Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 6

[Canadiens1958]

No matter what you believe Makarov actually has 2 Directorate Best Forward awards as the 1979 one was shared between 3 players. Team CCCP Players Info: Sergey MAKAROV (Сергей МАКАРОВ)

And as for the rest of your post I don't know why we would put that much value on trophy counting one award when Makarov has the strongest All-Star voting record among all forwards as well as having the strongest Izvestia Golden Stick voting record of all players and the strongest SPOTY voting record of all forwards. Should we just ignore all of that and focus on the trophy counting of one award? That does not seem like a very good way to analyze the career of a player to me.

Counterpoint to your phantom awards.

 

[Killion]

One Directorate Best Forward only and a three way tie? 1979 for another with Wilf Paiement of all players.

List of IIHF World Championship directorate award winners - Wikipedia

So within six seasons,1984 Canada Cup JohnTonelli MVP, 1979 Paiement and Mikhailov were seen as equal as equal to or superior to Makarov.

Given that Maltsev has three Directorate Best Forward Awards to Makarov having one,consideration of Makarov seems premature.

That links certainly interesting C58. I see in the first year, 1954; the Backup Goalie for the Senior B East York Lyndhursts representing Canada at the World Championships won the "Directorate Award". This was the first year the Soviets entered a team & they won the Championship. When the Lyndhursts returned to Leaside & given a bye to play in the Finals of the OHA governed East York Major League, they lost that game as well.... Does not speak very highly as to the overall quality of the players representing not just Canada but elsewhere until later on in that decade, through the 60's, 70's on up whereby you see a fabulous rise & increase in talents. The great Jiri Holecek, Jan Suchy & so on.

 

[Canadiens1958]

That links certainly interesting C58. I see in the first year, 1954; the Backup Goalie for the Senior B East York Lyndhursts representing Canada at the World Championships won the "Directorate Award". This was the first year the Soviets entered a team & they won the Championship. When the Lyndhursts returned to Leaside & given a bye to play in the Finals of the OHA governed East York Major League, they lost that game as well.... Does not speak very highly as to the overall quality of the players representing not just Canada but elsewhere until later on in that decade, through the 60's, 70's on up whereby you see a fabulous rise & increase in talents. The great Jiri Holecek, Jan Suchy & so on.

Nice to see my point and subpoints appreciated.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Esposito's best year came in 70-71 when there were 14 teams in the league (against the expansion Sabres the Bruins scored 36 goals in 6 games and against the Canucks they scored 35 goals in 6 games).

Looking at the league composition there were 345 skaters in the league of which 327 were Canadian born and bred players which is 94.78%.

That doesn't include a guy like Stan mikita who was Canadian bread and the early Swedish player to come to North America to play junior hockey in Juha Widing, who in 69-70 became the first mostly European trained player to have a full time contract in the NHL. In my research I also found out, sadly, that he died at age 37 of a heart attack.

Let's compare to Sakic's best season where he won the Hart in 2000-2001 when there were 884 skaters to play at least a game in the NHL of which 481 were Canadians which equates to 54.41%

Of course they were now 30 teams in the NHL in 00-01 but there were alot more players form other talent streams as well.

More importantly in 00-01 there were only 2 Canadians in the top 10 scoring that year and only 5 in the top 15.

Canada was still a great hockey nation producing as much talent, or even more than in 70-71 but obviously the claim that the concentration of talent in 70-71 wasn't that different than 00-01 doesn't hold true.

I'm pretty sure a similar trend can be found throughout Sakic's career.

Here is a list of the top scoring players in the NHL during Sakic's career

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Quite a different makeup from the guys on Phil's list

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

This is just one season though. An argument that Sakic's very best season was better than Esposito's is not difficult to make. But Esposito has a bunch of years that are within a stone's throw of his very best. 2001 is an outlier season for Sakic. And 1996 is a good measure better than his third-best year. This is actually quite applicable to those playoff years as well.

 

[wetcoast]

This is just one season though. An argument that Sakic's very best season was better than Esposito's is not difficult to make. But Esposito has a bunch of years that are within a stone's throw of his very best. 2001 is an outlier season for Sakic. And 1996 is a good measure better than his third-best year. This is actually quite applicable to those playoff years as well.

The comparison was more to the comment that both players had similar circumstances or competition, which clearly wasn't the case.

How one gauges those differences is up to them.

I think the case for Sakic is his very long an impressive prime both in the regular season and playoffs, not unlike Beliveau, although he obviously never reached the absolute peak that Jean did.

