Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 6

bobholly39

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Mar 10, 2013
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Yeah, if you're looking at "solid career" over "who was the better player". I don't see how health or longevity has anything to do with excellence. Peak shows excellence.

This project isn't just about peak though. It's about everything. Enough longevity (especially elite longevity) can overtake better peak.

Sakic > McDavid

Doesn't mean some people here aren't pushing that way too far. Such as with Esposito. Esposito >> Sakic for me - longevity isn't enough to flip it.
 

DannyGallivan

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This project isn't just about peak though. It's about everything. Enough longevity (especially elite longevity) can overtake better peak.

Sakic > McDavid

Doesn't mean some people here aren't pushing that way too far. Such as with Esposito. Esposito >> Sakic for me - longevity isn't enough to flip it.
Seems that for some, it's more about longevity... which I don't necessarily follow. Longevity can be on the criteria list, but I would give it less value than peak. Whatever... Q should make it a rule that whenever there's a debate between Peak vs Longevity, both members must take a drink.
 

MXD

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I think,here, that the issue is mostly that the peak isn't as good as it looks, as opposed to a typical peak vs. longevity debate.

(It works even worse for Terry Sawchuk too)
 

quoipourquoi

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Isn't wondering why Sakic should rank over Forsberg like wondering why we ranked Lidstrom over Pronger?

There is value to health, consistency, and longevity as an elite player.

I think the key difference is that there is more balance in terms of actual awards distribution in the example of the former (3-0 vs. 3-0 in All-Star selections). More than that, I think when much is made about the weakness of the top-level forwards in that 2000-2004 time frame, Sakic’s 1st Team selections in 2001-02 (79 points) and 2003-04 (87 points) are probably examples of exactly that.

Having said that, those accolades in 2002 and 2004 when he wasn’t even a top-5 per-game scorer make up for being somewhat ignored in 1996, 1999, and 2000 when he was.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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I think the key difference is that there is more balance in terms of actual awards distribution in the example of the former (3-0 vs. 3-0 in All-Star selections). More than that, I think when much is made about the weakness of the top-level forwards in that 2000-2004 time frame, Sakic’s 1st Team selections in 2001-02 (79 points) and 2003-04 (87 points) are probably examples of exactly that.

Having said that, those accolades in 2002 and 2004 when he wasn’t even a top-5 per-game scorer make up for being somewhat ignored in 1996, 1999, and 2000 when he was.

Yes, the gap between Sakic and Forsberg is smaller than between Lidstrom and Pronger... or between Jagr and McDavid.

But if all someone cares about is peak...
 

vadim sharifijanov

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1. I've appreciated more the puck protection, puck possession style and puck recovery physical hounddog style of Petr.
2. As a Canucks fan I am required to complain about Forsberg (it's in our constitution - ask a longterm Canucks fan if you don't understand).
3. I loved Burnaby Joe early in his career in Quebec because I was born in Burnaby, am the same age as him, grew up on the same street and honestly believe (with about 70 percent certainty if pressed) that he was that kid from my kindergarten class who didn't speak English and had a weird smile (thanks to his Croat parents). He took my dark blue crayon!

i am 80% sure i saw him on the 49 bus when i got on at the langara stop in the summer of 1990. i was 8/9 and in ymca daycamp.

why would joe sakic be taking the bus? he wasn’t a millionaire yet i think but he was already a very rich young man. that bus was, to be fair, going west from burnaby. but i swear it was him. i had his helmetless opc rookie card, i know that face.
 

wetcoast

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Isn't wondering why Sakic should rank over Forsberg like wondering why we ranked Lidstrom over Pronger?

There is value to health, consistency, and longevity as an elite player.

I agree with your 2nd point but not sure the Pronger/Lidstrom is the best comparable for various reasons.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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i am 80% sure i saw him on the 49 bus when i got on at the langara stop in the summer of 1990. i was 8/9 and in ymca daycamp.

why would joe sakic be taking the bus? he wasn’t a millionaire yet i think but he was already a very rich young man. that bus was, to be fair, going west from burnaby. but i swear it was him. i had his helmetless opc rookie card, i know that face.

Didn't a couple of Capitals millionaires take the subway to one of the Caps playoff games last season?
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Didn't a couple of Capitals millionaires take the subway to one of the Caps playoff games last season?

you clearly have never taken an east-west vancouver bus on a non-express line.

dave andreychuk used to take the subway to the gardens when he played for the leafs.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Yeah I honestly don't get it. I get that there's a feeling by some that scoring isn't everything, and that playoffs matter a lot (not that Espo is bad here, he's pretty solid imo), and I get that Orr helped him (but he helped Orr a ton too - this is given way too much importance imo) - but at some point 5 scoring championships, and breaking all of the offensive records (by a lot) has to matter more than the competition he's up against.

