wetcoast
Registered User
- Nov 20, 2018
- 24,394
- 11,403
The thing is, we have two guys up for voting this round who played on perhaps the greatest 5 man unit ever. This is what they are famous for. Playing outside of that unit, none of those players seemed close to that good. But Esposito is being hammered for not being that good without Orr.
Now I have one of those former Soviet players going in this round, so I'm not belittling their talent. Just pointing out the huge double standard. I'd also like to know how many of the Esposito detractors ranked Orr number 1. Surely someone who can turn Espo into a superstar singlehandedly simply by being on the same team (not linemates, so not always on the ice together) has to be by far the greatest player ever.
I have a little bit of time here so I will address a couple of points on the Orr affect on Esposito.
Some have asserted that in 68 Phil had a great season before Orr was Orr and that's not entirely true.
In 66-67 with the Black Hawks Phil had a 69-21-40-61 line with 2 PPG and 8 PPP good for 4th in scoring on the Black Hawks as it appears Kenny Warhamm got the 3rd forward position on the PP to go along with Mikta and Hull (Phil's ES linemate). He also had 192 SOG.
In 67-68, 2 things change, more PP time and of course Bobby Orr.
Phil has a line of 74-38-49-84 with 8 PPG and 27 PPP. He had 284 SOG (3.83/game)
Orr finished with a line 46-11-21-34 and 3 PPG and 11 PPP. Orr had 173 SOG (3.76/ game)
What's more revealing is that Orr and Phil basically had the same SOG/game ratio which is one indicator of Bobby already driving the bus, although to be sure he would driver faster and harder in the following seasons.
In 74 games Phil was on the ice for 76 ESG and 37 PPGF
In 46 games Orr was on the ice for 71 ESG and 28 PPGF
So to be clear Phil in 28 more games was on the ice for exactly 5 more ESG and 9 PPGF
To me that's a pretty good indicator that Orr was already being Orr at that point.
In following years the trend would continue to grow which bring us to Orr's final years with the Black Hawks.
In 76-77 Orr played in 20 games for the Black Hawks and had a line of 20-4-19-23 +6 going 2-12 on the PP.
He was on the ice for 22 ESGF and 20 PPGF (the Black Hawks only scored 39 PPG in the 60 games Orr didn't play in).
And this is Orr after the injuries still dominantly driving the bus in games he played in for a poor Black Hawks team.
I think that the Orr affect is extremely clear and we need to look with a critical eye towards Esposito and his "peak."