But both players had very long and productive careers over an extended period of time.

Esposito's career looks more like a version of Bernie Nicholls (not stylistically but productive offense only type of players) if he had played with Wayne for 8 seasons.

I think the Orr effect is quite high.

Good post on Taylor BTW but I'm still not sure where to place him.

 

[DitchMarner]

This is very rudimentary, but is this a fair break down of Sakic versus Esposito?

Best season between them: Sakic (2001)?

Better prime: Esposito

Better longevity as an elite/very good player: Sakic

Playoffs: Sakic

Defense: Sakic


Sakic may have the advantage in most of these categories, but if you think Esposito's best five to seven seasons are considerably better or much better, I can understand the decision to put him above Joe.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Esposito's career looks more like a version of Bernie Nicholls (not stylistically but productive offense only type of players) if he had played with Wayne for 8 seasons.
.

That is not even close to fair.

Bernier Nicholls never had a Summit Series-like performance. Bernier Nicholls didn't come close to challenging Wayne (or anyone else) for Hart, Person, or AS votes. Esposito did to Orr.

 

[Captain Bowie]

This is very rudimentary, but is this a fair break down of Sakic versus Esposito?

Best season between them: Sakic (2001)?

I'd say Phil's record setting 70/71.

 

[wetcoast]

That is not even close to fair.

Bernier Nicholls never had a Summit Series-like performance. Bernier Nicholls didn't come close to challenging Wayne (or anyone else) for Hart, Person, or AS votes. Esposito did to Orr.

Sure but Orr was a defenseman and his impact was at both ends, Gretzky was a purely offensive player.

The summit series really gets overblown by many Canadians, the Russians were not equipped to handle a big center like Phil.

Nichols also had some success without playing with guys like Orr and Bobby Hull.

If nichols had played 8 years with Wayne we would be talking about him on this list no doubt.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Sure but Orr was a defenseman and his impact was at both ends, Gretzky was a purely offensive player.

The summit series really gets overblown by many Canadians, the Russians were not equipped to handle a big center like Phil.

Nichols also had some success without playing with guys like Orr and Bobby Hull.

If nichols had played 8 years with Wayne we would be talking about him on this list no doubt.

Like when? His highest scoring finish was 13th before partnering up with Wayner for a few years. Espo finished 2nd in '68 when Orr played 46 games and wasn't even "BOBBY ORR" yet, which was his 3rd top 10 scoring finish.

And why wouldn't Phil be given some credit for having a skillset the opposition was not able to contain?

 

[seventieslord]

When I try to copy and paste a table from nhl.com into excel, it never spits it nicely into columns like it would if I was copying from hockey-reference. I'm sure this is deliberate on their part. has anyone found a way to get around this?

 

[sr edler]

I had Clarke #1 and Taylor in my top 5.

 

[sr edler]

When I try to copy and paste a table from nhl.com into excel, it never spits it nicely into columns like it would if I was copying from hockey-reference. I'm sure this is deliberate on their part. has anyone found a way to get around this?

I abandoned nhl.com years ago. I can see the board meeting where G. Bettman himself raises the point of "underground competing statisticians" and "advanced stats geeks" stealing and profiting on their precious material, and how they have to protect "the integrity of our leagues history" or something like that.

 

[VMBM]

So within six seasons,1984 Canada Cup JohnTonelli MVP, 1979 Paiement and Mikhailov were seen as equal as equal to or superior to Makarov.

Considering that Makarov and Mikhailov (along with Petrov) were also named to the media All-Star Team (Championnats du monde de hockey sur glace 1979) and Paiement wasn't, I feel pretty confident that both Makarov and Mikhailov were superior to Paiement in 1979. Whether Mikhailov or Makarov was the best forward, who can tell?

Given that Maltsev has three Directorate Best Forward Awards to Makarov having one,consideration of Makarov seems premature.

Then you'd also agree that Vladislav Tretiak should not appear before Jiri Holecek, right? (Holecek has 5 Best Goalie awards to Tretiak's 3.) No?

There should be a 'few' more criteria than that, like their play in best-on-best tournaments, performances against top opposition, domestic play and award voting...

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

So let me see if I got this right. I'm just reading between the lines here, but it seems as if you're saying that Bernie Parent may have been the most valuable to his team in '74. Don't mince your words, give it to me straight.

If that's what you're saying (and I won't disagree... in keeping with my appreciation of great peaks, I had Parent 120th on my list of the top 120, based on the best two years of goaltending I had ever seen.

