Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time
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Canadiens1958
Registered User
Their defensive contribution is overlooked more often than not.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Eventually this will happen with each following decade.
The names without staying power or lacking a complete game will drop just like offensive only stars from the early years did.
Prime example Frank Nighbor rising since 2008 compared to higher scoring contemporaries from the first 20-25 NHL seasons.
Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
You mean I might not have to dust off my notes for Johnny Bucyk vs. Teemu Selanne? I welcome this new HOH.
Though in 2029, they’ll probably be saying that we really liked something else - which is good, because just because a different collective thought something doesn’t mean that any of you necessarily have to think the same.
Don’t get too caught up on who is rising and who is falling. Important thing is to just focus on the 10-12 names from that given week. Compartmentalize.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Trottier should have finished under Sakic, like he did in the centers project... Ok i think this is the last time I'm going to complain about this one.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Because we're doing actual research and having actual discussions...
Did we confirm we're letting next round go 2 weeks, or are we sticking to the 1 week period?
I'll probably vote tomorrow as i'm travelling this weekend.
I'll probably vote tomorrow as i'm travelling this weekend.
Hopefully we can go through at least 4 pages in the next round without lamenting why so and so isn't available yet.
Note to self.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
I feel like I already told you all not to do the thing you’re doing.
You’re just creating more work for me down the line when I have to purge off-topic posts just so I don’t have to lock a project thread.
You’re just creating more work for me down the line when I have to purge off-topic posts just so I don’t have to lock a project thread.
According to Farkas these types of conversations are always going on in the project. If it’s creating extra work for you then maybe another thread can be opened for it.
Theokritos
Global Moderator
- Apr 6, 2010
- 12,655
- 5,056
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Theokritos
Global Moderator
- Apr 6, 2010
- 12,655
- 5,056
And this thread is open again. Continue, but please stay on topic.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
So since we're a 3rd of the way done, I wanted to do an overview of how I see the rankings thus far.
Again, massive thank you to @quoipourquoi for handling this thing. Wouldn't be possible without him.
1. Gretzky
-To be expected. Holds just about every offensive record known to man. Some by massive margins. Great regular, postseason and international resume. I had Orr #1, but this ranking isn't a surprise to 98% of people I'd wager.
2. Howe
-Jumps Orr. Hard to argue against it very much, even if I think Orr was the games greatest, most complete player. Howe was the game's greatest iron man. Kept up with NHL'ers until he was 51!!!
3. Orr
-See above.
4. Lemieux
-Has he ever not been in 4th?
It's the right spot for him anyway.
5. Hull
-Usually in 5th. Again, hard to argue. Might have given Mario a run had he not left the NHL. Greatest goal scorer ever IMO.
6. Beliveau
-One of my favorite players who I didn't get the chance to see play. Probably the greatest captain the league ever saw. I personally would have flipped he and Harvey (6th and 8th) because I think Harvey was the engine for most of those Habs teams but again, 2 spots. Not going to kick up dust over that.
7. Roy
-Thank God. Best goalie ever needed to be in the top 10. I'd argue as high as #5 given his postseason resume and the advanced numbers bearing out he was often a very dominant goalie in the regular season as well.
8. Harvey
-To me, the only Dman that isn't light years behind Bobby Orr. I had him a few spots higher.
9. Richard
-I think his 50 in 50 is overrated somewhat because it came at the height of WWII and the league was greatly depleted in talent, but it's pretty hard to argue against Richard in the top 10 given his legendary goal scoring ability, his postseason dominance and the fact he did it all while under insane pressures from in and around Montreal, especially being the kid of a working class family, which meant a lot more then, than it does today.
10. Bourque
-Good spot. Only Howe has better longevity all time. Really underrated peak as well. His awards and postseason accolades are simply astounding. Had he enjoyed more team successes he'd be higher on this list, but the bulk of his career was played on the wrong team, during multiple dynasties.
11. Morenz
-First ranking I think is too high. Other's have more impressive regular and postseason credentials, C or otherwise. Some of his value seems to come from folk lore and I personally don't give that much credence. He underwhelmed me as a postseason player, especially somebody who played on a many, many top teams in the league at the time. Numbers don't match the reputation he had. Still, he's a top 20 player all time IMO, just not this high.
12. Crosby
-One spot higher than I originally had him. This is about right. Great peak (would have been elite if not for 2 crucial lost seasons due to injuries out of his control). Had he not lost 2011 and 2013 he'd easily be in the top 10. Continued longevity as a top player in the game 14 years later. Already 10th all time in playoff scoring before hitting 31. 7th i believe in PPG there. 3 Cups, 2 Smythes (1 was weaker). Stellar international acclaim. As Mike Babcock said once, "he's a serial winner". Couldn't describe him any better to this point.