He was at the top of the league, very significantly so - for many years. Who else in this round can say that? Most others have maybe 1-2 years of greatness with some solid longevity, playoffs, etc...but no one has his dominant stretch.

He's my #1 in this round. I love someone like Joe Sakic - but Espo is simply a tier above to me.

No one voted into this project so far has come CLOSE to being impacted as greatly as Espo has in voting because he was helped by team/teammate. The 50s Canadiens may be nowhere near this list if they didn't have each other and great teams. Why is it such a big deal that Orr and Espo brought the best out of each other? It should be a positive, not this huge negative.

agree. if abel/delvecchio won 2 out of 4 art rosses between 1951 and 1954 and stole a hart, i’d have voted for that hypothetical player by this point too.

but those players, while great, were not phil esposito offensively.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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you clearly have never taken an east-west vancouver bus on a non-express line.

dave andreychuk used to take the subway to the gardens when he played for the leafs.

That is correct.

But I did take the subway back to Grand Central from the old Yankee Stadium after a day game in August. It was a rough ride as a kid, being at armpit level with all the adults.
 
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Kyle McMahon

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Cyclone Taylor

A run-down of Cyclone Taylor's career to help us place him among this group. He played in several major professional leagues over a career that spanned about 15 years.

Taylor was considered a star right from the get-go, and was one of the first openly professional players. He first signed with Houghton-Portage Lakes of the IPHL in 1906 after garnering interest from several clubs. The US-based IPHL was the first openly professional hockey league in North America. Many early Hall of Famers played in this league, including Hod Stuart, Didier Pitre, Joe Hall, Bruce Stuart, and Newsy Lalonde, so this was by no means some backwoods circuit. These teams probably could have competed for the Stanley Cup no problem. Taylor was tried as a forward initially, but was too fast for his linemates to keep up and was moved to point (defense). He scored 29 goals in 29 games spread over one and a half seasons. This places him behind the Hall of Fame forwards in the league, but not significantly so. His team won the league both years.

He returned to Canada for 1908 after the IPHL folded. Similarly, he was tried at C but moved back after one game because his wingers couldn't keep up. The Trail of the Stanley Cup describes his play as sensational in this season, and it seems reasonably probable that he'd have been the Norris winner had such an award existed at the time.

The next four years are surprisingly lacking in specific examples of praise. Taylor played another year with Ottawa, then two with the infamous Renfrew Millionaires. Ottawa won the league in 1909 and the Stanley Cup passed to them. Marty Walsh was unstoppable with 38 goals for Ottawa that year and was possibly (probably?) their MVP. Renfrew did make Taylor the highest paid athlete in Canada when they paid him over $5000 for his services in 1910. The lines are a little blurred here. Taylor is generally described as a star player, but not necessarily more than the other prominent HOFers he played with and against. But he could certainly sell tickets with his flamboyant skills, and was paid accordingly. I can't really go any further than saying he equates to "Norris contender" in modern terms. Renfrew didn't win the league in either 1910 or 1911, despite their huge payroll. 1912 saw him play just one game after he decided to pull the plug after Ottawa and the Wanderers couldn't settle a dispute over who held his rights after Renfrew folded. This was the end of his career as a defenseman.

It was off the PCHA in 1913 where he played rover and later center. His first season was fairly non-descript. He did tie for the league lead in assists though.

1914-1919 are where Taylor really makes his hay as an elite scorer.

1914: Comfortably finished 1st in points and assists, also tying for the league lead in goals. The PCHA doesn't appear overly strong this year in terms of "star power" though.

1915: Taylor again won the PCHA scoring title, and had double the assist total of the second place finisher in that category. Tied for 2nd in goals scored. The league was stronger this year, with Nighbor and Mickey Mackay joining. Both played for Vancouver with Taylor, and the three of them ran roughshod over Ottawa in the Stanley Cup challenge series.

1916: Another 1st place finish on the points and assists leaderboards. 2nd place in goals. Nighbor went back east and Vancouver wasn't as strong this year, finishing 9-9. The NHA appears stronger this year, though Montreal only defeated Portland by the slimmest of margins in the SC Challenge.

1917: Taylor missed half the year injured. His scoring pace this season is in line with the previous and following years. This injury likely cost Vancouver a good shot at another Stanley Cup. They finished just behind Seattle in the standings, after going 5-5 without Cyclone (they were 9-4 with him). Seattle went on to win the Stanley Cup.

