Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 6

[Killion]

Back problem was a euphamism for weak skaters whoonly saw the backs of others.

.... indeed so. Recall reading Reay saying "Esposito hurt his back getting out of a chair in his hotel room" which somehow just didnt seem or sound plausible.... How does a young guy, as Phil was at the time (22 in 1965) hurt his back getting into or out of a chair? Not even game or play/contact related. Code for "lazy" perhaps? Clearly a cryptic comment by Billy that only Phil really knew the meaning of, reads it in the paper post game after he spent most of it SITTING on the bench.

 

[Batis]

Gretzky in the same three Canada Cups, scored 13G and 32A. More assists than Makarov had points.Not raised when Gretzky was discussed.

Gretzky also played in two games more than Makarov over those 3 tournaments.

Gretzky: 24 gp, 13 g, 32 a, 45 pts
Makarov: 22 gp, 16 g, 15 a, 31 pts

Over 82 games their averages comes out to this.

Gretzky: 154 pts
Makarov: 116 pts

I don't really see how keeping up this relatively well with the greatest hockey player of all time could be seen as anything but a truly great achievement. Especially considering that Makarov was among the top penalty killers of the Soviet team in all of those 3 Canada Cup tournaments and managed to be in on as many shorthanded goals forward as he was in on powerplay goals against.

Makarovs penalty killing totals at Canada Cups: 18 gp: 32 min, 43 sec, 5 goals forward, 5 goals against

Canada Cup 1981

1. Vladimir Golikov: 4 gp: 8 min, 23 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
2. Sergey Shepelev: 4 gp: 7 min, 27 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
2. Victor Shalimov: 4 gp: 7 min, 24 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
4. Sergey Makarov: 4 gp: 6 min, 15 sec: 1 goal forward, 2 goals against
5. Viktor Zhluktov: 4 gp: 6 min, 7 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
6. Irek Gimaev: 3 gp: 5 min, 28 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
7. Vladimir Krutov: 4 gp: 4 min, 58 sec: 1 goal forward, 2 goals against
7. Alexander Skvortsov: 4 gp: 4 min, 58 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
9. Alexander Maltsev: 1 gp: 2 min, 38 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
10. Nikolay Drozdetsky: 4 gp: 1 min, 45 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
11. Igor Larionov: 4 gp: 0 min, 4 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against

Canada Cup 1984

1. Sergey Makarov: 6 gp: 8 min, 59 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
2. Vladimir Krutov: 6 gp: 8 min 38 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
3. Anatoly Semenov: 6 gp: 8 min, 19 sec: 0 goals forward, 1 goal against
4. Sergey Svetlov: 6 gp: 7 min, 50 sec: 0 goals forward, 1 goal against
5. Alexander Skvortsov: 6 gp: 7 min, 11 sec: 0 goals forward, 1 goal against
6. Irek Gimaev: 6 gp: 6 min, 9 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
7. Mikhail Varnakov: 6 gp: 5 min, 49 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
8. Sergey Shepelev: 5 gp: 1 min, 31 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
9. Vladimir Kovin: 6 gp: 1 min, 23 sec: 0 goals forward,1 goal against
10. Igor Larionov: 5 gp: 0 min, 58 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
10. Mikhail Vasiliev: 4 gp: 0 min, 57 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against

Note: During this tournament Gimaev played both the defence and forward position on the penalty kill. I still included him here and this is his combined stats from both positions.

Canada Cup 1987

1. Vladimir Krutov: 8 gp: 19 min, 17 sec: 4 goals forward, 4 goals against
2. Vyacheslav Bykov: 8 gp: 18 min, 48 sec: 0 goals forward, 1 goal against
3. Sergey Makarov: 8 gp: 17 min, 29 sec: 4 goals forward, 3 goals against
3. Andrey Khomutov: 8 gp: 17 min, 26 sec: 0 goals forward, 1 goal against
5. Anatoly Semenov: 8 gp: 12 min, 3 sec: 1 goal forward, 1 goal against
6. Sergey Svetlov: 4 gp: 6 min, 24 sec: 1 goal forward, 1 goal against
7. Andrey Lomakin: 8 gp: 5 min, 26 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
8. Igor Larionov: 8 gp: 1 min, 37 sec: 0 goals forward, 1 goal against
9. Yury Khmylev: 8 gp: 1 min, 16 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
10. Alexander Semak: 6 gp: 1 min, 6 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
11. Valery Kamensky: 8 gp: 0 min, 44 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
12. Sergey Nemshinov: 4 gp: 0 min, 35 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against
13. Sergey Priakin: 8 gp: 0 min, 22 sec: 0 goals forward, 0 goals against

 

[Canadiens1958]

Gretzky also played in two games more than Makarov over those 3 tournaments.

Gretzky: 24 gp, 13 g, 32 a, 45 pts
Makarov: 22 gp, 16 g, 15 a, 31 pts

Over 82 games their averages comes out to this.

Gretzky: 154 pts
Makarov: 116 pts

I don't really see how keeping up this well with the greatest hockey player of all time could be seen as anything but a truly great achievement. Especially considering that Makarov was among the top penalty killers of the Soviet team in all of those 3 Canada Cup tournaments and managed to be in on as many shorthanded goals forward as he was in on powerplay goals against.

Extra games are not given but earned by winning. Makarov without Fetisov in 1984 fell short.

