to Doughty, but it's awfully close.
7. Toe Blake - His Hart winning season was truly great, but he was never quite that good again. Still, he was the ultimate utility player, strong at literally every aspect of the game. Really good playoff record. Seems dead average in both ends of the rink compared to who is available right now.
8. Bill Quackenbush - Tied with Mark Howe in the HOH defenseman project and for good reason - Quackenbush was a true all-rounder. Best regular season record of any remaining defenseman. Played a "Lidstrom-lite" style - praised as the best defensive defenseman of his time, yet did it with a finesse game. His offfense was somewhat secondary, but he was still among the top scoring defensemen of his (admittedly weak at the high end) era.
9. Doug Gilmour - would be higher if he had more elite seasons. Worst offensive forward this round, best defensive forward this round.
10. Erik Karlsson - I really want to have him higher, but his prime is so ridiculously short as of now.

That leaves Savard, Stastny, Vasiliev, and Bowie on the outside looking in. I'm pleasantly surprised by how good these candidates are, and would vote for any of them in the next few rounds. I just feel like Savard and Vasiliev lack a certain dynamic game that the other dmen this round have. I can't rank Stastny over Gilmour. And I am beginning to find the Bowie = Stastny line of thought to be appealing (I mean, how on earth do we compare the dominant amateur player any better?)

 

[DN28]

I am also supporting Norm Ullman and Jarome Iginla. They are 4th-5th best players from the eligibles and IMO decisively the two of the best NHL forwards available now.

I've had Iginla above Ullman on my original list. That does seem a little wrong now and I'm leaning toward Ullman but I am still open to this debate. I'd welcome any additional thoughts of you guys specifically on Ullman vs. Iginla.

They both have the best offense from NHLers here (VsX indicator). Both played seemingly forever. Iginla was a noted leader, gentleman, well respected by anyone despite his demanding physical playing style. It's been said that Iginla had solid +/- numbers, resp. his R-on; R-off ratio. This could be an argument in favor of Iginla. Ullman had demonstrably weak +/- (and R-on; R-off).

However, it's been pointed out that Iginla - despite bringing many things to the table - has virtually no Selke record. Ullman on the other hand would have a strong Selke record, right?

Ullman was better defensively - at least according to that overwhelming sea of quotes praising his two-way abilities. I take a note of Mike's scepticism of Ullman (which is supported by +/- stats), but man.. there is so many Detroit AND Toronto hockey people saying the nicest words about Ullman.. It's not just one or two quotes from one specific season..

Then there is that even strength thing again going strongly in favor of Ullman (I like that Henri Richard lite comparison).

Playoffs? It appears Ullman's playoffs was OK, nothing ground-breaking but nothing too diminishing. I've read the posts about Ullman boosting his playoffs points on Chicago, but I personally don't see that as too of a negative. I mean, it's OK to consistently crush it versus 1 of 4 best NHL teams. I take the point though that it does put his play-off peak 63-66 into more grounded perspective.

Was Iginla better playoff performer? If so, by a small difference.

Anyway, I expect both of these players to pass this vote and they should.

 

[DN28]

Also wanted to give a quick look at defensemen. Going into this round, I've had Vasiliev, then Doughty, then Quackenbush and then Gerard. Norris / All-star D records of Doughty and Quackenbush were posted, how would Vasiliev compare to them?

During previous project, I made two detailed posts (1st part, 2nd part) outlining how would have Vasiliev's career likely played out in a global league with fully integrated Western and Eastern talent. I compared Vasiliev to his closest European competitors and to his NHL rivals. My Vasiliev projection looks like this:

Valeri Vasiliev
1970: Irregular NHL player
1971: Irregular NHL player
1972: Full-time regular NHL player
1973: 6th best d-man
1974: 4th best d-man
1975: 4th best d-man
1976: 13th best d-man with fringe Norris voting support
1977: 6th best d-man
1978: 12th best d-man with fringe Norris voting support
1979: 1st best d-man
1980: 4th best d-man
1981: 4th best d-man
1982: 6th best d-man
1983: Full-time regular NHL player
1984: Full-time regular NHL player

Drew Doughty's career according to his actual Norris voting record:
2009: Full-time regular NHL player
2010: 3rd best d-man
2011: 10th best d-man
2012: Full-time regular NHL player
2013: 9th best d-man
2014: 6th best d-man
2015: 2nd best d-man
2016: 1st best d-man
2017: 7th best d-man
2018: 2nd best d-man
2019: Full-time regular NHL player
2020: 19th best d-man with fringe Norris voting support