13. Hasek
-Good spot for him. A lot like Bourque except Hasek is mostly peak, and it's an insanely good one in the regular season, but both needed to join elite teams late in their career to achieve team success. Had he played on better teams (they weren't bad, just usually a tier below the best or so) we're probably talking about him in the top 10.
14. Shore
-Pretty big drop. But probably warranted when you factor in the 2 goalies and Crosby making his way up and his dirty play often disadvantaging Boston in crunch time.
15. Lidstrom
-The most boring star that has played to date IMO. Other than a lack of a physical game, Lidstrom was about as letter perfect as you can get from a Dman, in all situations. His comp was a bit weaker than others but his post 30's career is absurd. Like seeing him up here.
16. Jagr
-Big jump. Completely disagree with it. But already hashed this out 1000 times.
17. Kelly
-One of the all time great multi positional players (the other being Dit Clapper who may be the best given he was a postseason AS multiple times at both D and W, but we'll ge to him later) Gave Doug Harvey a run for his money in the 50's. A little underwhelmed by his postseason career in Detroit but he really made up for that with his play at C for Toronto IMO)
.......................18-34 coming later this evening!
18. Potvin
-Solid placement for Potvin. IMO, maybe a few spots to high (I'd personally have Messier, Nighbor and Plante over him) but it's a fact he was the horse that led the Islander chariot. He was the OG of the Islander dynasty and boy was he good. Great 2 way play, leadership, elite toughness, generally showed up in big games.
19. Plante
-Pretty clearly the 3rd best goalie ever.
20. Nighbor
-Biggest riser from a decade back and completely warranted. He was the best, most complete hockey player in the game prior to the forward pass and consolidation. He was a good offensive player, an elite defensive C, and elite way more often than not when the playoffs rolled around. Love seeing him get his due.
21. Messier
-How Jagr finished above this guy is a bleeping joke to me. Messier won more Harts than Jagr, against stiffer comp, and was an actual 2 way F. He wasn't a blue chip prospect or high draft pick. Guy would go through a brick wall for you and in the postseason he was an easy top 5 player all time. I mean the guy called his shot in NY in 94 and delivered an epic, Ruth like response. Won a bunch of Cups, whether he was Robin to Gretzky's Batman, or when he was leading the Oilers himself after 99 got dealt. Could have easily won 3-4 Smythe's if not for 99 and a once in a lifetime Randford performance in 90.
22. Ovechkin
-New addition and for good reason. Pretty clearly the 2nd best goal scorer ever. Some will argue him 1st, especially if he wins another Rocket, and that seems like a strong possibility with how he's doing this year. His regular season resume would probably get him a bit higher here but he still needs to do more in the postseason. Finally got his Cup and a solid Smythe so he no longer has to duck the choker label. But still his postseason resume is pretty bare otherwise. The good news is the Caps finally slayed the Pens and proved they could do it. Can they do it again? If so, he'll be up alongside Sid.
23. Lafleur
-Maybe a few spots to high. I'm less bullish on wingers in general but he was the best pure talent on the 70's dynasty. Not much longevity but damn if his peak wasn't crazy good.
24. Mikita
-Dropped. Some new faces and more examination of his playoffs hurt him somewhat. Honestly I feel pretty comfortable with him around here now. Still a player I really liked studying and reading about. Small man, but so many said he was one of the toughest, pound for pound players the league saw at the time.
25. Fetisov
-I'd put him up higher, around Potvin, with both being around 20 or so. Greatest Soviet D by a mile. Almost always showed very well against Canada and the best teams in the world on the international circuit. Took a bit to get going in the NHL but he didn't look out of place, especially Detroit. But the transition to the NHL happened well after his prime and most early Soviets didn't exactly light the world on fire. Tough change in terms of how the game was played and the fact that the USSR and US/Canada were very, very different places.
26. Makarov
-It used to be Kharlamov that got all the attention but with more in depth study over the years that has changed. At least here in the West. Nice to see him up alongside Fetisov.
27. Esposito
-Dropped. Probably the right call. It's how I view players that were clearly benefiting from elite, all time players. In PE's case, it was Bobby Orr. Phil didn't do a lot of cycling, he wasn't a great skater. Orr drove those Bruin teams and Espo was the greatest slot player in the world. It was a deadly combo but his numbers need context. This is the right area for him IMO.