1981 and 1987 CC, Fetisov enjoys a 2 point advantage on Ray Bourque in the same number of games. Marginal gap compared to Gretzky's edge over Makarov.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Overpass already supplied some great details, but I would say that the quick-and-dirty answer to the Forsberg/Sakic matchup question is that when their own coach controlled the matchups, Sakic and Forsberg had basically identical numbers over the period they played together, but when the other coach controlled the matchup Forsberg significantly outperformed Sakic.

Colorado, Regular Season, 1994-95 to 2003-04:
(Numbers Presented on a Per-82 Game Basis)

1995-04		HOME			ROAD
Per 82	GP	Pts	+/-	GP	Pts	+/-
Sakic	82	104	29	82	94	2
Forsberg	82	103	32	82	107	26
COL #3C	82	28	2	82	25	-2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I don't really see how that comes out being all that favourable to Sakic. If he did face checking lines more often on the road, then it probably meant Forsberg was busy dominating the other team's top line in their own rink. And if Sakic went against the top lines more often on the road, then it meant that the other teams were generally more worried about stopping Forsberg (yet still not very successful at all in terms of actually doing it). If the only differentiating factor was the matchup, then we'd expect to see the guy who drew more checking lines to have lower scoring numbers but probably a better plus/minus, and the guy who drew more top lines to have a bit better scoring numbers but a worse plus/minus. Instead, Forsberg is on a whole different level across the board while away from Colorado.

I'm pretty strongly in the "Forsberg was just a better player than Sakic" camp. I think the more important consideration for judging the two of them against each other was not their competition, but their linemates and how their own coach deployed them, given that several of Sakic's best years were built on him racking up the points on home ice alongside the team's best wingers (and when Forsberg took over a similar offence-focused role in 2003 he suddenly at age 29 started winning individual trophies and being seen as the best player in the world). It's important that Sakic did prove in his later career that he could handle being deployed in tougher minutes at home while still scoring pretty well on the road, but I still don't necessarily rate Sakic all that highly yet at this point of the project.

A semi-counterpoint to this would be that on a per-82-game basis, Forsberg wouldn't look out of place among at least some of the current group of candidates. In other words, his lack of durability (and longevity) that is not captured by per-game stats is the main reason he's not already a candidate.

 

[DannyGallivan]

A semi-counterpoint to this would be that on a per-82-game basis, Forsberg wouldn't look out of place among at least some of the current group of candidates, and that his lack of durability (and longevity) that is not captured by per-game stats is the main reason he's not already a candidate.

I'd say the same for Lindros.

 

[Batis]

Extra games are not given but earned by winning. Makarov without Fetisov in 1984 fell short.

1981 and 1987 CC, Fetisov enjoys a 2 point advantage on Ray Bourque in the same number of games. Marginal gap compared to Gretzky's edge over Makarov.

Do you honestly believe that being compared to Wayne Gretzky and Ray Bourque is the same thing? Makarov was also more impressive than Bourque during the Canada Cup tournaments of the 80's and more often than not gave Bourque some serious headaches in one-on-one situations.

Also re falling short in 1984. Makarov scored one of the greatest goals in Canada Cup history to give the Soviets the lead and they had that lead up until with 6 minutes left of the semi-final game and then lost in overtime. Hardly what I would call falling short without Fetisov.

 

[DannyGallivan]

.... indeed so. Recall reading Reay saying "Esposito hurt his back getting out of a chair in his hotel room" which somehow just didnt seem or sound plausible.... How does a young guy, as Phil was at the time (22 in 1965) hurt his back getting into or out of a chair? Not even game or play/contact related. Code for "lazy" perhaps? Clearly a cryptic comment by Billy that only Phil really knew the meaning of, reads it in the paper post game after he spent most of it SITTING on the bench.

Esposito always had a big mou... I mean, Espo was always outspoken. Reay didn't like being on the receiving end of it. Instead of working with the incredible untapped potential of Esposito, he pushed Espo out much to Boston's appreciation.

Reay also focused on Esposito's weight to the point of obsession, which was totally unnecessary. He really didn't know how to turn his assets into Stanley Cups, and Esposito was a very poor scapegoat for this.

The bottom line was that Reay turned Chicago into a Stanley Cup winner - when they should have been a three or four time winner (okay, Rudy Pilous actually coached them to their Stanley Cup, but that messes up my joke). It's no surprise that he had the greatest offensive centre in the league right under his nose and totally messed it up.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Forsberg and Sakic from 94/95 to 07/08 (the Swede's career in the NHL):

NHL.com - Stats

Them together in Colorado up until the lockout:

NHL.com - Stats

 

[DannyGallivan]

Do you honestly believe that being compared to Wayne Gretzky and Ray Bourque is the same thing? Makarov was also more impressive than Bourque during the Canada Cup tournaments of the 80's and more often than not gave Bourque some serious headaches in one-on-one situations.

For all of Bourques' attibutes, one-on-ones weren't always his shining moments. Having said that, Makarov was the best the Soviets had to offer.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Do you honestly believe that being compared to Wayne Gretzky and Ray Bourque is the same thing? Makarov was also more impressive than Bourque during the Canada Cup tournaments of the 80's and more often than not gave Bourque some serious headaches in one-on-one situations.

And Gretzky gave Fetisov a harder time. Defencemen are best compared to defencemen.

