Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 6

[overpass]

Question about Sakic and Forsberg playing on separate lines. Was it Sakic that got the other team's defensive specialists most of the time, or the other way around? Maybe 50/50? When I look at Lafleur or Espo or Trottier/Bossy, I know that they were always facing the other team's best checkers, shadows, etc. When you have two elite centers, one of them must be benefiting from facing a more favourable match-up.

It varied depending on the year and the opponent.

In 1996 and 1997, Forsberg’s line with Kamensky and Lemieux tended to draw the tough matchups in the playoffs. Chicago matched Chris Chelios against them, and Detroit matched Sergei Fedorov’s line against them. Sakic won the 1996 Conn Smythe by filling up the net against second pairings and on the power play.

In 1999 and 2000, Sakic drew the Modano/Lehtinen/Hull matchup, which the Dallas line won both times. Guy Carbonneau played against Forsberg.

 

[DannyGallivan]

You forgot the large gap between Sakic and Espsotio.

Esposito is ahead of Sakic in virtually every individual and offensive metric. Points per game, Art Ross Trophies, Hart Trophies, game winning goals, even strength goals, goals in general, seasons leading in assists...

Sakic barely edges him out in playoff points per game, but Sakic is here for a reason and the playoffs are a large part of it. However, we need to take everything into consideration, and Sakic spent too many years being among the best and not enough years being THE best when it comes to the center position AND when it comes to a comparison to Phil Esposito.

 

[DannyGallivan]

It varied depending on the year and the opponent.

In 1996 and 1997, Forsberg’s line with Kamensky and Lemieux tended to draw the tough matchups in the playoffs. Chicago matched Chris Chelios against them, and Detroit matched Sergei Fedorov’s line against them. Sakic won the 1996 Conn Smythe by filling up the net against second pairings and on the power play.

In 1999 and 2000, Sakic drew the Modano/Lehtinen/Hull matchup, which the Dallas line won both times. Guy Carbonneau played against Forsberg.

I bring this up because when you compare Sakic to Esposito or Trottier, you know that the other two always drew the toughest defensive players. With Sakic, perhaps half of the time.

 

[bobholly39]

The thing is that at least Sakic was doing some scoring, Esposito in chicago aged 22-24 average in those years

Regular season PPG .8125
Playoffs PPG .32

That makes Dionne look good.

Calling 99 for Sakic really bad when he scored 19-6-13-19 -2 that year surely isn't going to help Esposito when we use the same metric is it?

Sakic also ran into Detroit and Dallas 2 teams that were built for defensive hockey and could have won more SC's in a different environment.

Sure Sakic has some dips in his resume but he also has alot more good to very good to elite years as well.

If Sakic is a 100 in his playoff resume is Esposito even a 60?

I don't think so as he brought nothing but offense and was often a less than average defensive player as well.

Focusing only on his peak, which is Orr aided, and not looking at the whole picture isn't the way to go here IMO.

Even if we are only looking at best playoff performances Sakic has a big 3 as good as Phil and then some very good ones, compared to Esposito.

The problem with this whole post is that you're very quickly changing the narrative. This shouldn't be about an all out attack on Esposito vs an all out attack on Sakic.

Yes Sakic has more "good" playoff performances than Espo. Yes - Sakic's overall playoffs are better than Espo. Yes - Sakic's very best playoff performances are likely better than Espo's. But so what? How does that have anything to do with you stating earlier that Espo's chicago years are a much lower valley. That's what I took exception to and what you haven't really refuted here, outside of changing the subject to overall playoffs, and best playoff performances now.

In 3 of Howe's first 4 playoff appearances he has a statline of - 16 games played and 2 points.
In 3 of Espo's first 4 playoff runs (the Chicago ones) he has a statline of 14 games played and 2 points.

Nobody looks at Howe and says "omg horrible playoff performer - his valleys at start of his playoff career are horrible and make Dionne look good". I mean maybe his Chicago years add nothing of substance for Esposito looking at playoffs - but they aren't some big negative either. It's more relevant to concentrate on the other years.

In which playoffs was Esposito largely disappointing after Boston? He didn't blow it out of the water each year maybe (and no i definitely don't rank him 100 on playoffs overall) - but his only playoff runs that stand out as bad are the Chicago ones. Everything post Boston seems average to great in terms of offensive output.