But... if the league wasn't appreciating goaltenders for the Hart in the '70's, then Clarke made a lot of sense as most VALUABLE over better players like Orr, Espo and Lafleur.

It's a little off-topic-- but yeah, for the 1973-74 season, Parent was the best player on his team AND most valuable to his team. Some people on the scene recognized that they were looking at history- Parent was runner-up in the Hart voting. [Esposito won his last Hart (as a 31-year-old) that year.]

To keep things topical, let me add this tidbit from yesteryear, since it's pertinent to this round:

Yeah- one can credit Clarke for his courage, sure... but his is the courage of the Little Brother who always had four Big Brothers within 30 yards of wherever he was.

 

[blogofmike]

When I try to copy and paste a table from nhl.com into excel, it never spits it nicely into columns like it would if I was copying from hockey-reference. I'm sure this is deliberate on their part. has anyone found a way to get around this?

Since the scraping theead didn't work, you may have to play with the INDEX function like your low tech buddy Mike.

I care not for these plus minus things, but if it's giving you all the info in one column when you paste, delete the top columns until the number 1 appears.

Row 1 looks like this:

1
Wayne Gretzky
1984-85
EDM
C
18
17
30
47
59
23
12
3
27
21
6
In cell B2, paste the following formula

=INDEX($A:$A,ROW(A1)*16-16+COLUMN(A1))

Drag the formula right to Column Q
Highlight B2:Q2 and Drag down for as many records as you pasted.