1918: Taylor once again ran away with the scoring title, though this time on the strength of his goal total, which led the league by a large margin. Some PCHA players were gone to war in this season, but the leaderboard is still a pretty strong one. Taylor and Mickey Mackay were superb in the SC series, which saw Vancouver narrowly defeated by Toronto 3-2 in games. Taylor scored 9 goals in the five games, though it was stated that some Eastern observers thought Mackay to be the greater player at this point (Taylor was nearing 34 years old at this point).

1919: Cyclone's last great year. First place in goals, assists, and points. The PCHA had a two-game playoff to determine the SC representative, and his play in the second game specifically was praised. Vancouver was defeated however, unable to overcome the loss of Mackay, whose jaw was broken late in the season.

Taylor was injured in the 1920 season and never really rebounded. He was used mostly as a substitute after returning, and played one more season, but likewise was just a sub at this point.

---

I think Taylor is in the conversation for a top 5 vote in this round, but I'd stop short of calling it a certainty.

-I believe his peak value as a scorer to be comparable to Esposito. We have questions about the Orr effect on Phil, and we have questions about where Taylor would have placed in a consolidated league. Cyclone probably contends for 5 Art Ross Trophies, perhaps winning a couple. Esposito was clearly a better goal scorer though. Taylor's days as a defenseman probably trump Esposito's Blackhawks/Rangers years, though I do think we're selling Phil's Chicago career a little short.

-The parallel between Taylor and Makarov is easy to draw. Both were impressive scorers in a league that didn't have all the top talent (more extreme in Makarov's case), but both demonstrated that ability in games/series against the best from the other league. There seems to be no doubt at all that both would have been among the very best players in a fully consolidated league.

-Sakic's longevity as an elite player can't overcome Taylor's peak value in my books. Sakic has a couple Art Ross runner-ups, and I feel Taylor at the very least would have matched this in a consolidated league. Taylor was simply regarded as a greater star in his time than Sakic was in his.

-I find Bossy and Trottier are tougher to place, since their case rests heavily on great playoffs during the dynasty years. Lengthy playoffs just plain didn't exist in Taylor's day. I think Cyclone's versatility (excelled at two positions) is enough to push him over Bossy, who he also beats out in a longevity argument. But Trottier was a well-rounded player himself. This is an example where "gut feel" might come into play for me. If you believe that Taylor's "star power" was more sizzle than substance, you might lean Trottier here. If you take the contemporary accounts at closer to face value, I think Taylor gets the nod.

-Your opinion of Clarke versus Taylor is probably going to be closely aligned with your opinion of Clarke versus Esposito. Vastly different styles here. Clarke was seemingly as great defensively as Taylor was offensively during their respective primes (as a forward in Taylor's case). Clarke's off-peak years also seem fairly even with Taylor's 1908-1911 defenseman seasons. Do Taylor's very early years make the difference here? He was a star from the moment he set foot on the ice, while Clarke took a few years to reach elite status.
 
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The Panther

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I would rank Forsberg as a better player, head to head, than Sakic. I feel pretty confident in that. (Not a lot better, but better.)

But Sakic clearly had better longevity and was arguably the best clutch playoff goal scorer ever.

For this kind of exercise, I can see why some will rank Sakic higher. I wouldn't criticize anyone for making that distinction, even though I think Forsberg was better at their respective bests.

It's actually a bit like Lindros vs. Forsberg, wherein the players are very even but most rank one higher because he maintained the prime level longer and won more.
 
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blogofmike

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I am leaning Fetisov over Makarov.

Here are how Fetisov and Makarov did in various World Championships, Olympics, and Canada Cups:

YearEventMakarov PtsRankFetisov PtsRankSM ASTVF ASTTop ForwardTop Defenseman
1978IIHF World Championship5/1013ASTMarcel DionneSlava Fetisov
1979IIHF World Championship123//ASTWilf PaiementValeri Vasiliev
1980Olympics115917
1981IIHF World Championship8/5/ASTAlexander MaltsevLarry Robinson
1981Canada Cup9688
1982IIHF World Championship132713ASTASTViktor ShalimovSlava Fetisov
1983IIHF World Championship181107ASTASTJiri LalaAlexei Kasatonov
1984Olympics624114
1984Canada Cup711//AST
1985IIHF World Championship141132ASTASTSergei MakarovSlava Fetisov
1986IIHF World Championship181153ASTASTVladimir KrutovSlava Fetisov
1987IIHF World Championship142108ASTASTVladimir KrutovCraig Hartsburg
1987Canada Cup15377AST
1988Olympics114132
1989IIHF World Championship817631ASTASTBrian BellowsSlava Fetisov
1990IIHF World Championship368109ASTSteve YzermanMikhail Tatarinov
1991IIHF World Championship109459ASTValeri KamenskyJamie Macoun
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
1 Canada Cup AST each

Fetisov outsores Makarov 33-28 in the Olympics (22 GP each).