 

[bobholly39]

Gretzky also played in two games more than Makarov over those 3 tournaments.

Gretzky: 24 gp, 13 g, 32 a, 45 pts
Makarov: 22 gp, 16 g, 15 a, 31 pts

Over 82 games their averages comes out to this.

Gretzky: 154 pts
Makarov: 116 pts

I don't really see how keeping up this well with the greatest hockey player of all time could be seen as anything but a truly great achievement. Especially considering that Makarov was among the top penalty killers of the Soviet team in all of those 3 Canada Cup tournaments and managed to be in on as many shorthanded goals forward as he was in on powerplay goals against.

Makarovs penalty killing totals at Canada Cups: 18 gp: 32 min, 43 sec, 5 goals forward, 5 goals against

I mean 116 point pace to 154 point pace isn't exactly "keeping up with". It's more "being lapped by".

It's probably best to compare Makarov to just about everyone else, than to Gretzky specifically. Players simply fall short, normally by big amounts, when compared to Gretzky, especially in regards to offense.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I have a question about each. In original first-name alphabetical order:

Clarke: Having just two 1st team, two 2nd team all star selections, ... only three top-5 in point seasons,... Never top 10 in goals... just five times top-5 in assists.... once a Selke winner... a dirty play artist known to need goon backup to finish what he started... for the life of me: what does Clarke have over ineligibles ( like Yzerman)?

Trottier: Do his two Stanley Cup championship contributions in Pittsburgh as a veteran role player amount to anything in this?

Cyclone: 1. Does a career of 7-11 great seasons equal one of 12-16 in modern times? 2. Who compares in PPG average (to use a Crosby metric) to Cyclone in the PCHA or NHA?

Hall: Did you know that not only did Glenn get selected for the 1st or 2nd all-star honors a record 11 times during the star-laden O6 era, but none of those include the year he won the Conn Smythe (1968) nor the year he backstopped a Game 7 Stanley Cup Final run in which he led in wins, saves and shots against (1965)?!

Sakic: Should he be compared more to Nighbor and Messier or to Forsberg and Yzerman?

Brodeur: He was three times a 1st team all star (over Luongo twice, Turco once), and yet how impressive are compiler stats that come with a long career on a good team?

Bossy: How great is his goals per shot average to his sniper image?

Esposito: How long can a six-time 1st in goals, seven-time top-2 in assists modern offensive talent go without induction?

Makarov: How significant is 16 goals, 31 points over the 1981, 1984 and 1987 Canada Cups?

Sawchuk: How does the fact that he has the same number of 1st & 2nd all star berths as Brodeur and yet more Stanley Cups with stellar numbers in victories for two franchises (1954 Detroit, 1967 Toronto) count in his favour? And how much can one ignore the accolades and respect he has garnered among knowledgeable hockey minds?

Fetisov: Is it significant that the IIHF voted Fetisov overwhelmingly for its Centennial All-star Team with 54 votes? The next closest was Gretzky with 38. Makarov is on the squad with 18 votes.

I'm open to some serious replies.

1. Clarke is one of the all time great defensive hockey players. Obviously with his offense it makes him an elite 2 way player. Yeah he was a POS who had others do his heavy lifting when it came time to answer the bell but his way served a purpose. Won a few Cups doing it. Yzerman really wasn't a big 2 way guy until Bowman arrived much later in his career. I give Yzerman a ton of credit for adapting his game as he slowed down but I think Clarke is a clear notch about Stevie in terms of defensive play.

2. They don't hurt Trottier. I'm well versed in Pittsburgh hockey history and he was a key member of those teams. Stuff that doesn't show up on the stat sheet like leadership, which was SORELY lacking (Lemieux was not a very good leader at this stage of his career, Jagr was young and full of himself, big riffs with the star players and Scotty Bowman in 92). Solid depth guy who did the gritty work. Chipped in some points. It's nothing significant mind you, but I think it's a solid end to a HOF career.

3. Nobody compares to Taylor in the PCHA. At least not offensively.

4. Hall is a lock this round and I had him as one last round. If he doesn't go now, I riot. His longevity is amazing. Peak pretty darn strong. His playoffs aren't stellar but he had stellar moments and was better than the numbers indicate.

5. Forsberg is a player I love but he doesn't need to be mentioned now. Too many what if's with him, mostly injury wise. One of this forum's most overrated players by the average fan. You'd think he was a top 10 hockey player ever reading the archives. Sakic is about where he should be. Just behind Nighbor and Messier and just ahead of Yzerman. I don't see a massive gap in either direction IMO.

6. Guess you were one of the NR's for Marty last round . If you're going to just call him a compiler when he holds so many records, better than raw data peak, and amazing longevity as a top goalie, then there is no point in discussing him but I will anyway. The only drawback against Brodeur is his peak wasn't higher. He was the 3rd best goalie of the 90's behind Hasek and Roy. Is that some sort of negative? I don't think so. He was clearly the best goalie between 2000 and 2010. That's a pretty darn long stretch of being good to great. One of the better playoff performances in 1995 ever for a goalie. 2 other strong Cup wins. Amazing in knockout stage games for Canada, namely 2004 and 2002. Want to knock him for 2010? Fine. He was pushing 38 years old and played 2 games. Small sample size. And lastly how many goalies had such an impact on the game that they forced the league to literally change rules restricting where goalies can play the puck? He left his mark on the game in more ways than just one. A lock for me.