Bill Quackenbush's career according to his actual media All-Star Defensemen voting record:
1943: Irregular NHL player
1944: 9th best d-man
1945: Full-time regular NHL player
1946: 5th best d-man
1947: 4th best d-man
1948: 1st best d-man
1949: 1st best d-man
1950: 7th best d-man
1951: 2nd best d-man
1952: Full-time regular NHL player
1953: 3rd best d-man
1954: 12th best d-man with fringe All-Star D voting support
1955: Full-time regular NHL player
1956: 17th best d-man with fringe All-Star D voting support
_________________________

I'm not saying that the Norris / AST voters always get things right but it's helpful to me to design this thing in this way. From my perspective, Quackenbush actually appears to have the strongest career among these 3 d-men. Doughty probably worst, although it all depends upon acceptance of my Vasiliev estimate.

Is Doughty's play-off record sufficient enough to overtake Quackenbush's full career? Doughty has a strange 2012 season where he didn't get a single throw-away vote but proceeded to have outstanding SC run with the Kings.

It was said, I think by MXD earlier, that Quackenbush's playoffs career looks underwhelming when you realize the Red Wings dynasty started the moment Quack left for Boston. But how did Quackenbush play in the playoffs generally? How good was he in high-pressure games?

Any thoughts on Doughty vs. Quackenbush vs. Vasiliev? I'll still probably have them as my 3 best Ds this vote with Gerard right behind them.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I am also supporting Norm Ullman and Jarome Iginla. They are 4th-5th best players from the eligibles and IMO decisively the two of the best NHL forwards available now.

I've had Iginla above Ullman on my original list. That does seem a little wrong now and I'm leaning toward Ullman but I am still open to this debate. I'd welcome any additional thoughts of you guys specifically on Ullman vs. Iginla.

They both have the best offense from NHLers here (VsX indicator). Both played seemingly forever. Iginla was a noted leader, gentleman, well respected by anyone despite his demanding physical playing style. It's been said that Iginla had solid +/- numbers, resp. his R-on; R-off ratio. This could be an argument in favor of Iginla. Ullman had demonstrably weak +/- (and R-on; R-off).

However, it's been pointed out that Iginla - despite bringing many things to the table - has virtually no Selke record. Ullman on the other hand would have a strong Selke record, right?

Ullman was better defensively - at least according to that overwhelming sea of quotes praising his two-way abilities. I take a note of Mike's scepticism of Ullman (which is supported by +/- stats), but man.. there is so many Detroit AND Toronto hockey people saying the nicest words about Ullman.. It's not just one or two quotes from one specific season..

Then there is that even strenght thing again going strongly in favor of Ullman (I like that Henri Richard lite comparison).

Playoffs? It appears Ullman's playoffs was OK, nothing ground-breaking but nothing too diminishing. I've read the posts about Ullman boosting his playoffs points on Chicago, but I personally don't see that as too of a negative. I mean, it's OK to consistently crush it versus 1 of 4 best NHL teams. I take the point though that it does put his play-off peak 63-66 into more grounded perspective.

Was Iginla better playoff performer? If so, by a small difference.

Anyway, I expect both of these players to pass this vote and they should.

I like Iginla here.

Ullman gets high marks because I really admire the players of the 1960s, pre-expansion. Ullman was not recognized as much as the other stars of the era, but probably should have been.

To me, Iginla has a "bigger game". Physical, along the boards and in the slot, fight when needed, a better goal scorer. Defensively, he was responsible. As a winger, that's really good enough. Ullman's defense, as a center, is more important. Seems that he was good but not great.

Both get my vote but Iginla will be higher.

 

[ted2019]

Sent my list.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Also wanted to give a quick look at defensemen. Going into this round, I've had Vasiliev, then Doughty, then Quackenbush and then Gerard. Norris / All-star D records of Doughty and Quackenbush were posted, how would Vasiliev compare to them?

During previous project, I made two detailed posts (1st part, 2nd part) outlining how would have Vasiliev's career likely played out in a global league with fully integrated Western and Eastern talent. I compared Vasiliev to his closest European competitors and to his NHL rivals. My Vasiliev projection looks like this:

Valeri Vasiliev
1970: Irregular NHL player
1971: Irregular NHL player
1972: Full-time regular NHL player
1973: 6th best d-man
1974: 4th best d-man
1975: 4th best d-man
1976: 13th best d-man with fringe Norris voting support
1977: 6th best d-man
1978: 12th best d-man with fringe Norris voting support
1979: 1st best d-man
1980: 4th best d-man
1981: 4th best d-man
1982: 6th best d-man
1983: Full-time regular NHL player
1984: Full-time regular NHL player