Fetisov wins 5 Top D awards at the World Championships. Makarov wins one Top F award. Both lose out to teammates on occasion, but it seems that the directorate saw quite a few USSR forwards on Makarov's level.
 
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blogofmike

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1918: Taylor once again ran away with the scoring title, though this time on the strength of his goal total, which led the league by a large margin. Some PCHA players were gone to war in this season, but the leaderboard is still a pretty strong one. Taylor and Mickey Mackay were superb in the SC series, which saw Vancouver narrowly defeated by Toronto 3-2 in games. Taylor scored 9 goals in the five games, though it was stated that some Eastern observers thought Mackay to be the greater player at this point (Taylor was nearing 34 years old at this point).

Also of note is that rules alternated between games, including a shift between 7-on-7 and 6-on-6 each game. The "home" team (all games were in Toronto) won each game that was played under their league's rules. Taylor scored 5 goals under NHA rules, which is a large share of the 7 goals his team managed overall in those 3 NHA rules games.
 

Kyle McMahon

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Also of note is that rules alternated between games, including a shift between 7-on-7 and 6-on-6 each game. The "home" team (all games were in Toronto) won each game that was played under their league's rules. Taylor scored 5 goals under NHA rules, which is a large share of the 7 goals his team managed overall in those 3 NHA rules games.

This is a good point. Taylor was said to have played strong regardless of East/West rules. The picture painted in Trail of the Stanley Cup is that Toronto's aggressive forwards were able to grind down a weak Vancouver defense which featured Si Griffis was on his last legs.
 

wetcoast

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The European depth wasn't anywhere near what it was in Sakic's day or certainly today. Meanwhile, Espo's best season was one season before the WHA even started, and there were a lot fewer teams in Esposito's halcyon days, therefore the concentration of talent wasn't that different than in Sakic's day.

Esposito's best year came in 70-71 when there were 14 teams in the league (against the expansion Sabers the Bruins scored 36 goals in 6 games and against the Canucks they scored 35 goals in 6 games).

Looking at the league composition there were 345 skaters in the league of which 327 were Canadian born and bred players which is 94.78%.

That doesn't include a guy like Stan mikita who was Canadian bread and the early Swedish player to come to North America to play junior hockey in Juha Widing, who in 69-70 became the first mostly European trained player to have a full time contract in the NHL. In my research I also found out, sadly, that he died at age 37 of a heart attack.

Let's compare to Sakic's best season where he won the Hart in 2000-2001 when there were 884 skaters to play at least a game in the NHL of which 481 were Canadians which equates to 54.41%

Of course they were now 30 teams in the NHL in 00-01 but there were alot more players form other talent streams as well.

More importantly in 00-01 there were only 2 Canadians in the top 10 scoring that year and only 5 in the top 15.

Canada was still a great hockey nation producing as much talent, or even more than in 70-71 but obviously the claim that the concentration of talent in 70-71 wasn't that different than 00-01 doesn't hold true.

I'm pretty sure a similar trend can be found throughout Sakic's career.

Here is a list of the top scoring players in the NHL during Sakic's career

https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...points&c1comp=gt&threshhold=5&order_by=points

Quite a different makeup from the guys on Phil's list

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com
 

Batis

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Fetisov wins 5 Top D awards at the World Championships. Makarov wins one Top F award. Both lose out to teammates on occasion, but it seems that the directorate saw quite a few USSR forwards on Makarov's level.

In 1979 Makarov actually won the Directorate Best Forward award as well. That year 3 forwards (Makarov, Mikhailov and Paiement) shared the award. Considering that 2 defencemen (Vasiliev and Bubla) also shared the award that same year it seems likely that what the Directorate did that year was choosing their own All-Star team. Officially all those 3 forwards shared the Best Forward award though which gives Makarov 2 Directorate Best Forward awards.

You are correct about that the Directorate generally did not seem overly high on Makarov when compared to the media people who voted for the All-Star team. Makarov led all forwards in the All-Star voting 3 times (82, 85 and 86) and while we don't have the full results for the media vote in 1983 we know that Makarov beat out that tournaments Directorate winner Lala in the All-Star voting. In 1982 it is worth noting that Makarov was the leading votegetter among forwards ahead of Wayne Gretzky with 284 votes to 247. Many of these All-Star voting results can be found in this excellent thread about European hockey from @DN28 Hockey in Czechoslovakia and Europe from 1968 to 1990 (some awards and stats) and the remaining available ones can be found in the International Hockey Reference thread.