7. All time great peak for Bossy. Elite goal scorer, sneaky play maker. But during the dynasty he was the 3rd wheel for me. Still a very important 3rd wheel but those teams were driven up and down the ice by Potvin and Trottier IMO. Both physically and emotionally. Bossy was the best Islander just about the time the dynasty folded so I don't really pay that as much stock as I would otherwise. Career was over around 29 years of age. Gets to miss the post 30's critique that many others can't hide from. Should be in the 30's IMO. Too early for him to go now.

8. Espo should be going soon. We're getting close to the point where I think you're going beyond the Orr effect (which I do advocate strongly). He had multiple really good postseason runs and was a legend in the 72 Summit series. That is one of the most culturally important hockey series of all time and he rose to the occasion.

9/10. Makarov and Fetisov both need to be inducted sooner than later. Best USSR F/D of all time.

11. Sawchuk has an elite peak, but again, where is the meat after 1955? Doesn't exist relative to Hall or Brodeur. Facts. Postseason play is elite, then bad, then good, then bad, then elite for one last hurrah in Toronto. The problem with Terry is consistency. Hall didn't wear a mask either and played 551 straight games and was better, more often. Brodeur was an AS/Top 5 Hart caliber goalie from his early 20's to his mid 30's. I'd rather group Hall and Brodeur and then discuss Sawchuk and Ken Dryden, both players who are much more slanted towards peak play.

 

[Batis]

I mean 116 point pace to 154 point pace isn't exactly "keeping up with". It's more "being lapped by".

It's probably best to compare Makarov to just about everyone else, than to Gretzky specifically. Players simply fall short, normally by big amounts, when compared to Gretzky, especially in regards to offense.

When the other player is prime Wayne Gretzky I would say that scoring at a 116 points pace to a 154 points pace can be considered keeping up rather well with him. Especially when Makarov also had to carry such a heavy load on the penalty kill. I am aware of that Gretzky did some penalty killing in Canada Cups as well but from my memory not nearly as much as Makarov.

Edit: I changed the choice of word in the original post to "relatively well" to better represent what I meant.

 

[Batis]

Great post! I´ve already come to the same conclusion during Non-NHL Europeans project. Makarov was slightly more consistent and had a better first few seasons than Fetisov. Makarov became one of the best players in Europe during 1978-79 while Fetisov achieved the same during 1981-82. And after that, period of in between 1982 up to 1989, they were both as even as it could get.

I´ve gone through their season-by-season careers up to 1990 and I´ve divided their resumés into 2-3 years segments for better understanding. Before I start, just a quick explanation in case anyone hasn´t known yet:

- SPOTY voting = ‘Soviet player of the year’ voting
- Izvestia voting = voting that was supposed to determine the best players in Europe in a given season, i.e. pool of players and voters was combined from all European nations, not just the Soviets.

Fetisov x Makarov (season-by-season)
- same age, born in April / June 1958

It´s clear that Fetisov´s early start into his career was better. Joined the USSR team one year earlier than Makarov and he received his first international recognition also one year earlier than Makarov. The best d-man at 1978 Championship while still a teenager. Makarov didn´t do anything significant yet.

1976-1977 (18 y/o):
· Fetisov – played WHC 77 as a 7th d-man, 6 points in 5 games, no award recognition
- no votes in SPOTY voting, at best could have been 5th best d-man and 16th best player, no all-star team
· Makarov – did not play WHC 77 at all
- no votes in SPOTY voting, (10 forwards got voted, 15 players overall), no all-star team, outside top 10 league scoring

1977-1978 (19 y/o):
· Fetisov – WHC 78 All-star d-man, Directoriate´s Best d-man, 10 points in 10 games
- 3rd in SPOTY voting, 1st among d-men, Soviet all-star team
· Makarov – 5 points in 10 games at WHC 78, no award recognition
- 9th in SPOTY voting, 7th among forwards, no all-star team, outside top 10 league scoring
________________________________________________

The career trajectory of these players turned upside down during 1979-1981 stretch. Fetisov first big injury must have slowed him down a lot. Did not play WHC 79 and did not receive a single vote in the "Soviet MVP" voting during these 3 years. On the other side, Makarov enters the conversation for the best player in Europe during this time. I would highlight his 1980, where he was voted as the best Soviet and also as the best European - a rare feat. Overall, I think we can comfortably call Makarov as the best player outside North Americe already at this stage. There was no other player who received more appreciation in award voting than Makarov.