Drew Doughty's career according to his actual Norris voting record:
2009: Full-time regular NHL player
2010: 3rd best d-man
2011: 10th best d-man
2012: Full-time regular NHL player
2013: 9th best d-man
2014: 6th best d-man
2015: 2nd best d-man
2016: 1st best d-man
2017: 7th best d-man
2018: 2nd best d-man
2019: Full-time regular NHL player
2020: 19th best d-man with fringe Norris voting support

Bill Quackenbush's career according to his actual media All-Star Defensemen voting record:
1943: Irregular NHL player
1944: 9th best d-man
1945: Full-time regular NHL player
1946: 5th best d-man
1947: 4th best d-man
1948: 1st best d-man
1949: 1st best d-man
1950: 7th best d-man
1951: 2nd best d-man
1952: Full-time regular NHL player
1953: 3rd best d-man
1954: 12th best d-man with fringe All-Star D voting support
1955: Full-time regular NHL player
1956: 17th best d-man with fringe All-Star D voting support
_________________________

I'm not saying that the Norris / AST voters always get things right but it's helpful to me to design this thing in this way. From my perspective, Quackenbush actually appears to have the strongest career among these 3 d-men. Doughty probably worst, although it all depends upon acceptance of my Vasiliev estimate.

Is Doughty's play-off record sufficient enough to overtake Quackenbush's full career? Doughty has a strange 2012 season where he didn't get a single throw-away vote but proceeded to have outstanding SC run with the Kings.

It was said, I think by MXD earlier, that Quackenbush's playoffs career looks underwhelming when you realize the Red Wings dynasty started the moment Quack left for Boston. But how did Quackenbush play in the playoffs generally? How good was he in high-pressure games?

Any thoughts on Doughty vs. Quackenbush vs. Vasiliev? I'll still probably have them as my 3 best Ds this vote with Gerard right behind them.

Thanks for this... it’s a really close reflection of how I think about these guys.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Here's a game you can see Ullman in:

 

[Professor What]

Did anyone else feel like there were a lot of players that could be shuffled around in the end? I did. I really feel like probably the top eight on my list could be moved about a good bit and not do any gross injustice.

 

[seventieslord]

Did anyone else feel like there were a lot of players that could be shuffled around in the end? I did. I really feel like probably the top eight on my list could be moved about a good bit and not do any gross injustice.

Yeah, the players to advance this round are probably one with three first place votes, two with two first place votes, and two who managed to get enough 3rds and 4ths to rise above that pack.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I'll miss your long info dump tables that you would post Monday or Tuesday of every round. If you aren't going to be able to necessarily do that every week, I'll post my stats and awards records early on, though my info is a bit more limited than yours. I almost want to ask for access to your spreadsheets, but I'm basically a C-student when it comes to spreadsheets, so it might not be worth it...

Thanks, I'll try to post those going forward. I don't really have an excuse - it takes 10 minutes to pull the data and it doesn't really require much mental effort. I'd like to write more opinion/analysis based posts too, but of course that requires more thought.

I'll send in my votes this evening. A few quick thoughts:

• Norm Ullman will be my top choice. I think he was worst exclusion from the original Top 100 list, and several people have already laid out the case I would have made.
• I still find myself struggling with Russell Bowie as there are compelling arguments to put him near the top of the list, or exclude him entirely.
• I've always been impressed by Vasiliev during the (admittedly limited) times I've seen him play. But I wonder how much of that is my Canadian bias. And by that I mean, of the great Soviet defensemen, Vasiliev's style is the most understandable to me, looking at it through the lens of Canadian hockey strategies & tactics. Maybe I'm overrating him somewhat because I "get" him more than some of the other Soviet greats. (That being said, someone compared him to Kevin Lowe earlier in the thread, and I think that's really selling him short).
• There's a lot to like with Iginla but his inconsistency hurts. I had him one spot ahead of Gilmour on my original list, but I'll likely rank Gilmour higher(who was also inconsistent - moreso than Iginla - but the advantages in defensive play and the postseason are pretty big).

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Thanks, I'll try to post those going forward. I don't really have an excuse - it takes 10 minutes to pull the data and it doesn't really require much mental effort. I'd like to write more opinion/analysis based posts too, but of course that requires more thought.

There's a lot to like with Iginla but his inconsistency hurts. I had him one spot ahead of Gilmour on my original list, but I'll likely rank Gilmour higher(who was also inconsistent - moreso than Iginla - but the advantages in defensive play and the postseason are pretty big).

Goal scoring was pretty consistent.

12 30 goal seasons (11 straight), two others with 29, one more of 28.

 

[Professor What]

So, do get a new list every Monday?

 

[BenchBrawl]

I thought we got PMs for when voting start. My mistake. I was actually waiting for voting to start, didn't realize it was already opened.