End result is:
1 Wayne Gretzky 1984-85 EDM C 18 17 30 47 59 23 12 3 27 21 6
2 Bobby Orr 1969-70 BOS D 14 9 11 20 49 19 14 8 24 14 10
3 Paul Coffey 1984-85 EDM D 18 12 25 37 54 23 12 4 23 21 2
4 Jari Kurri 1984-85 EDM R 18 19 12 31 47 23 8 7 23 21 2
5 Larry Robinson 1977-78 MTL D 15 4 17 21 44 13 14 4 21 11 10
6 Serge Savard 1977-78 MTL D 15 1 7 8 34 13 5 5 21 9 12
7 Andre Dupont 1979-80 PHI D 19 0 4 4 29 18 0 10 21 16 5
8 Dallas Smith 1971-72 BOS D 15 0 4 4 30 17 0 8 21 12 9
9 Charlie Huddy 1984-85 EDM D 18 3 17 20 51 21 12 3 21 20 1
10 Guy Lafleur 1976-77 MTL R 14 9 17 26 33 5 8 0 20 12 8
11 Wayne Gretzky 1982-83 EDM C 16 12 26 38 46 23 10 7 20 15 5
12 Bobby Orr 1971-72 BOS D 15 5 19 24 45 15 18 8 20 11 9
13 Ken Morrow 1980-81 NYI D 18 3 4 7 27 19 0 12 20 8 12
14 Denis Potvin 1982-83 NYI D 20 8 12 20 52 19 20 7 20 13 7
15 Nathan Horton 2012-13 BOS R 22 7 12 19 38 12 6 0 20 11 9
16 Bob Bourne 1982-83 NYI C 20 8 20 28 36 14 7 4 19 12 7
17 Chris Chelios 1991-92 CHI D 18 6 15 21 40 18 10 7 19 9 10
18 Don Awrey 1969-70 BOS D 14 0 5 5 30 18 0 7 19 14 5
19 Brian Leetch 1993-94 NYR D 23 11 23 34 60 28 19 6 19 7 12
20 Wayne Gretzky 1983-84 EDM C 19 13 22 35 49 26 13 8 18 17 1
21 Ken Morrow 1982-83 NYI D 19 5 7 12 37 25 0 6 18 13 5
22 Paul Coffey 1983-84 EDM D 19 8 14 22 53 24 17 6 18 18 0
23 Steve Shutt 1976-77 MTL L 14 8 10 18 30 5 7 0 18 10 8
24 Charlie Huddy 1983-84 EDM D 12 1 9 10 31 10 5 2 18 17 1
25 Bryan Trottier 1980-81 NYI C 18 11 18 29 45 11 22 6 18 11 7
26 Brent Sutter 1982-83 NYI C 20 10 11 21 29 5 6 0 18 11 7
27 Randy Gregg 1984-85 EDM D 17 0 6 6 31 15 3 5 18 11 7
28 Denis Potvin 1980-81 NYI D 18 8 17 25 55 19 30 12 18 10 8
29 Mike Busniuk 1979-80 PHI D 19 2 4 6 25 14 0 6 17 12 5
30 Danny Markov 37712 PHI D 18 1 2 3 22 11 0 6 17 12 5
31 Rick MacLeish 1974-75 PHI C 17 11 9 20 29 9 8 5 17 9 8
32 Larry Murphy 1990-91 PIT D 23 5 18 23 55 18 23 3 17 11 6
33 Daniel Cleary 39692 DET R 23 9 6 15 22 11 0 6 17 15 2
34 Jeff Beukeboom 1993-94 NYR D 22 0 6 6 30 15 1 3 17 6 11
35 Joe Mullen 1990-91 PIT R 22 8 9 17 28 9 6 4 17 9 8
36 Carol Vadnais 1978-79 NYR D 18 2 9 11 34 23 2 8 17 9 8
37 Randy Gregg 1987-88 EDM D 19 1 8 9 32 21 4 10 17 12 5
38 Larry Murphy 1996-97 DET D 20 2 9 11 27 9 5 3 16 13 3
39 Duncan Keith 2014-15 CHI D 23 3 18 21 46 26 10 6 16 17 -1
40 Dustin Brown 40878 LAK R 20 8 12 20 29 7 8 2 16 6 10
41 Anze Kopitar 40878 LAK C 20 8 12 20 28 7 7 2 16 6 10
42 Ed Van Impe 1974-75 PHI D 17 0 4 4 19 9 0 6 16 12 4
43 Zdeno Chara 40483 BOS D 24 2 7 9 39 25 7 9 16 12 4
44 Steve Smith 1987-88 EDM D 19 1 11 12 41 24 12 11 16 12 4
45 Henrik Zetterberg 39295 DET C 22 13 14 27 35 13 12 6 16 4 12
46 Jimmy Watson 1974-75 PHI D 17 1 8 9 23 11 2 6 16 12 4
47 Jari Kurri 1982-83 EDM R 16 8 15 23 39 21 9 7 16 13 3
48 Duane Sutter 1982-83 NYI R 20 9 12 21 29 7 6 0 16 11 5
49 Phil Esposito 1971-72 BOS C 15 9 15 24 40 8 18 2 16 11 5
50 Larry Robinson 1978-79 MTL D 16 6 9 15 40 18 10 4 16 13 3
51 Niklas Kronwall 39295 DET D 22 0 15 15 32 10 7 1 16 10 6
52 Ray Bourque 1987-88 BOS D 23 3 18 21 49 32 13 12 16 10 6
53 Jimmy Watson 1979-80 PHI D 15 0 4 4 20 10 0 6 16 11 5
54 Doug Gilmour 1992-93 TOR C 21 10 25 35 46 23 17 10 16 12 4
55 Brad Stuart 39295 DET D 21 1 6 7 22 12 0 5 15 12 3
56 Ray Bourque 1982-83 BOS D 17 8 15 23 41 28 9 11 15 12 3
57 Petr Sykora 36526 NJD R 25 10 12 22 35 12 13 5 15 8 7
58 Jari Kurri 1987-88 EDM R 19 14 17 31 52 16 26 5 15 7 8
59 Wendel Clark 1992-93 TOR L 21 10 10 20 29 11 3 0 15 6 9
60 Paul Coffey 1982-83 EDM D 16 7 7 14 38 14 11 2 15 8 7
61 Steve Smith 1989-90 EDM D 22 5 10 15 45 21 14 5 15 10 5
62 Serge Savard 1975-76 MTL D 13 3 6 9 27 17 4 9 15 13 2
63 Paul Holmgren 1979-80 PHI R 18 10 10 20 27 5 8 1 15 12 3
64 Randy Gregg 1983-84 EDM D 19 3 7 10 36 25 8 12 15 10 5
65 Chris Chelios 36923 DET D 23 1 13 14 32 24 5 12 15 7 8
66 Patrice Bergeron 40483 BOS C 23 6 14 20 29 14 3 3 15 7 8
67 Mark Howe 1986-87 PHI D 26 2 10 12 46 34 11 14 15 7 8
68 Larry Robinson 1976-77 MTL D 14 2 10 12 29 10 7 2 14 8 6
69 Andre Dupont 1975-76 PHI D 15 2 2 4 25 15 5 9 14 9 5
70 Reggie Leach 1975-76 PHI R 16 19 5 24 31 7 10 0 14 13 1
71 Henrik Tallinder 38504 BUF D 14 2 6 8 18 10 0 6 14 3 11
72 Gord Lane 1981-82 NYI D 19 0 4 4 22 10 0 2 14 11 3
73 Randy Gregg 1982-83 EDM D 16 2 4 6 18 14 0 10 14 9 5
74 Scott Stevens 37316 NJD D 24 3 6 9 25 12 3 4 14 6 8
75 Todd Marchant 38504 ANA C 16 3 10 13 20 9 0 3 14 -1 15
76 Chris Therien 1996-97 PHI D 19 1 6 7 24 18 0 8 14 4 10
77 Bill White 1970-71 CHI D 18 1 4 5 28 23 0 9 14 7 7
78 Billy Carroll 1980-81 NYI C 18 3 9 12 17 9 0 6 14 7 7
79 Marc-Edouard Vlasic 2015-16 SJS D 24 1 11 12 33 18 5 4 14 8 6
80 Filip Forsberg 2016-17 NSH L 22 9 7 16 29 13 5 3 14 15 -1
81 Mark Howe 1988-89 PHI D 19 0 15 15 44 31 17 18 14 1 13
82 Guy Lapointe 1972-73 MTL D 17 6 7 13 41 26 11 10 14 9 5
83 Mike Bossy 1980-81 NYI R 18 17 18 35 42 3 25 0 14 8 6
84 J.C. Tremblay 1967-68 MTL D 13 3 6 9 31 19 4 6 14 8 6
85 Kevin Stevens 1990-91 PIT L 24 17 16 33 47 14 20 1 14 8 6
86 Mark Messier 1993-94 NYR C 23 12 18 30 44 16 16 2 14 6 8
87 Rick Zombo 1987-88 DET D 16 0 6 6 23 14 2 7 14 8 6
88 Mark Messier 1984-85 EDM C 18 12 13 25 35 23 6 8 14 5 9
89 Yvan Cournoyer 1970-71 MTL R 20 10 12 22 39 11 14 0 14 11 3
90 Toni Lydman 38504 BUF D 18 1 4 5 22 15 0 7 14 3 11
91 Charlie Huddy 1982-83 EDM D 15 1 6 7 34 13 9 2 14 9 5
92 Mario Lemieux 1990-91 PIT C 23 16 28 44 52 26 20 8 14 5 9
93 Pierre Bouchard 1972-73 MTL D 17 1 3 4 21 8 0 1 14 6 8
94 Doug Brown 1994-95 DET R 18 4 8 12 17 7 1 5 14 9 5
95 Kevin McClelland 1983-84 EDM R 18 4 6 10 16 3 0 1 14 10 4
96 Johan Franzen 39295 DET R 16 13 5 18 25 8 7 3 13 7 6
97 Jari Kurri 1989-90 EDM R 22 10 15 25 37 20 10 6 13 7 6
98 Al Langlois 1959-60 MTL D 8 0 3 3 15 2 0 0 13 4 9
99 Ken Linseman 1979-80 PHI C 17 4 18 22 28 9 8 2 13 11 2
100 Borje Salming 1985-86 TOR D 10 1 6 7 31 11 11 4 13 5 8