1978-1979 (20 y/o):
· Fetisov – did not play WHC 79 at all
- no votes in SPOTY/Izvestia voting, no all-star team
· Makarov – WHC 79 All-star RW, Directoriate´s Best forward, 12 points in 8 games, 3rd in scoring
- 4th in SPOTY/Izvestia voting, 3rd among forwards, Soviet all-star team, though still outside top 10 league scoring

1979-1980 (21 y/o):
· Fetisov – 9 points in 7 games at OG 80 (most productive d-man), no individual awards were given or voted for any 80´s Olympics
- no votes in SPOTY voting, at best could have been 5th best d-man and 22nd best player, but surprisingly got into the Soviet all-star team
- no votes in Izvestia voting
· Makarov – 11 points in 7 games at OG 80, 8th in scoring, no individual awards were given or voted for any 80´s Olympics
- 1st in SPOTY voting, Soviet all-star team, 1st in league scoring
- also 1st in Izvestia voting

1980-1981 (22 y/o):
· Fetisov – 5 points in 8 games at WHC 81, no award recognition
- again no votes in SPOTY voting for third time in a row now, at best could have been 4th best d-man and 15th best player, no all-star team
- at least he was 19th in Izvestia voting with a couple of fringe votes, 7th best d-man in Europe
· Makarov – WHC 81 All-star RW, 9 points in 7 games, but also outside top 10 WHC scoring and merely 6th most productive USSR player
- 4th in SPOTY voting, 3rd among forwards, Soviet all-star team, 1st in league scoring
- 4th in Izvestia voting, 3rd among forwards too
__________________________________

1982-1984, now Fetisov enters the picture back again. Although Kasatonov looked a bit better at CC 1981, Fetisov wins his first "Soviet MVP" in 1982 and his championship and olympic games performances during this stretch are head and shoulders above any other defensemen otherwise. As has been pointed out already, Fetisov´s drawback is his uncharacteristically weak Izvestia voting record in 1982 and 1983 when he was at his peak. European voters simply looked for a lot of diferrent players to vote for. At least, Fetisov was "compensated" by his 1st Izvestia award win in 1984. Makarov´s domestic and international scoring is impressive, though an only minor knock on him is that during this 3-year period, he was not voted as the best Soviet / European player at all, he just got constant 2nd-3rd-4th places in these main awards. Overall, it´s hard to distinguish which one of these two was considered better at this point.

1981-1982 (23 y/o):
· Fetisov – no award recognition at CC 81, tournament´s all-star d-men were Fetisov´s partner Kasatonov and A. Kadlec from CSSR team, although Fetisov´s 8 points in 7 games were good enough for a 10th spot in overall scoring chart
- WHC 82 All-star d-man, Directoriate´s Best d-man, 7 points in 10 games (most productive d-man)
- 1st in SPOTY voting, Soviet all-star team
- but very suspicious Izvestia voting, received no votes as far as we know, at best Fetisov could have been 10th, 3rd among d-men (behind M. Dvorak and V. Vasiliev)
· Makarov – no award recognition at CC 81, tournament´s all-star forwards were Perreault, Bossy and Shepelev, though Makarov´s 9 points in 7 games were good enough for a 7th spot in overall scoring chart
- WHC 82 All-star RW, 13 points in 10 games, 3rd in scoring
- 2nd in SPOTY voting, 1st among forwards, Soviet all-star team, 1st in league scoring
- 6th in Izvestia voting, 4th among forwards

1982-1983 (24 y/o):
· Fetisov – WHC 83 All-star d-man, Directoriate´s Best d-man, 10 points in 10 games
- 4th in SPOTY voting, 1st among d-men, Soviet all-star team
- 10th in Izvestia voting, 2nd (or 3rd?) among d-men
· Makarov – WHC 83 All-star RW, 18 points in 10 games, 1st in scoring
- 3rd in SPOTY voting, 2nd among forwards, Soviet all-star team, only 8th in league scoring this time, but Makarov apparently missed a third of the season and if he maintained his 1.40 ppg, he would finish 2nd in the scoring chart just behind H. Balderis.
- 4th in Izvestia voting, 3rd among forwards

1983-1984 (25 y/o):
· Fetisov – 11 points in 7 games at OG 84, most productive d-man and also 4th in scoring, no individual awards were given or voted for any 80´s Olympics
- 3rd in SPOTY voting, 1st among d-men, Soviet all-star team, also 4th in league scoring now as a d-man!
- 1st in Izvestia voting
· Makarov – 6 points in 7 games at OG 84, well outside top 10 OG scoring and merely 7th most productive USSR player, no individual awards were given or voted for any 80´s Olympics
- 4th in SPOTY voting, 2nd among forwards, Soviet all-star team, 1st in league scoring
- 4th in Izvestia voting but also 1st among forwards
____________________________________

1985-1987, what a misfortune for Fetisov that he missed the CC 1984. Because otherwise, he seemed to play great, his record for the remaining of the 1985 season was in continuity with his play from previous years. What´s impressive for Makarov, ´85 edition, is that his play without Fetisov at Canada Cup still warranted an All-star recognition. Fetisov´ and Makarov´s excellent offensive production on both international and domestic level should be noted as well. It looks to be on even a higher level for both players now, Fetisov as a d-man well over 1.0 ppg and finishing in the top 10s scoring lists everywhere, Makarov more likely the scoring leader either on international or domestic level rather than finishing merely 2nd. Overall, if I were to be forced to say who was better at this 3-year period, I´d be inclined to name Makarov. Sergei was proclaimed as the best Soviet in 1985 and best European in 1986. Fetisov the best Soviet in 1986 and that´s it, moreover - Fetisov´s very slight down-season in 1987 (just 5th in both of the main votings), while Makarov´s worse placement at this stretch was 4th in Izvestia 1987.