However I think that it can be said that the competition level among defencemen generally was somewhat lower than among forwards. Fetisovs record is still incredibly impressive but if we look at the number of times that a player has been arguably the top positional player at a WHC (finishing first in the media vote or winning the directorate award or doing both) we see that Makarov stand out almost as much among forwards as Fetisov does among defencemen.

Number of times being arguably the top positional player at a WHC (finishing first in the media vote or winning the directorate award or doing both)

Fetisov 6 times (78, 82, 85, 86, 87, 89)
Holecek 6 times (71, 72, 73, 75, 76, 78)
Vasiliev 5 times (73, 75, 77, 79, 81)
Makarov 4 times (79, 82, 85, 86)
Tretiak 4 times (74, 75, 79, 83)
Suchy 4 times (68, 69, 70, 71)
Martin 4 times (61, 63, 64, 66)

Makarov is the only forward who arguably has been the top positional player at 4 WHC tournaments and his closest competitors among forwards Firsov and Maltsev did so 3 times each. Fetisovs 6 times as arguably the top positional player at WHC tournaments is incredibly impressive but Vasiliev and Suchy are not that far behind here.
 
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Canadiens1958

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In 1979 Makarov actually won the Directorate Best Forward award as well. That year 3 forwards (Makarov, Mikhailov and Paiement) shared the award. Considering that 2 defencemen (Vasiliev and Bubla) also shared the award that same year it seems likely that what the Directorate did that year was choosing their own All-Star team. Officially all those 3 forwards shared the Best Forward award though which gives Makarov two Directorate Best Forward awards.

You are correct about that the Directorate generally did not seem overly high on Makarov when compared to the media people who voted for the All-Star team. Makarov led all forwards in the All-Star voting 3 times (82, 85 and 86) and while we don't have the full results for the media vote in 1983 we know that Makarov beat out that tournaments Directorate winner Lala in the All-Star voting.

However I think that it can be said that the competition level among defencemen generally was somewhat lower than among forwards. Fetisovs record is still incredibly impressive but if we look at the number of times that a player has been arguably the top positional player at a WHC (finishing first in the media vote or winning the directorate award or doing both) we see that Makarov stand out almost as much among forwards as Fetisov does among defencemen.

Number of times being arguably the top positional player at a WHC (finishing first in the media vote or winning the directorate award or doing both)

Fetisov 6 times (78, 82, 85, 86, 87, 89)
Holecek 6 times (71, 72, 73, 75, 76, 78)
Vasiliev 5 times (73, 75, 77, 79, 81)
Makarov 4 times (79, 82, 85, 86)
Tretiak 4 times (74, 75, 79, 83)
Suchy 4 times (68, 69, 70, 71)
Martin 4 times (61, 63, 64, 66)

Makarov is the only forward who arguably have been the top positional player at 4 WHC tournaments and his closest competitors among forwards Firsov and Maltsev did so 3 times each. Fetisovs 6 times as arguably the top positional player at WHC tournaments is incredibly impressive but Vasiliev and Suchy are not that far behind here.

One Directorate Best Forward only and a three way tie? 1979 for another with Wilf Paiement of all players.

List of IIHF World Championship directorate award winners - Wikipedia

So within six seasons,1984 Canada Cup JohnTonelli MVP, 1979 Paiement and Mikhailov were seen as equal as equal to or superior to Makarov.

Given that Maltsev has three Directorate Best Forward Awards to Makarov having one,consideration of Makarov seems premature.
 

Batis

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One Directorate Best Forward only and a three way tie? 1979 for another with Wilf Paiement of all players.

List of IIHF World Championship directorate award winners - Wikipedia

So within six seasons,1984 Canada Cup JohnTonelli MVP, 1979 Paiement and Mikhailov were seen as equal as equal to or superior to Makarov.

Given that Maltsev has three Directorate Best Forward Awards to Makarov having one,consideration of Makarov seems premature.

No matter what you believe Makarov actually has 2 Directorate Best Forward awards as the 1979 one was shared between 3 players. Team CCCP Players Info: Sergey MAKAROV (Сергей МАКАРОВ)

And as for the rest of your post I don't know why we would put that much value on the trophy counting of one award when Makarov has the strongest WHC All-Star voting record among all forwards as well as having the strongest Izvestia Golden Stick voting record of all players and the strongest SPOTY voting record of all forwards. Should we just ignore all of that and focus on the trophy counting of one award? That does not seem like a very good way to analyze the career of a player to me.
 
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