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

...this board has already determined that Potvin was the straw that stirred the Islanders drink.

All right, Potvin has been judged primus inter pares, and I agree (although I think we went just a wee bit too high on Potvin)- but we're talking about the most renowned Dynasty Triumvirate of Skaters this side of Béliveau- Harvey- M. Richard. As a group, the Islanders trio strikes me as more pares than (one person being) primus.

Thing about Trottier is that he competes on all the tables. he doesn't have the offense of Esposito. He doesn't have the defense of Clarke. He doesn't have the extended prime of Sakic. He doesn't have the Playoffs of... no- check that, he doesn't back up to the window in comparison to anybody here as far as Playoffs.

As a total sum, he's impossible to ignore- or, at least, should be. I sure won't.

Edit: Voted just now. Had a late change-of-heart between two and three.

Wouldn't have anticipated that I'd be typing the names of Mike Bossy & Terry Sawchuk on my ballot (even if in the lower half) THIS early in the process. But- it's that whole intellectual-honesty thing. We contrast players to other players on offer- regardless of our perspectives concerning the un-nominated.

 

[VMBM]

The summit series really gets overblown by many Canadians, the Russians were not equipped to handle a big center like Phil.

The Canadians couldn't handle Aleksandr Yakushev very well either. And it's not like the NHL dmen had Espo's number.