The reason why Espo > Sakic quite easily is because although Sakic has the better overall playoff resume, Esposito has 5 Art Rosses, 2 Pearsons and 2 harts. Not only that - but he beat Bobby Orr to the Hart as his teammate - which is an insane feat. Imagine Messier or Kurri beating Gretzky to the hart in the first half of the 80s?

 

[DN28]

Since TDMM already have made a great post about the case for Vyacheslav Fetisov being the top Non-NHL European I figured that I could make a post about why I rank Makarov slightly ahead of Fetisov. For many years I have had such a hard time deciding which one of Makarov and Fetisov that I view as the greatest Soviet player of all time. An example of this is that I during the Non-NHL Europeans project ranked Fetisov ahead in Round 1 and Makarov ahead in Round 2. Over the last couple of years when I have watched more Soviet hockey than ever and done so with a more analytical mindset than before I have however started to feel like Makarov belongs ahead of Fetisov on my all-time list. Makarov was just such an incredibly consistent performer throughout his prime and while Fetisov was amazing as well I personally feel like Makarovs incredible puck possession skills was the most important factor on the Green Unit. That unit just built so much of their success on puck possession and while every single member of the unit excelled at puck possession it was clearly Makarov who stood out the most in that type of play. Aside from the eye-test there are also some other reasons for why I now tend to rank Makarov slightly ahead of Fetisov.

1. Izvestia golden stick voting (Best player in Europe poll): Their respective Izvestia golden stick voting records suggests that the European observers voting on that award considered Makarov the superior player during their primes as evident by him having twice as many top 4 voting finishes as Fetisov (10 vs 5) and almost twice as many top 6 finishes (11 vs 6). And as I mentioned earlier considering how well fellow defenceman Vasiliev fared in the Izvestia voting (2 times top 3, 4 times top 8) despite being 29 years old when the award was created I am not so sure about that much of a anti-defencemen bias existed among the Izvestia voters either.

Sergei Makarov

Voting finishes: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th and 6th

Vyacheslav Fetisov:

Voting finishes: 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 10th

2. Consistency: Makarov was an incredibly consistent player. For 11 straight years between 78/79 and 88/89 he was voted a top 3 forward among Soviets in both the Izvestian golden stick voting and the Soviet player of the year voting (when using the Izvestia voting in 78/79 as a replacement for that seasons lack of SPOTY poll). As mentioned in the previous round Fetisov on the other hand had a downperiod between 78/79 and 80/81 when he did not recieve a single vote in the SPOTY voting for 3 straight years. As a result of this Fetisov "only" recieved votes during 9 seasons compared to Makarovs 12 seasons.

3. More individual success before their time on the Green Unit: In my opinion another point in Makarovs favour is that he was the most proven and accomplished player before the Green Unit was created. Just to be clear I am not saying that Fetisov was a product of the Green Unit in any way (as he was the co-driver of that unit in my opinion) but that Makarov had so much success even before those years (81/82-88/89) is still clearly a point in his favour as far as I am concerned.

Makarov who just had turned 23 when the unit was formed had already won 2 Soviet League scoring titles, 1 Soviet League goalscoring title, 1 Soviet player of the year award (plus 3 times top-4 in the voting), 1 Izvestia golden stick award (plus 3 times top-4 in the voting), 3 first team Soviet all-star selections, 1 WHC Directorate best forward award, 2 WHC first team all-star selections and 1 time WHC goalscoring leader.

Fetisov who also recently had turned 23 had 1 WHC best defenceman award, 1 WHC first team all-star selection, 2 first team Soviet all-star selections and had once finished 3rd in the Soviet player of the year voting in 77/78.

So I guess that the theme of the arguments for why I rank Makarov slightly ahead of Fetisov is that I am very high on the incredible consistency that Makarov showed over his 11-year long prime period. With this said I recognize that there are some valid arguments for having Fetisov ahead of Makarov as well (as evident by that I have switched back and forth between them for years) and the only "wrong" answer to the question who is the greatest Soviet player of all time is anyone answering their choice and then adding and it is not even close. Because it is close, very close.

Great post! I´ve already come to the same conclusion during Non-NHL Europeans project. Makarov was slightly more consistent and had a better first few seasons than Fetisov. Makarov became one of the best players in Europe during 1978-79 while Fetisov achieved the same during 1981-82. And after that, period of in between 1982 up to 1989, they were both as even as it could get.