28. Hall
-Dropped. I think he, Plante and Brodeur should have all been closer together which means I would have liked to Hall and Marty inside the top 25. Great peak, incredible longevity. 551 straight games played is just unfathomable. Probably the most ridiculous record in hockey history.
29. Clarke
-Another guy who dropped, but again, you had big risers like Crosby, Nighbor and Ovechkin, Fetisov and Makarov. 10 years later this seems like a good area for BC.
30. Brodeur
-See Hall, Glenn. Brodeur's longevity is elite. He was better than his raw numbers indicate thanks to multiple studies done by HoH folks. Best puckhandling/moving goalie in history.
31. Trottier
-See Bobby Clarke. I'd have probably flipped he and Sakic but honestly, with all the new faces, it's not outlandish to see these guys fall a little bit.
32. Sakic
-Flip a coin with he, Clarke and Trottier.
33. Taylor
-Big riser and glad to see he is likely flipping positions with Lalonde who, like Morenz, seemed to get more miles of that Montreal bias. Taylor was a superstar who dominated the comp like few others have in hockey history.
34. Cook
-Big riser and nice to see him above Lindsay, and Bossy.
Again, massive thank you to @quoipourquoi for handling this thing. Wouldn't be possible without him.
1. Gretzky
-To be expected. Holds just about every offensive record known to man. Some by massive margins. Great regular, postseason and international resume. I had Orr #1, but this ranking isn't a surprise to 98% of people I'd wager.
2. Howe
-Jumps Orr. Hard to argue against it very much, even if I think Orr was the games greatest, most complete player. Howe was the game's greatest iron man. Kept up with NHL'ers until he was 51!!!
3. Orr
-See above.
4. Lemieux
-Has he ever not been in 4th?
It's the right spot for him anyway.5. Hull
-Usually in 5th. Again, hard to argue. Might have given Mario a run had he not left the NHL. Greatest goal scorer ever IMO.
6. Beliveau
-One of my favorite players who I didn't get the chance to see play. Probably the greatest captain the league ever saw. I personally would have flipped he and Harvey (6th and 8th) because I think Harvey was the engine for most of those Habs teams but again, 2 spots. Not going to kick up dust over that.
7. Roy
-Thank God. Best goalie ever needed to be in the top 10. I'd argue as high as #5 given his postseason resume and the advanced numbers bearing out he was often a very dominant goalie in the regular season as well.
8. Harvey
-To me, the only Dman that isn't light years behind Bobby Orr. I had him a few spots higher.
9. Richard
-I think his 50 in 50 is overrated somewhat because it came at the height of WWII and the league was greatly depleted in talent, but it's pretty hard to argue against Richard in the top 10 given his legendary goal scoring ability, his postseason dominance and the fact he did it all while under insane pressures from in and around Montreal, especially being the kid of a working class family, which meant a lot more then, than it does today.
10. Bourque
-Good spot. Only Howe has better longevity all time. Really underrated peak as well. His awards and postseason accolades are simply astounding. Had he enjoyed more team successes he'd be higher on this list, but the bulk of his career was played on the wrong team, during multiple dynasties.
11. Morenz
-First ranking I think is too high. Other's have more impressive regular and postseason credentials, C or otherwise. Some of his value seems to come from folk lore and I personally don't give that much credence. He underwhelmed me as a postseason player, especially somebody who played on a many, many top teams in the league at the time. Numbers don't match the reputation he had. Still, he's a top 20 player all time IMO, just not this high.
12. Crosby
-One spot higher than I originally had him. This is about right. Great peak (would have been elite if not for 2 crucial lost seasons due to injuries out of his control). Had he not lost 2011 and 2013 he'd easily be in the top 10. Continued longevity as a top player in the game 14 years later. Already 10th all time in playoff scoring before hitting 31. 7th i believe in PPG there. 3 Cups, 2 Smythes (1 was weaker). Stellar international acclaim. As Mike Babcock said once, "he's a serial winner". Couldn't describe him any better to this point.
13. Hasek
-Good spot for him. A lot like Bourque except Hasek is mostly peak, and it's an insanely good one in the regular season, but both needed to join elite teams late in their career to achieve team success. Had he played on better teams (they weren't bad, just usually a tier below the best or so) we're probably talking about him in the top 10.
14. Shore
-Pretty big drop. But probably warranted when you factor in the 2 goalies and Crosby making his way up and his dirty play often disadvantaging Boston in crunch time.
15. Lidstrom
-The most boring star that has played to date IMO. Other than a lack of a physical game, Lidstrom was about as letter perfect as you can get from a Dman, in all situations. His comp was a bit weaker than others but his post 30's career is absurd. Like seeing him up here.