The Summit Series might be some kind of peak in Esposito's career, but was he really much more exceptional than he was in the Bruins? I think his scoring numbers (goals equalled by Yakushev and Henderson, BTW) in the series pretty much match his scoring in the NHL.

 

[blogofmike]

All right, Potvin has been judged primus inter pares, and I agree (although I think we went just a wee bit too high on Potvin)- but we're talking about the most renowned Dynasty Triumvirate of Skaters this side of Béliveau- Harvey- M. Richard. As a group, the Islanders trio strikes me as more pares than (one person being) primus.

Thing about Trottier is that he competes on all the tables. he doesn't have the offense of Esposito. He doesn't have the defense of Clarke. He doesn't have the extended prime of Sakic. He doesn't have the Playoffs of... no- check that, he doesn't back up to the window in comparison to anybody here as far as Playoffs.

As a total sum, he's impossible to ignore- or, at least, should be. I sure won't.

Outside of the dynasty years, Trottier has no notable playoff performances.

Sakic has good playoff years all over his career. In 1996 and 1997, his 2 year run (59 points in 39 games) is as strong as Trottier's best 2 years (58 in 39 from 80-81). And that's UNADJUSTED.

Trottier is very strong over a 4-year span, and is never a PPG player in the playoffs outside of that, in spite of being in a good era to pile up points. While it is a debate as to who was best in the dynasty, once it ended, it's pretty clear that Bossy was the one who did the most to get back. He's still the Isles leading playoff scorer in the post 1983 Finals period.

 

[blogofmike]

The Canadians couldn't handle Aleksandr Yakushev very well either. And it's not like the NHL dmen had Espo's number.

The Summit Series might be some kind of peak in Esposito's career, but was he really much more exceptional than he was in the Bruins? I think his scoring numbers (goals equalled by Yakushev and Henderson, BTW) in the series pretty much match his scoring in the NHL.

It probably has more to do with Esposito being the top guy, as opposed to someone perceived to be tagging along with Bobby Hull or Bobby Orr.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Outside of the dynasty years, Trottier has no notable playoff performances.

Sakic has good playoff years all over his career.

Better Fifty Years of Europe than a Cycle of Cathay. Alfred, Lord Tennyson

 

[VMBM]

It probably has more to do with Esposito being the top guy, as opposed to someone perceived to be tagging along with Bobby Hull or Bobby Orr.

Was it just about Orr, or was it more like the whole Boston Bruins and their style of play (e.g. a guy like Cashman digging pucks for him) that helped Esposito?

Anyway, I'm not quite as high on Esposito's performance in 1972 as most people. Okay, he was arguably the best and most important player on the team that won the tournament, but he had his problems too. For example, when he was line-matched vs Vladimir Shadrin's line (with Yakushev and mostly Anisin) in Moscow, he did rather poorly, as I observed in my thread on the excellent performance by Shadrin's line in Moscow. I don't think Esposito was so good in 1972 that he wouldn't have had equally good performances and sometimes without Orr in Boston too.

 

[blogofmike]

Sakic spent a fair bit of time in "Europe" too, with Smythe-calibre runs in 1996 and 2001 (without Forsberg for the back 9). The 2002 Olympics/2004 World Cup would also qualify.

 

[MXD]

Will vote shortly.
For the first time so far, I'll drop one player from the previous round.

 

[wetcoast]

Like when? His highest scoring finish was 13th before partnering up with Wayner for a few years. Espo finished 2nd in '68 when Orr played 46 games and wasn't even "BOBBY ORR" yet, which was his 3rd top 10 scoring finish.

And why wouldn't Phil be given some credit for having a skillset the opposition was not able to contain?

If we take Wayne, Orr and Hull out of the equation Nicholls 13th place trumps anything Phil did.

In 68 Bobby Orr was already Bobby Orr in ESG in being on the ice, although it took till the next year to translate into the Bobby Orr in traditional G-A-P.

I have no problem saying that Phil had a good skillset for the era but much of his success and being in consideration is Orr related IMO.

It takes more than a skillset to be on this list just ask Kent Nilsson.

I think Phil belongs on this list but he just isn't a top 50 guy for me.

Too much of his case rests simplay on counting stats and alot of ignoring some really obvious red flags like Orr, playoffs in Chicago and basically outside of 3 Orr related runs and the level of competition of the NHL in the 70's with watered down competition and a huge imbalance of the haves and have nots.