I´ve gone through their season-by-season careers up to 1990 and I´ve divided their resumés into 2-3 years segments for better understanding. Before I start, just a quick explanation in case anyone hasn´t known yet:

- SPOTY voting = ‘Soviet player of the year’ voting
- Izvestia voting = voting that was supposed to determine the best players in Europe in a given season, i.e. pool of players and voters was combined from all European nations, not just the Soviets.

Fetisov x Makarov (season-by-season)
- same age, born in April / June 1958

It´s clear that Fetisov´s early start into his career was better. Joined the USSR team one year earlier than Makarov and he received his first international recognition also one year earlier than Makarov. The best d-man at 1978 Championship while still a teenager. Makarov didn´t do anything significant yet.

1976-1977 (18 y/o):
· Fetisov – played WHC 77 as a 7th d-man, 6 points in 5 games, no award recognition
- no votes in SPOTY voting, at best could have been 5th best d-man and 16th best player, no all-star team
· Makarov – did not play WHC 77 at all
- no votes in SPOTY voting, (10 forwards got voted, 15 players overall), no all-star team, outside top 10 league scoring

1977-1978 (19 y/o):
· Fetisov – WHC 78 All-star d-man, Directoriate´s Best d-man, 10 points in 10 games
- 3rd in SPOTY voting, 1st among d-men, Soviet all-star team
· Makarov – 5 points in 10 games at WHC 78, no award recognition
- 9th in SPOTY voting, 7th among forwards, no all-star team, outside top 10 league scoring
________________________________________________

The career trajectory of these players turned upside down during 1979-1981 stretch. Fetisov first big injury must have slowed him down a lot. Did not play WHC 79 and did not receive a single vote in the "Soviet MVP" voting during these 3 years. On the other side, Makarov enters the conversation for the best player in Europe during this time. I would highlight his 1980, where he was voted as the best Soviet and also as the best European - a rare feat. Overall, I think we can comfortably call Makarov as the best player outside North Americe already at this stage. There was no other player who received more appreciation in award voting than Makarov.

1978-1979 (20 y/o):
· Fetisov – did not play WHC 79 at all
- no votes in SPOTY/Izvestia voting, no all-star team
· Makarov – WHC 79 All-star RW, Directoriate´s Best forward, 12 points in 8 games, 3rd in scoring
- 4th in SPOTY/Izvestia voting, 3rd among forwards, Soviet all-star team, though still outside top 10 league scoring

1979-1980 (21 y/o):
· Fetisov – 9 points in 7 games at OG 80 (most productive d-man), no individual awards were given or voted for any 80´s Olympics
- no votes in SPOTY voting, at best could have been 5th best d-man and 22nd best player, but surprisingly got into the Soviet all-star team
- no votes in Izvestia voting
· Makarov – 11 points in 7 games at OG 80, 8th in scoring, no individual awards were given or voted for any 80´s Olympics
- 1st in SPOTY voting, Soviet all-star team, 1st in league scoring
- also 1st in Izvestia voting

1980-1981 (22 y/o):
· Fetisov – 5 points in 8 games at WHC 81, no award recognition
- again no votes in SPOTY voting for third time in a row now, at best could have been 4th best d-man and 15th best player, no all-star team
- at least he was 19th in Izvestia voting with a couple of fringe votes, 7th best d-man in Europe
· Makarov – WHC 81 All-star RW, 9 points in 7 games, but also outside top 10 WHC scoring and merely 6th most productive USSR player
- 4th in SPOTY voting, 3rd among forwards, Soviet all-star team, 1st in league scoring
- 4th in Izvestia voting, 3rd among forwards too
__________________________________

1982-1984, now Fetisov enters the picture back again. Although Kasatonov looked a bit better at CC 1981, Fetisov wins his first "Soviet MVP" in 1982 and his championship and olympic games performances during this stretch are head and shoulders above any other defensemen otherwise. As has been pointed out already, Fetisov´s drawback is his uncharacteristically weak Izvestia voting record in 1982 and 1983 when he was at his peak. European voters simply looked for a lot of diferrent players to vote for. At least, Fetisov was "compensated" by his 1st Izvestia award win in 1984. Makarov´s domestic and international scoring is impressive, though an only minor knock on him is that during this 3-year period, he was not voted as the best Soviet / European player at all, he just got constant 2nd-3rd-4th places in these main awards. Overall, it´s hard to distinguish which one of these two was considered better at this point.