16. Jagr
-Big jump. Completely disagree with it. But already hashed this out 1000 times.
17. Kelly
-One of the all time great multi positional players (the other being Dit Clapper who may be the best given he was a postseason AS multiple times at both D and W, but we'll ge to him later) Gave Doug Harvey a run for his money in the 50's. A little underwhelmed by his postseason career in Detroit but he really made up for that with his play at C for Toronto IMO)
.......................18-34 coming later this evening!
18. Potvin
-Solid placement for Potvin. IMO, maybe a few spots to high (I'd personally have Messier, Nighbor and Plante over him) but it's a fact he was the horse that led the Islander chariot. He was the OG of the Islander dynasty and boy was he good. Great 2 way play, leadership, elite toughness, generally showed up in big games.
19. Plante
-Pretty clearly the 3rd best goalie ever.
20. Nighbor
-Biggest riser from a decade back and completely warranted. He was the best, most complete hockey player in the game prior to the forward pass and consolidation. He was a good offensive player, an elite defensive C, and elite way more often than not when the playoffs rolled around. Love seeing him get his due.
21. Messier
-How Jagr finished above this guy is a bleeping joke to me. Messier won more Harts than Jagr, against stiffer comp, and was an actual 2 way F. He wasn't a blue chip prospect or high draft pick. Guy would go through a brick wall for you and in the postseason he was an easy top 5 player all time. I mean the guy called his shot in NY in 94 and delivered an epic, Ruth like response. Won a bunch of Cups, whether he was Robin to Gretzky's Batman, or when he was leading the Oilers himself after 99 got dealt. Could have easily won 3-4 Smythe's if not for 99 and a once in a lifetime Randford performance in 90.
22. Ovechkin
-New addition and for good reason. Pretty clearly the 2nd best goal scorer ever. Some will argue him 1st, especially if he wins another Rocket, and that seems like a strong possibility with how he's doing this year. His regular season resume would probably get him a bit higher here but he still needs to do more in the postseason. Finally got his Cup and a solid Smythe so he no longer has to duck the choker label. But still his postseason resume is pretty bare otherwise. The good news is the Caps finally slayed the Pens and proved they could do it. Can they do it again? If so, he'll be up alongside Sid.
23. Lafleur
-Maybe a few spots to high. I'm less bullish on wingers in general but he was the best pure talent on the 70's dynasty. Not much longevity but damn if his peak wasn't crazy good.
24. Mikita
-Dropped. Some new faces and more examination of his playoffs hurt him somewhat. Honestly I feel pretty comfortable with him around here now. Still a player I really liked studying and reading about. Small man, but so many said he was one of the toughest, pound for pound players the league saw at the time.
25. Fetisov
-I'd put him up higher, around Potvin, with both being around 20 or so. Greatest Soviet D by a mile. Almost always showed very well against Canada and the best teams in the world on the international circuit. Took a bit to get going in the NHL but he didn't look out of place, especially Detroit. But the transition to the NHL happened well after his prime and most early Soviets didn't exactly light the world on fire. Tough change in terms of how the game was played and the fact that the USSR and US/Canada were very, very different places.
26. Makarov
-It used to be Kharlamov that got all the attention but with more in depth study over the years that has changed. At least here in the West. Nice to see him up alongside Fetisov.
27. Esposito
-Dropped. Probably the right call. It's how I view players that were clearly benefiting from elite, all time players. In PE's case, it was Bobby Orr. Phil didn't do a lot of cycling, he wasn't a great skater. Orr drove those Bruin teams and Espo was the greatest slot player in the world. It was a deadly combo but his numbers need context. This is the right area for him IMO.
28. Hall
-Dropped. I think he, Plante and Brodeur should have all been closer together which means I would have liked to Hall and Marty inside the top 25. Great peak, incredible longevity. 551 straight games played is just unfathomable. Probably the most ridiculous record in hockey history.
29. Clarke
-Another guy who dropped, but again, you had big risers like Crosby, Nighbor and Ovechkin, Fetisov and Makarov. 10 years later this seems like a good area for BC.
30. Brodeur
-See Hall, Glenn. Brodeur's longevity is elite. He was better than his raw numbers indicate thanks to multiple studies done by HoH folks. Best puckhandling/moving goalie in history.
31. Trottier
-See Bobby Clarke. I'd have probably flipped he and Sakic but honestly, with all the new faces, it's not outlandish to see these guys fall a little bit.
32. Sakic
-Flip a coin with he, Clarke and Trottier.
33. Taylor
-Big riser and glad to see he is likely flipping positions with Lalonde who, like Morenz, seemed to get more miles of that Montreal bias. Taylor was a superstar who dominated the comp like few others have in hockey history.