1984-1985 (26 y/o):
· Fetisov – did not play CC 84
- WHC 85 All-star d-man, Directoriate´s Best d-man, 13 points in 10 games, most productive d-man and also 3rd in scoring
- 2nd in SPOTY voting, 1st among d-men, Soviet all-star team. Fetisov played only 20 league games – worth to point out that he also recorded 25 points, and was 4th in the league with his 1.25 ppg
- 3rd Izvestia voting and 1st among d-men
· Makarov – CC 84 All-star RW, 7 points in 6 games, just outside top 10 scoring and 2nd most productive USSR player
- WHC 85 All-star RW, Directoriate´s Best forward, 14 points in 10 games, 1st in scoring
- 1st in SPOTY voting, Soviet all-star team, 1st in league scoring
- 2nd in Izvestia voting, 1st among forwards

1985-1986 (27 y/o):
· Fetisov – WHC 86 All-star d-man, Directoriate´s Best d-man, 15 points in 10 games, most productive d-man and also 3rd in scoring
- 1st in SPOTY voting, Soviet all-star team, 8th in league scoring too
- 4th in Izvestia voting, 1st among d-men
· Makarov – WHC 86 All-star RW, 18 points in 10 games, 1st in scoring
- 2nd in SPOTY voting, 1st among forwards, Soviet all-star team, 1st in league scoring
- 1st in Izvestia voting

1986-1987 (28 y/o):
· Fetisov – WHC 87 All-star d-man, 10 points in 10 games, most productive d-man and 10th in scoring
- 5th in SPOTY voting, 1st among d-men, Soviet all-star team, 9th or 10th in league scoring
- 5th in Izvestia voting, 1st among d-men
· Makarov – WHC 87 All-star RW, 14 points in 10 games, 2nd in scoring
- 3rd in SPOTY voting, 2nd among forwards, Soviet all-star team, 1st in league scoring
- 4th in Izvestia voting, 3rd among forwards
_______________________________

I´d say that Fetisov seemed to age a little bit better than Makarov during their last two seasons in Europe actually. Fetisov delivered an outstanding performance for the CC 1987 (all-star recognition), outplayed Makarov at OG 88, and - unlike during his early 80s peak seasons - European voters granted Fetisov with a lot honours, as he won the "best player in Europe" award twice in a row - 1988 and 1989. Though Makarov is definitely not far behind, he won his third "Soviet MVP" in 1989 and his 9th Soviet league scoring title in 1989 too.

1987-1988 (29 y/o):
· Fetisov – CC 87 All-star d-man, 7 points in 9 games, 9th in scoring
- 13 points in 8 at OG 88, most productive d-man and also 2nd in scoring, no individual awards were given or voted for any 80´s Olympics
- 2nd in SPOTY voting, 1st among d-men, Soviet all-star team
- 1st Izvestia voting
· Makarov – 15 points in 9 games at CC, the highest scoring Soviet player and 3rd in overall scoring. Although no award recognition this time, as Lemieux, Gretzky and Krutov got into the tournament´s All-star team.
- 11 points in 8 games at OG 88, 6th in scoring, no individual awards were given or voted for any 80´s Olympics
- 4th in SPOTY voting, 3rd among forwards, Soviet all-star team, 1st in league scoring
- 3rd in Izvestia voting, 2nd among forwards

1988-1989 (30 y/o):
· Fetisov – WHC 89 All-star d-man, Directoriate´s Best d-man, 6 points in 10 games
- 3rd in SPOTY voting, 1st among d-men, no Soviet all-star teams were determined this season, also looks like Fetisov went through another injury, as he played only 23 league games (out of 44) while scoring 18 points
- 1st in Izvestia voting
· Makarov – WHC 89 All-star RW, 8 points in 10 games, outside top 10 scoring and 4th highest scoring Soviet
- 1st in SPOTY voting, no Soviet all-star teams were determined this season, 1st in league scoring (Makarov´s 9th league scoring title now)
- 3rd in Izvestia voting, 1st among forwards

I also decided to include just their first NHL season too, what these players did after 1991 is, I think well known around here, more easily to look up and I don´t want to make this post any longer than necessary. It is obvious that Makarov did a lot better than Fetisov in his initial NHL season, even in NHL playoffs too. But it´s interesting to see that Fetisov after that continued to expand his World championship´s collection of individual trophies (WHC ´90 all-star team), Makarov was at this time outplayed by even his right wing Soviet teammates Khomutov and Bure and he did not get his WHC All-star RW nod for the first time since 1978.

1989-1990 (31 y/o):
· Fetisov – 42 points in 72 games (+9) in NHL reg. season
- 2 points in 6 games (-5) in NHL playoffs
- 10 points in 8 games at WHC 90, WHC all-star d-man and 10th in scoring
- 8th in Calder voting with one 3rd place vote
- no votes in SPOTY voting for obvious reasons and Izvestia voting was not conducted after 1989
· Makarov – 86 points in 80 games (+33) in NHL reg. season, 30th in scoring
- 6 points in 6 games (+3) in NHL playoffs
- 3 points in 7 games at WHC 90, no award recognition – for the first time since Makarov was a teenager, he was not named as WHC all-star RW (1st and 2nd AS-RW were A. Khomutov and Pavel Bure)
- 1st in Calder voting, 10th in NHL AS-RW voting with one 3rd place vote
- no votes in SPOTY voting for obvious reasons and Izvestia voting was not conducted after 1989
____________________________

My overall impression is that there isn´t a noteworthy separation between peak Fetisov and peak Makarov and thus Makarov comes ahead simply by his significantly better 1979-1981 stretch and then by his partially better NHL adjustments and results.