1981-1982 (23 y/o):
· Fetisov – no award recognition at CC 81, tournament´s all-star d-men were Fetisov´s partner Kasatonov and A. Kadlec from CSSR team, although Fetisov´s 8 points in 7 games were good enough for a 10th spot in overall scoring chart
- WHC 82 All-star d-man, Directoriate´s Best d-man, 7 points in 10 games (most productive d-man)
- 1st in SPOTY voting, Soviet all-star team
- but very suspicious Izvestia voting, received no votes as far as we know, at best Fetisov could have been 10th, 3rd among d-men (behind M. Dvorak and V. Vasiliev)
· Makarov – no award recognition at CC 81, tournament´s all-star forwards were Perreault, Bossy and Shepelev, though Makarov´s 9 points in 7 games were good enough for a 7th spot in overall scoring chart
- WHC 82 All-star RW, 13 points in 10 games, 3rd in scoring
- 2nd in SPOTY voting, 1st among forwards, Soviet all-star team, 1st in league scoring
- 6th in Izvestia voting, 4th among forwards

1982-1983 (24 y/o):
· Fetisov – WHC 83 All-star d-man, Directoriate´s Best d-man, 10 points in 10 games
- 4th in SPOTY voting, 1st among d-men, Soviet all-star team
- 10th in Izvestia voting, 2nd (or 3rd?) among d-men
· Makarov – WHC 83 All-star RW, 18 points in 10 games, 1st in scoring
- 3rd in SPOTY voting, 2nd among forwards, Soviet all-star team, only 8th in league scoring this time, but Makarov apparently missed a third of the season and if he maintained his 1.40 ppg, he would finish 2nd in the scoring chart just behind H. Balderis.
- 4th in Izvestia voting, 3rd among forwards

1983-1984 (25 y/o):
· Fetisov – 11 points in 7 games at OG 84, most productive d-man and also 4th in scoring, no individual awards were given or voted for any 80´s Olympics
- 3rd in SPOTY voting, 1st among d-men, Soviet all-star team, also 4th in league scoring now as a d-man!
- 1st in Izvestia voting
· Makarov – 6 points in 7 games at OG 84, well outside top 10 OG scoring and merely 7th most productive USSR player, no individual awards were given or voted for any 80´s Olympics
- 4th in SPOTY voting, 2nd among forwards, Soviet all-star team, 1st in league scoring
- 4th in Izvestia voting but also 1st among forwards
____________________________________

1985-1987, what a misfortune for Fetisov that he missed the CC 1984. Because otherwise, he seemed to play great, his record for the remaining of the 1985 season was in continuity with his play from previous years. What´s impressive for Makarov, ´85 edition, is that his play without Fetisov at Canada Cup still warranted an All-star recognition. Fetisov´ and Makarov´s excellent offensive production on both international and domestic level should be noted as well. It looks to be on even a higher level for both players now, Fetisov as a d-man well over 1.0 ppg and finishing in the top 10s scoring lists everywhere, Makarov more likely the scoring leader either on international or domestic level rather than finishing merely 2nd. Overall, if I were to be forced to say who was better at this 3-year period, I´d be inclined to name Makarov. Sergei was proclaimed as the best Soviet in 1985 and best European in 1986. Fetisov the best Soviet in 1986 and that´s it, moreover - Fetisov´s very slight down-season in 1987 (just 5th in both of the main votings), while Makarov´s worse placement at this stretch was 4th in Izvestia 1987.

1984-1985 (26 y/o):
· Fetisov – did not play CC 84
- WHC 85 All-star d-man, Directoriate´s Best d-man, 13 points in 10 games, most productive d-man and also 3rd in scoring
- 2nd in SPOTY voting, 1st among d-men, Soviet all-star team. Fetisov played only 20 league games – worth to point out that he also recorded 25 points, and was 4th in the league with his 1.25 ppg
- 3rd Izvestia voting and 1st among d-men
· Makarov – CC 84 All-star RW, 7 points in 6 games, just outside top 10 scoring and 2nd most productive USSR player
- WHC 85 All-star RW, Directoriate´s Best forward, 14 points in 10 games, 1st in scoring
- 1st in SPOTY voting, Soviet all-star team, 1st in league scoring
- 2nd in Izvestia voting, 1st among forwards

1985-1986 (27 y/o):
· Fetisov – WHC 86 All-star d-man, Directoriate´s Best d-man, 15 points in 10 games, most productive d-man and also 3rd in scoring
- 1st in SPOTY voting, Soviet all-star team, 8th in league scoring too
- 4th in Izvestia voting, 1st among d-men
· Makarov – WHC 86 All-star RW, 18 points in 10 games, 1st in scoring
- 2nd in SPOTY voting, 1st among forwards, Soviet all-star team, 1st in league scoring
- 1st in Izvestia voting