34. Cook
-Big riser and nice to see him above Lindsay, and Bossy.
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Bulls rank by Offensive Rating and Defensive Rating in their 6 championship years:
90-91: 1st in Offense, 7th in Defense
91-92: 1st in Offense, 4th in Defense
92-93: 2nd in Offense, 7th in Defense
95-96: 1st in Offense, 1st in Defense
96-97: 1st in Offense, 4th in Defense
97-98: 9th in Offense, 3rd in Defense
Even with people acknowledging the defensive accomplishments of Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and Grant, they were a better offensive team than defensive.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Of course they were dominant offensively. Michael Jordan will do that for you (along with the rest of the quality depth players they had). And FTR, Michael Jordan>>>>>Lebron James, and I hated the Jordan Bulls in my teenage years.
The point is that defense, is always, overlooked by the average person. Those Bulls teams were, as those numbers showed elite to good defensively. That matters. A lot. There are people who only look at offensive stats (points, goals, assists, etc) and form a conclusion based on those numbers by and large. It's a half assed analysis. One that doesn't hold up in the real world. Sure as hell wouldn't in my line of work, or many others I imagine.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
My HoH Top 50 Players Of All Time!
I did a pretty in depth HoH top 50 last year. I wanted to go back and see how it stacked up with this go and I'm pretty happy to say a lot of it is pretty close to what we have so far, minus Morenz, Jagr, Brodeur and Ovechkin (list was obviously done a year prior to their Cup win). Mikita was a bit lower in this and something I actually agree with given an even bigger look.
Nailed the too 10, top 5 in correct order with the 6-10 varying slightly.
Basically I flipped Messier for Jagr's position.
Had Marty B a bit higher than the top 100 here. Same with Cyclone Taylor and Larry Robinson. Soviets weren't included on my initial top 50 but the plan was to always retroactively place them once I got done with my own top 100, which never came to pass for various reasons.
More or less nailed the glut of C's in the late 20's/early 30's. Got Glenn Hall exactly right. Sawchuk and Dryden I think will end up right next to one another, although a bit lower than I originally had them.
Glad to see Park getting downgraded a bit by some here. I think there are multiple Dmen that need to go in over him (Clancy, Pilote for sure). Same with Coffey, obviously.
I do think I was probably a bit bullish on Bathgate and maybe Mahovlich in retrospect but we'll see.
I did a pretty in depth HoH top 50 last year. I wanted to go back and see how it stacked up with this go and I'm pretty happy to say a lot of it is pretty close to what we have so far, minus Morenz, Jagr, Brodeur and Ovechkin (list was obviously done a year prior to their Cup win). Mikita was a bit lower in this and something I actually agree with given an even bigger look.
Nailed the too 10, top 5 in correct order with the 6-10 varying slightly.
Basically I flipped Messier for Jagr's position.
Had Marty B a bit higher than the top 100 here. Same with Cyclone Taylor and Larry Robinson. Soviets weren't included on my initial top 50 but the plan was to always retroactively place them once I got done with my own top 100, which never came to pass for various reasons.
More or less nailed the glut of C's in the late 20's/early 30's. Got Glenn Hall exactly right. Sawchuk and Dryden I think will end up right next to one another, although a bit lower than I originally had them.
Glad to see Park getting downgraded a bit by some here. I think there are multiple Dmen that need to go in over him (Clancy, Pilote for sure). Same with Coffey, obviously.
I do think I was probably a bit bullish on Bathgate and maybe Mahovlich in retrospect but we'll see.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
How much of their defense ranking was affected by garbage time points because the game was already well in hand...?
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
So since we're a 3rd of the way done, I wanted to do an overview of how I see the rankings thus far.
Again, massive thank you to @quoipourquoi for handling this thing. Wouldn't be possible without him.
1. Gretzky
-To be expected. Holds just about every offensive record known to man. Some by massive margins. Great regular, postseason and international resume. I had Orr #1, but this ranking isn't a surprise to 98% of people I'd wager.
2. Howe
-Jumps Orr. Hard to argue against it very much, even if I think Orr was the games greatest, most complete player. Howe was the game's greatest iron man. Kept up with NHL'ers until he was 51!!!
3. Orr
-See above.
4. Lemieux
-Has he ever not been in 4th?
5. Hull
-Usually in 5th. Again, hard to argue. Might have given Mario a run had he not left the NHL. Greatest goal scorer ever IMO.