Thank you for doing this great in-depth breakdown of the primes of Makarov and Fetisov. I fully agree with your overall impressions and now I feel even more comfortable with ranking Makarov slightly ahead of Fetisov than I did before.

 

[pappyline]

Esposito always had a big mou... I mean, Espo was always outspoken. Reay didn't like being on the receiving end of it. Instead of working with the incredible untapped potential of Esposito, he pushed Espo out much to Boston's appreciation.

Reay also focused on Esposito's weight to the point of obsession, which was totally unnecessary. He really didn't know how to turn his assets into Stanley Cups, and Esposito was a very poor scapegoat for this.

The bottom line was that Reay turned Chicago into a Stanley Cup winner - when they should have been a three or four time winner (okay, Rudy Pilous actually coached them to their Stanley Cup, but that messes up my joke). It's no surprise that he had the greatest offensive centre in the league right under his nose and totally messed it up.

Yes Espo certainly had a big mouth and a big ego. It was a two way street. Reay wasn't the greatest coach but Espo wasn't the easiest guy to coach. Even with Boston he wouldn't come off the ice when called. To me that shows disrespect for both your coach and your team mates. Boston tolerated it but Chicago didn't. His potential wasn't very obvious with Chicago. Being allowed to play long shifts, hang in the slot, and having the best defenseman ever on your team was a dream come true for Espo.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Yes Espo certainly had a big mouth and a big ego. It was a two way street. Reay wasn't the greatest coach but Espo wasn't the easiest guy to coach. Even with Boston he wouldn't come off the ice when called. To me that shows disrespect for both your coach and your team mates. Boston tolerated it but Chicago didn't. His potential wasn't very obvious with Chicago. Being allowed to play long shifts, hang in the slot, and having the best defenseman ever on your team was a dream come true for Espo.

Dominating the top of the league scoring helped him. The best players could trump the coach when the team was winning. Bowman couldn't coach Lafleur. Hull stayed on for consecutive shifts because he wanted to do so. And Orr didn't change the game by following the coach's "system".

 

[Captain Bowie]

Overpass already supplied some great details, but I would say that the quick-and-dirty answer to the Forsberg/Sakic matchup question is that when their own coach controlled the matchups, Sakic and Forsberg had basically identical numbers over the period they played together, but when the other coach controlled the matchup Forsberg significantly outperformed Sakic.

Colorado, Regular Season, 1994-95 to 2003-04:
(Numbers Presented on a Per-82 Game Basis)

1995-04		HOME			ROAD
Per 82	GP	Pts	+/-	GP	Pts	+/-
Sakic	82	104	29	82	94	2
Forsberg	82	103	32	82	107	26
COL #3C	82	28	2	82	25	-2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I don't really see how that comes out being all that favourable to Sakic. If he did face checking lines more often on the road, then it probably meant Forsberg was busy dominating the other team's top line in their own rink. And if Sakic went against the top lines more often on the road, then it meant that the other teams were generally more worried about stopping Forsberg (yet still not very successful at all in terms of actually doing it). If the only differentiating factor was the matchup, then we'd expect to see the guy who drew more checking lines to have lower scoring numbers but probably a better plus/minus, and the guy who drew more top lines to have a bit better scoring numbers but a worse plus/minus. Instead, Forsberg is on a whole different level across the board while away from Colorado.

I'm pretty strongly in the "Forsberg was just a better player than Sakic" camp. I think the more important consideration for judging the two of them against each other was not their competition, but their linemates and how their own coach deployed them, given that several of Sakic's best years were built on him racking up the points on home ice alongside the team's best wingers (and when Forsberg took over a similar offence-focused role in 2003 he suddenly at age 29 started winning individual trophies and being seen as the best player in the world). It's important that Sakic did prove in his later career that he could handle being deployed in tougher minutes at home while still scoring pretty well on the road, but I still don't necessarily rate Sakic all that highly yet at this point of the project.

We don't really know what could account for this, do we? We don't know if opposing teams focusing top checkers on Sakic or Forsberg, do we?

 

[Wrath]

I thought the general conclusion (from some of the previous linked threads investigating the Sakic/Forsberg phenomenon) was that a lot of teams put their best checkers on Forsberg and their top offensive lines against Sakic.

The implication being that if Sakic/Forsberg were equally skilled, Sakic would have higher offensive production with lower +/- while Forsberg would have lower offensive production with higher +/-. In actuality they had similar offensive production with Forsberg having a higher +/-.

That's my general recollection of the conclusions, so take it with a grain of salt. I also recall (with even more spotty memory) that both Sakic and Forsberg tended to play very well when the other was out with injury.

 

[MXD]

The offensive players are usually better players than the checkers, so Forsberg having the better numbers just means he was usually playing against worse players.

 

[Batis]

While we are on the subject of the Canada Cup tournaments of the 80's I would like to add that it in my opinion is rather likely that the Soviets would have won all 3 Canada Cup tournaments of that decade if not for Wayne Gretzky. This is another reason for why I think that both Fetisov and Makarov needs to be added to the list as soon as possible.

- In 1981 the Soviets of course won in style even when up against Gretzky. That Canadian team had 4 players who already are on the list (Gretzky, Bourque, Potvin and Lafleur) and 2 other players who are candidates at the moment (Trottier and Bossy).