1986-1987 (28 y/o):
· Fetisov – WHC 87 All-star d-man, 10 points in 10 games, most productive d-man and 10th in scoring
- 5th in SPOTY voting, 1st among d-men, Soviet all-star team, 9th or 10th in league scoring
- 5th in Izvestia voting, 1st among d-men
· Makarov – WHC 87 All-star RW, 14 points in 10 games, 2nd in scoring
- 3rd in SPOTY voting, 2nd among forwards, Soviet all-star team, 1st in league scoring
- 4th in Izvestia voting, 3rd among forwards
_______________________________

I´d say that Fetisov seemed to age a little bit better than Makarov during their last two seasons in Europe actually. Fetisov delivered an outstanding performance for the CC 1987 (all-star recognition), outplayed Makarov at OG 88, and - unlike during his early 80s peak seasons - European voters granted Fetisov with a lot honours, as he won the "best player in Europe" award twice in a row - 1988 and 1989. Though Makarov is definitely not far behind, he won his third "Soviet MVP" in 1989 and his 9th Soviet league scoring title in 1989 too.

1987-1988 (29 y/o):
· Fetisov – CC 87 All-star d-man, 7 points in 9 games, 9th in scoring
- 13 points in 8 at OG 88, most productive d-man and also 2nd in scoring, no individual awards were given or voted for any 80´s Olympics
- 2nd in SPOTY voting, 1st among d-men, Soviet all-star team
- 1st Izvestia voting
· Makarov – 15 points in 9 games at CC, the highest scoring Soviet player and 3rd in overall scoring. Although no award recognition this time, as Lemieux, Gretzky and Krutov got into the tournament´s All-star team.
- 11 points in 8 games at OG 88, 6th in scoring, no individual awards were given or voted for any 80´s Olympics
- 4th in SPOTY voting, 3rd among forwards, Soviet all-star team, 1st in league scoring
- 3rd in Izvestia voting, 2nd among forwards

1988-1989 (30 y/o):
· Fetisov – WHC 89 All-star d-man, Directoriate´s Best d-man, 6 points in 10 games
- 3rd in SPOTY voting, 1st among d-men, no Soviet all-star teams were determined this season, also looks like Fetisov went through another injury, as he played only 23 league games (out of 44) while scoring 18 points
- 1st in Izvestia voting
· Makarov – WHC 89 All-star RW, 8 points in 10 games, outside top 10 scoring and 4th highest scoring Soviet
- 1st in SPOTY voting, no Soviet all-star teams were determined this season, 1st in league scoring (Makarov´s 9th league scoring title now)
- 3rd in Izvestia voting, 1st among forwards

I also decided to include just their first NHL season too, what these players did after 1991 is, I think well known around here, more easily to look up and I don´t want to make this post any longer than necessary. It is obvious that Makarov did a lot better than Fetisov in his initial NHL season, even in NHL playoffs too. But it´s interesting to see that Fetisov after that continued to expand his World championship´s collection of individual trophies (WHC ´90 all-star team), Makarov was at this time outplayed by even his right wing Soviet teammates Khomutov and Bure and he did not get his WHC All-star RW nod for the first time since 1978.

1989-1990 (31 y/o):
· Fetisov – 42 points in 72 games (+9) in NHL reg. season
- 2 points in 6 games (-5) in NHL playoffs
- 10 points in 8 games at WHC 90, WHC all-star d-man and 10th in scoring
- 8th in Calder voting with one 3rd place vote
- no votes in SPOTY voting for obvious reasons and Izvestia voting was not conducted after 1989
· Makarov – 86 points in 80 games (+33) in NHL reg. season, 30th in scoring
- 6 points in 6 games (+3) in NHL playoffs
- 3 points in 7 games at WHC 90, no award recognition – for the first time since Makarov was a teenager, he was not named as WHC all-star RW (1st and 2nd AS-RW were A. Khomutov and Pavel Bure)
- 1st in Calder voting, 10th in NHL AS-RW voting with one 3rd place vote
- no votes in SPOTY voting for obvious reasons and Izvestia voting was not conducted after 1989
____________________________

My overall impression is that there isn´t a noteworthy separation between peak Fetisov and peak Makarov and thus Makarov comes ahead simply by his significantly better 1979-1981 stretch and then by his partially better NHL adjustments and results.