6. Beliveau
-One of my favorite players who I didn't get the chance to see play. Probably the greatest captain the league ever saw. I personally would have flipped he and Harvey (6th and 8th) because I think Harvey was the engine for most of those Habs teams but again, 2 spots. Not going to kick up dust over that.
7. Roy
-Thank God. Best goalie ever needed to be in the top 10. I'd argue as high as #5 given his postseason resume and the advanced numbers bearing out he was often a very dominant goalie in the regular season as well.
8. Harvey
-To me, the only Dman that isn't light years behind Bobby Orr. I had him a few spots higher.
9. Richard
-I think his 50 in 50 is overrated somewhat because it came at the height of WWII and the league was greatly depleted in talent, but it's pretty hard to argue against Richard in the top 10 given his legendary goal scoring ability, his postseason dominance and the fact he did it all while under insane pressures from in and around Montreal, especially being the kid of a working class family, which meant a lot more then, than it does today.
10. Bourque
-Good spot. Only Howe has better longevity all time. Really underrated peak as well. His awards and postseason accolades are simply astounding. Had he enjoyed more team successes he'd be higher on this list, but the bulk of his career was played on the wrong team, during multiple dynasties.
11. Morenz
-First ranking I think is too high. Other's have more impressive regular and postseason credentials, C or otherwise. Some of his value seems to come from folk lore and I personally don't give that much credence. He underwhelmed me as a postseason player, especially somebody who played on a many, many top teams in the league at the time. Numbers don't match the reputation he had. Still, he's a top 20 player all time IMO, just not this high.
12. Crosby
-One spot higher than I originally had him. This is about right. Great peak (would have been elite if not for 2 crucial lost seasons due to injuries out of his control). Had he not lost 2011 and 2013 he'd easily be in the top 10. Continued longevity as a top player in the game 14 years later. Already 10th all time in playoff scoring before hitting 31. 7th i believe in PPG there. 3 Cups, 2 Smythes (1 was weaker). Stellar international acclaim. As Mike Babcock said once, "he's a serial winner". Couldn't describe him any better to this point.
13. Hasek
-Good spot for him. A lot like Bourque except Hasek is mostly peak, and it's an insanely good one in the regular season, but both needed to join elite teams late in their career to achieve team success. Had he played on better teams (they weren't bad, just usually a tier below the best or so) we're probably talking about him in the top 10.
14. Shore
-Pretty big drop. But probably warranted when you factor in the 2 goalies and Crosby making his way up and his dirty play often disadvantaging Boston in crunch time.
15. Lidstrom
-The most boring star that has played to date IMO. Other than a lack of a physical game, Lidstrom was about as letter perfect as you can get from a Dman, in all situations. His comp was a bit weaker than others but his post 30's career is absurd. Like seeing him up here.
16. Jagr
-Big jump. Completely disagree with it. But already hashed this out 1000 times.
17. Kelly
-One of the all time great multi positional players (the other being Dit Clapper who may be the best given he was a postseason AS multiple times at both D and W, but we'll ge to him later) Gave Doug Harvey a run for his money in the 50's. A little underwhelmed by his postseason career in Detroit but he really made up for that with his play at C for Toronto IMO)
.......................18-34 coming later this evening!
18. Potvin
-Solid placement for Potvin. IMO, maybe a few spots to high (I'd personally have Messier, Nighbor and Plante over him) but it's a fact he was the horse that led the Islander chariot. He was the OG of the Islander dynasty and boy was he good. Great 2 way play, leadership, elite toughness, generally showed up in big games.
19. Plante
-Pretty clearly the 3rd best goalie ever.
20. Nighbor
-Biggest riser from a decade back and completely warranted. He was the best, most complete hockey player in the game prior to the forward pass and consolidation. He was a good offensive player, an elite defensive C, and elite way more often than not when the playoffs rolled around. Love seeing him get his due.
21. Messier
-How Jagr finished above this guy is a bleeping joke to me. Messier won more Harts than Jagr, against stiffer comp, and was an actual 2 way F. He wasn't a blue chip prospect or high draft pick. Guy would go through a brick wall for you and in the postseason he was an easy top 5 player all time. I mean the guy called his shot in NY in 94 and delivered an epic, Ruth like response. Won a bunch of Cups, whether he was Robin to Gretzky's Batman, or when he was leading the Oilers himself after 99 got dealt. Could have easily won 3-4 Smythe's if not for 99 and a once in a lifetime Randford performance in 90.