- In 1987 the Soviets won game 1 of the finals and in game 2 Gretzky needed to have the game of his life to save Canada with the smallest of margins in a marathon game. Without Gretzky the Soviets would almost surely have won this tournament. That Canadian team had 4 players who already are on the list (Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque and Messier).

- In 1984 we have the only tournament where I think that Canada possibly could have won without Gretzky. Still when the Soviets had the lead at the end of the semifinal it was Gretzky who as usual stepped up with a great assist to take the game to overtime where the Coffey show of course began. So if not for Gretzky it is still pretty likely that the Soviets would come out on top in that game in my opinion. Here below you have Gretzkys great assist which likely saved Canada in that game. That Canadian team had 3 players who already are on the list (Gretzky, Bourque and Messier) and 1 player who is a candidate now (Bossy).



So even when up against the greatest player of all time in Wayne Gretzky along with many other all time greats the Soviets managed to be pretty much completely even with Team Canada in the 80's.

Canada Cup 1981
USSR-Canada 3-7
USSR-Canada 8-1

Canada Cup 1984
USSR-Canada 6-3
USSR-Canada 2-3 OT

Canada Cup 1987
USSR-Canada 3-3
USSR-Canada 6-5 OT
USSR-Canada 5-6 OT
USSR-Canada 5-6

Total including OT: USSR 3 wins, Canada 4 wins, 1 tie, Goal differential 38-34 advantage USSR
Total excluding OT: USSR 2 wins, Canada 2 wins, 4 ties, Goal differential 37-32 advantage USSR

This is the stats of Makarov and Fetisov from those games.

Sergei Makarov: 8 gp, 5 g, 7 a, 12 pts
Vyacheslav Fetisov: 6 gp, 2 g, 6 a, 8 pts

 

[daver]

I thought the general conclusion (from some of the previous linked threads investigating the Sakic/Forsberg phenomenon) was that a lot of teams put their best checkers on Forsberg and their top offensive lines against Sakic.

The implication being that if Sakic/Forsberg were equally skilled, Sakic would have higher offensive production with lower +/- while Forsberg would have lower offensive production with higher +/-. In actuality they had similar offensive production with Forsberg having a higher +/-.

That's my general recollection of the conclusions, so take it with a grain of salt. I also recall (with even more spotty memory) that both Sakic and Forsberg tended to play very well when the other was out with injury.

What about the d-pairings? Who would usually face the other team's #1 d-pairing?

 

[wetcoast]

A semi-counterpoint to this would be that on a per-82-game basis, Forsberg wouldn't look out of place among at least some of the current group of candidates. In other words, his lack of durability (and longevity) that is not captured by per-game stats is the main reason he's not already a candidate.

His lack of longevity is vastly overblown but that's for another round.

 

[MXD]

His lack of longevity is vastly overblown but that's for another round.

Peter Forsberg will be, amongst post-expansion North American players that will be eligible at one point, WITH THE POSSIBLE AND NOTABLE EXCEPTION OF ERIK KARLSSON, the one with the lowest amount of Games Played, and that includes Patrick Kane and Drew Doughty (and also Ed Belfour).

So, yeah, at this point, which is was TDMM's perspective, his lack of longevity is in no way overblown and is what precludes him from being a viable candidate. His Per Game value is really up there, it's just that he's lacking about 500 games to be relevant (at this juncture).

 

[wetcoast]

Peter Forsberg will be, amongst post-expansion North American players that will be eligible at one point, WITH THE POSSIBLE AND NOTABLE EXCEPTION OF ERIK KARLSSON, the one with the lowest amount of Games Played, and that includes Patrick Kane and Drew Doughty (and also Ed Belfour).

So, yeah, at this point, which is was TDMM's perspective, his lack of longevity is in no way overblown and is what precludes him from being a viable candidate. His Per Game value is really up there, it's just that he's lacking about 500 games to be relevant (at this juncture).

I understand that idea but he doesn't have any filler GP, he hit the ground running and was relevant over a long period of time.

Just because some guys have less than average GP advantage over Forsberg it shouldn't hold him back.

Indeed he would look very good this round.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The thing is that at least Sakic was doing some scoring, Esposito in chicago aged 22-24 average in those years

Regular season PPG .8125
Playoffs PPG .32

That makes Dionne look good.

Calling 99 for Sakic really bad when he scored 19-6-13-19 -2 that year surely isn't going to help Esposito when we use the same metric is it?

Sakic also ran into Detroit and Dallas 2 teams that were built for defensive hockey and could have won more SC's in a different environment.

Sure Sakic has some dips in his resume but he also has alot more good to very good to elite years as well.

If Sakic is a 100 in his playoff resume is Esposito even a 60?

I don't think so as he brought nothing but offense and was often a less than average defensive player as well.

Focusing only on his peak, which is Orr aided, and not looking at the whole picture isn't the way to go here IMO.

Even if we are only looking at best playoff performances Sakic has a big 3 as good as Phil and then some very good ones, compared to Esposito.

"If Sakic is a 100 in his playoff resume is Esposito even a 60?"

In the playoffs Sakic averaged 1.09 points per game. Espo 1.05.

Each won 2 Cups.

Espo was +25. Sakic -2.

Each were a minus player in 7 playoff seasons.

How exactly does that translate into 100 to 60 on any scale?