 

[pappyline]

Espo was often benched in the playoffs for Chicago. I remember a game where Bobby Hull was moved to center and Dennis Hull was moved to his LW spot. Espo rode the bench.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Espo was often benched in the playoffs for Chicago. I remember a game where Bobby Hull was moved to center and Dennis Hull was moved to his LW spot. Espo rode the bench.

Espo's issues in Chicago and with the coach eventually got him traded to Boston. Last laugh goes to...

Here's what Bruins' Assistant GM Milt Schmidt said regarding the trade he took from Tommy Ivan (who thought he was fleecing Boston by acquiring coveted defenseman Gilles Marotte):

“He was one guy (Esposito), when Tommy Ivan mentioned his name, I almost fell through the floor,” said Schmidt. “He was never mentioned before.
“Ivan said, ‘He can’t get along with Billy Reay, our coach, and he’s causing a little problem there.’ I said, ‘I think I can put up with that problem.’
“All I can say is thank goodness for Billy Reay.”

 

[Canadiens1958]

Except Makarov. I guess his Calgary playoffs can be called "blemish," but... I really don't know.


Larionov was quite successful without Fetisov, in both San Jose and Detroit.

What did San Jose win that was noteworthy?

 

[seventieslord]

for the life of me: what does Clarke have over ineligibles ( like Yzerman)?

Like, freakishly good defense. Arguably the best defensive forward of all-time. I don't think there's anyone who can make a better statistical case for that title, at least.

Who compares in PPG average (to use a Crosby metric) to Cyclone in the PCHA

No one. It's not even close.

In the nha? He was a defenseman so a lot of players outdoors him. But no defensemen.

Sawchuk: How does the fact that he has the same number of 1st & 2nd all star berths as Brodeur and yet more Stanley Cups with stellar numbers in victories for two franchises (1954 Detroit, 1967 Toronto) count in his favour? And how much can one ignore the accolades and respect he has garnered among knowledgeable hockey minds?

Interesting questions. I'm working on some numbers right now. I expect to present today. The main focus is Brodeur but I think this rehabilitates Sawchuk's resume, too.

 

[seventieslord]

Not only that - but he beat Bobby Orr to the Hart as his teammate - which is an insane feat.

We should not use the opinions of people who were clearly wrong to bolster our cases.

 

[Captain Bowie]

More like "between Esposito and Sakic." Come on, man, Sakic didn't come close to Espo's offense!

They were talking about defensive play...

 

[Killion]

Espo was often benched in the playoffs for Chicago. I remember a game where Bobby Hull was moved to center and Dennis Hull was moved to his LW spot. Espo rode the bench.

Indeed he was (Benched with some frequency). 1965 I recall Chicago having problems with Detroit, Reay unhappy with not just Esposito but all of his Centers including Mikita. He Benched Phil citing a "back problem" though how real that was anyones guess, moving Bobby Hull to Centre & pairing him up with Chico Maki & Camille Henry.

 

[MXD]

I have a question about each. In original first-name alphabetical order:

Clarke: Having just two 1st team, two 2nd team all star selections, ... only three top-5 in point seasons,... Never top 10 in goals... just five times top-5 in assists.... once a Selke winner... a dirty play artist known to need goon backup to finish what he started... for the life of me: what does Clarke have over ineligibles ( like Yzerman)?

Trottier: Do his two Stanley Cup championship contributions in Pittsburgh as a veteran role player amount to anything in this?

Cyclone: 1. Does a career of 7-11 great seasons equal one of 12-16 in modern times? 2. Who compares in PPG average (to use a Crosby metric) to Cyclone in the PCHA or NHA?

Hall: Did you know that not only did Glenn get selected for the 1st or 2nd all-star honors a record 11 times during the star-laden O6 era, but none of those include the year he won the Conn Smythe (1968) nor the year he backstopped a Game 7 Stanley Cup Final run in which he led in wins, saves and shots against (1965)?!

Sakic: Should he be compared more to Nighbor and Messier or to Forsberg and Yzerman?

Brodeur: He was three times a 1st team all star (over Luongo twice, Turco once), and yet how impressive are compiler stats that come with a long career on a good team?

Bossy: How great is his goals per shot average to his sniper image?

Esposito: How long can a six-time 1st in goals, seven-time top-2 in assists modern offensive talent go without induction?

Makarov: How significant is 16 goals, 31 points over the 1981, 1984 and 1987 Canada Cups?