22. Ovechkin
-New addition and for good reason. Pretty clearly the 2nd best goal scorer ever. Some will argue him 1st, especially if he wins another Rocket, and that seems like a strong possibility with how he's doing this year. His regular season resume would probably get him a bit higher here but he still needs to do more in the postseason. Finally got his Cup and a solid Smythe so he no longer has to duck the choker label. But still his postseason resume is pretty bare otherwise. The good news is the Caps finally slayed the Pens and proved they could do it. Can they do it again? If so, he'll be up alongside Sid.
23. Lafleur
-Maybe a few spots to high. I'm less bullish on wingers in general but he was the best pure talent on the 70's dynasty. Not much longevity but damn if his peak wasn't crazy good.
24. Mikita
-Dropped. Some new faces and more examination of his playoffs hurt him somewhat. Honestly I feel pretty comfortable with him around here now. Still a player I really liked studying and reading about. Small man, but so many said he was one of the toughest, pound for pound players the league saw at the time.
25. Fetisov
-I'd put him up higher, around Potvin, with both being around 20 or so. Greatest Soviet D by a mile. Almost always showed very well against Canada and the best teams in the world on the international circuit. Took a bit to get going in the NHL but he didn't look out of place, especially Detroit. But the transition to the NHL happened well after his prime and most early Soviets didn't exactly light the world on fire. Tough change in terms of how the game was played and the fact that the USSR and US/Canada were very, very different places.
26. Makarov
-It used to be Kharlamov that got all the attention but with more in depth study over the years that has changed. At least here in the West. Nice to see him up alongside Fetisov.
27. Esposito
-Dropped. Probably the right call. It's how I view players that were clearly benefiting from elite, all time players. In PE's case, it was Bobby Orr. Phil didn't do a lot of cycling, he wasn't a great skater. Orr drove those Bruin teams and Espo was the greatest slot player in the world. It was a deadly combo but his numbers need context. This is the right area for him IMO.
28. Hall
-Dropped. I think he, Plante and Brodeur should have all been closer together which means I would have liked to Hall and Marty inside the top 25. Great peak, incredible longevity. 551 straight games played is just unfathomable. Probably the most ridiculous record in hockey history.
29. Clarke
-Another guy who dropped, but again, you had big risers like Crosby, Nighbor and Ovechkin, Fetisov and Makarov. 10 years later this seems like a good area for BC.
30. Brodeur
-See Hall, Glenn. Brodeur's longevity is elite. He was better than his raw numbers indicate thanks to multiple studies done by HoH folks. Best puckhandling/moving goalie in history.
31. Trottier
-See Bobby Clarke. I'd have probably flipped he and Sakic but honestly, with all the new faces, it's not outlandish to see these guys fall a little bit.
32. Sakic
-Flip a coin with he, Clarke and Trottier.
33. Taylor
-Big riser and glad to see he is likely flipping positions with Lalonde who, like Morenz, seemed to get more miles of that Montreal bias. Taylor was a superstar who dominated the comp like few others have in hockey history.
34. Cook
-Big riser and nice to see him above Lindsay, and Bossy.
Appreciate the commentary. Would love to see more discussion/opinions of others on the rankings as we move along - i always enjoy that.
Sentinel
Registered User
Since we're doing 1/3 of the way evaluations, here are my short takes. I'm only going to put list players whose rankings I disagree with. "Overrated" and "underrated" means they are within 10 spots of where I place them, "very overrated" and "very underrated" are greater than 10 spots.
5. Hull. Overrated. Or, in the very least, should not be more than 5 spots higher than Ovechkin, especially given their relative teammates. If Ovechkin wins another Richard or Cup, he will overtake Hull in my book.
8. Harvey. Very overrated. Really had only Kelly to compete against for the "best d-man in the league" and played on a team of all-stars.
10. Bourque. Overrated, for reasons I have already stated many times.
11. Morenz. Overrated. His numbers in both RS and PO don't match his reputation.
13. Hasek. Very underrated. NHL just listed him as #1 goalie of all time, and I fully second that opinion. If anything, he should be within three spots of Roy.
17. Kelly. Very overrated. See "Harvey."
18. Potvin. A bit overrated. Sure, at the time he was viewed as bigger impact than Bossy and Trottier, but violence is not a big plus for me. Without the yet-unnamed Bossy he would win jack squat.
19. Plante. Very overrated. Backstopped one of two great teams in the league.
22. Ovechkin. Underrated. 17 spots between him and Hull borders on unjustifiable, given their achievements and linemates. I am looking forward to him winning more awards.
23. Lafleur. Underrated. Clearly the best forward on a dynasty who somehow doesn't get nearly the recognition of the 50s Habs.
26. Makarov. Very underrated. Matched Canadian stars (except Gretzky) pound for pound, while being a stellar two-way player. He is making ways in the minds of voters, which is good, but he still got ways to go. Needs to be in the Top 10.