Sawchuk: How does the fact that he has the same number of 1st & 2nd all star berths as Brodeur and yet more Stanley Cups with stellar numbers in victories for two franchises (1954 Detroit, 1967 Toronto) count in his favour? And how much can one ignore the accolades and respect he has garnered among knowledgeable hockey minds?

Fetisov: Is it significant that the IIHF voted Fetisov overwhelmingly for its Centennial All-star Team with 54 votes? The next closest was Gretzky with 38. Makarov is on the squad with 18 votes.

I'm open to some serious replies.

Clarke : Already answered by seventieslord.

Trottier : I'd say it could prove that he was good enough to continue playing in this league after his numbers dwindled. The flipside is, it's someting that would probably have been taken for granted had he played elsewhere. What he brought as a role player was something he had brought beforehand.

Cyclone : Had he started 10 years later, yes. But he didn't, so no, and I'm not even sure 7-11 equals 7-11.

Hall : Things I had already taken in consideration.

Sakic : He should be compared to Esposito and Trottier.

Brodeur : Do you dislike him for the good reasons or the bad reasons?

Esposito : He's not a goalie and he's not Bobby Clarke. Other than that, he's fair game.

Makarov : Very very very much

Sawchuk : Many so-called knowledgeable people are on record saying Carey Price is still a great netminder, despite being nothing of the sorts in the last two years. Sawchuk is experiencing the same, but on top of that, the only real success he had was a on a dynasty, and was outplayed by Bower in Toronto except for a specific stretch.

Fetisov : I must say that I'm a bit perplexed by this. It is relevant. But he was also CCCP's best D-Men by a country mile (and one didn't have to be THAT good to get such a title).

 

[DannyGallivan]

Fetisov : I must say that I'm a bit perplexed by this. It is relevant. But he was also CCCP's best D-Men by a country mile (and one didn't have to be THAT good to get such a title).

Hence, this is why I have Makarov considerably above Fetisov.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Look, Esposito benefited from Orr. Every Bruin of the late 60's and early 70's did. You can see a pre and post Bobby Orr correlation with Phil and it's abundantly clear his numbers would not have been the same had 4 never existed. We can argue how much of an impact and that battle will go on forever. That doesn't mean Esposito was a bum or didn't put up good, and even great numbers without Orr. As always, some context is needed. That's it.

Same story with folks like Kurri (he was always a great defensive player, but his offense was certainly enhanced by 99) and Anderson with Gretzky. Kevin Stevens and Mario Lemieux. Hockey history is littered with players who were bolstered by the presence of an otherworldly player. Timing is everything.

Now, for my money can anyone beat a murderers row of Ted Lindsay, Sid Abel, Gordie Howe?

 

[Canadiens1958]

I have a question about each. In original first-name alphabetical order:

Clarke: Having just two 1st team, two 2nd team all star selections, ... only three top-5 in point seasons,... Never top 10 in goals... just five times top-5 in assists.... once a Selke winner... a dirty play artist known to need goon backup to finish what he started... for the life of me: what does Clarke have over ineligibles ( like Yzerman)?

Trottier: Do his two Stanley Cup championship contributions in Pittsburgh as a veteran role player amount to anything in this?

Cyclone: 1. Does a career of 7-11 great seasons equal one of 12-16 in modern times? 2. Who compares in PPG average (to use a Crosby metric) to Cyclone in the PCHA or NHA?

Hall: Did you know that not only did Glenn get selected for the 1st or 2nd all-star honors a record 11 times during the star-laden O6 era, but none of those include the year he won the Conn Smythe (1968) nor the year he backstopped a Game 7 Stanley Cup Final run in which he led in wins, saves and shots against (1965)?!

Sakic: Should he be compared more to Nighbor and Messier or to Forsberg and Yzerman?

Brodeur: He was three times a 1st team all star (over Luongo twice, Turco once), and yet how impressive are compiler stats that come with a long career on a good team?

Bossy: How great is his goals per shot average to his sniper image?

Esposito: How long can a six-time 1st in goals, seven-time top-2 in assists modern offensive talent go without induction?

Makarov: How significant is 16 goals, 31 points over the 1981, 1984 and 1987 Canada Cups?

Sawchuk: How does the fact that he has the same number of 1st & 2nd all star berths as Brodeur and yet more Stanley Cups with stellar numbers in victories for two franchises (1954 Detroit, 1967 Toronto) count in his favour? And how much can one ignore the accolades and respect he has garnered among knowledgeable hockey minds?

Fetisov: Is it significant that the IIHF voted Fetisov overwhelmingly for its Centennial All-star Team with 54 votes? The next closest was Gretzky with 38. Makarov is on the squad with 18 votes.

I'm open to some serious replies.

Gretzky in the same three Canada Cups, scored 13G and 32A. More assists than Makarov had points.Not raised when Gretzky was discussed.

Fetisov. IIHF Centennial Team:

IIHF Centennial All-Star Team - Wikipedia

Three points.

Composition of the International voting panel is known and defined.

Fetisov's positional domination,vote share is incredible.

Makarov is not considered the first winger. Behind a player that is not eligible.

 

[DannyGallivan]

They were talking about defensive play...

Which would be a more relevant point in Sakic's favour over Esposito IF Sakic was reasonably close to Esposito in most other categories (he's not).

 

[DannyGallivan]

Gretzky in the same three Canada Cups, scored 13G and 32A. More assists than Makarov had points.Not raised when Gretzky was discussed.

Wasn't necessary to raise it.

 

[MXD]

Hot take : Esposito is basically Terry Sawchuk, except he was a forward and did his elite thing for about twice as long and didn't have terrible stretches of badness during his thing.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Right now, now biggest question mark is Sakic vs Clarke. Been flip-flopping a bit between the two.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Indeed he was (Benched with some frequency). 1965 I recall Chicago having problems with Detroit, Reay unhappy with not just Esposito but all of his Centers including Mikita. He Benched Phil citing a "back problem" though how real that was anyones guess, moving Bobby Hull to Centre & pairing him up with Chico Maki & Camille Henry.

Back problem was a euphamism for weak skaters who only saw the backs of others.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

Question about Sakic and Forsberg playing on separate lines. Was it Sakic that got the other team's defensive specialists most of the time, or the other way around? Maybe 50/50? When I look at Lafleur or Espo or Trottier/Bossy, I know that they were always facing the other team's best checkers, shadows, etc. When you have two elite centers, one of them must be benefiting from facing a more favourable match-up.

Overpass already supplied some great details, but I would say that the quick-and-dirty answer to the Forsberg/Sakic matchup question is that when their own coach controlled the matchups, Sakic and Forsberg had basically identical numbers over the period they played together, but when the other coach controlled the matchup Forsberg significantly outperformed Sakic.

Colorado, Regular Season, 1994-95 to 2003-04:
(Numbers Presented on a Per-82 Game Basis)

1995-04		HOME			ROAD
Per 82	GP	Pts	+/-	GP	Pts	+/-
Sakic	82	104	29	82	94	2
Forsberg	82	103	32	82	107	26
COL #3C	82	28	2	82	25	-2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I don't really see how that comes out being all that favourable to Sakic. If he did face checking lines more often on the road, then it probably meant Forsberg was busy dominating the other team's top line in their own rink. And if Sakic went against the top lines more often on the road, then it meant that the other teams were generally more worried about stopping Forsberg (yet still not very successful at all in terms of actually doing it). If the only differentiating factor was the matchup, then we'd expect to see the guy who drew more checking lines to have lower scoring numbers but probably a better plus/minus, and the guy who drew more top lines to have a bit better scoring numbers but a worse plus/minus. Instead, Forsberg is on a whole different level across the board while away from Colorado.

I'm pretty strongly in the "Forsberg was just a better player than Sakic" camp. I think the more important consideration for judging the two of them against each other was not their competition, but their linemates and how their own coach deployed them, given that several of Sakic's best years were built on him racking up the points on home ice alongside the team's best wingers (and when Forsberg took over a similar offence-focused role in 2003 he suddenly at age 29 started winning individual trophies and being seen as the best player in the world). It's important that Sakic did prove in his later career that he could handle being deployed in tougher minutes at home while still scoring pretty well on the road, but I still don't necessarily rate Sakic all that highly yet at this point of the project.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Esposito is basically Terry Sawchuk, except he was a forward and did his elite thing for about twice as long and didn't have terrible stretches of bad when that happened.

That's like saying that Melissa McCarthy is the same as Carrie Underwood, except for her looks, singing ability and height.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Back problem was a euphamism for weak skaters whoonly saw the backs of others.

I thought it was for players who were enigmas for poor coaches.

 

[MXD]

That's like saying that Melissa McCarthy is the same as Carrie Underwood, except for her looks, singing ability and height.

That's indeed exactly that.