27. Esposito. Underrated. Doesn't get nearly the same benefits that 50s Habs forwards do, while posting better stats than them.
28. Hall. Very overrated.
30. Brodeur. Overrated. I originally had him at #45, raised him since, but not to #30.
31. Trottier. Underrated. The Islanders dynasty doesn't get nearly as much credit as all others.
33. Taylor. Overrated.
34. Cook. Very overrated.
Obviously a few people who have not been placed yet are VERY underrated.
5. Hull. Overrated. Or, in the very least, should not be more than 5 spots higher than Ovechkin, especially given their relative teammates. If Ovechkin wins another Richard or Cup, he will overtake Hull in my book.
8. Harvey. Very overrated. Really had only Kelly to compete against for the "best d-man in the league" and played on a team of all-stars.
10. Bourque. Overrated, for reasons I have already stated many times.
11. Morenz. Overrated. His numbers in both RS and PO don't match his reputation.
13. Hasek. Very underrated. NHL just listed him as #1 goalie of all time, and I fully second that opinion. If anything, he should be within three spots of Roy.
17. Kelly. Very overrated. See "Harvey."
18. Potvin. A bit overrated. Sure, at the time he was viewed as bigger impact than Bossy and Trottier, but violence is not a big plus for me. Without the yet-unnamed Bossy he would win jack squat.
19. Plante. Very overrated. Backstopped one of two great teams in the league.
22. Ovechkin. Underrated. 17 spots between him and Hull borders on unjustifiable, given their achievements and linemates. I am looking forward to him winning more awards.
23. Lafleur. Underrated. Clearly the best forward on a dynasty who somehow doesn't get nearly the recognition of the 50s Habs.
26. Makarov. Very underrated. Matched Canadian stars (except Gretzky) pound for pound, while being a stellar two-way player. He is making ways in the minds of voters, which is good, but he still got ways to go. Needs to be in the Top 10.
27. Esposito. Underrated. Doesn't get nearly the same benefits that 50s Habs forwards do, while posting better stats than them.
28. Hall. Very overrated.
30. Brodeur. Overrated. I originally had him at #45, raised him since, but not to #30.
31. Trottier. Underrated. The Islanders dynasty doesn't get nearly as much credit as all others.
33. Taylor. Overrated.
34. Cook. Very overrated.
Obviously a few people who have not been placed yet are VERY underrated.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
T00 bad videos of a few 1968 and 1969 Canadiens vs Bruins games surfaced earlier this week.
See first hand how an aging Ralph Backstrom 3rd center on the 1959,60 and sixties Canadiens owned Phil Esposito in 1968 and 1969.
1969 Bruins vs Canadiens. Orr/Savard.
1968 Quarter finals game 3 Backstrom dominates Esposito in the 2nd period.
See first hand how an aging Ralph Backstrom 3rd center on the 1959,60 and sixties Canadiens owned Phil Esposito in 1968 and 1969.
1969 Bruins vs Canadiens. Orr/Savard.
1968 Quarter finals game 3 Backstrom dominates Esposito in the 2nd period.
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Hockey Outsider
Registered User
- Jan 16, 2005
- 9,496
- 15,810
Two quick comments on the list in the first post:
Are we sure Eddie Shore was born in the Northwest Territories? Fort Qu'Apelle is a town in southern Saskatchewan, about an hour away from Regina. I know that Wikipedia says Shore was born in the NWT but I'm fairly sure he's a Saskatchewan native.
Nitpicking, but should we list Ovechkin as LW/RW? He has three Richard trophies and three years as an all-star at RW. Not as clear-cut as Kelly or Messier, but might be worth showing him as dual position too.
Are we sure Eddie Shore was born in the Northwest Territories? Fort Qu'Apelle is a town in southern Saskatchewan, about an hour away from Regina. I know that Wikipedia says Shore was born in the NWT but I'm fairly sure he's a Saskatchewan native.
Nitpicking, but should we list Ovechkin as LW/RW? He has three Richard trophies and three years as an all-star at RW. Not as clear-cut as Kelly or Messier, but might be worth showing him as dual position too.
Kyle McMahon
Registered User
- May 10, 2006
- 13,456
- 4,638
Oh definitely. In fact, Ovechkin was magically able to play both wings simultaneously in 2013, according to the NHL.
Johnny Engine
Moderator
- Jul 29, 2009
- 5,054
- 2,489
I believe the Shore thing has already been covered in the thread - the designation North West Territories covered the area now called Saskatchewan at the time of Shore’s birth.
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