Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 5

[ImporterExporter]

No Nighbor talk this round?

The guy ain't inducted yet.

Hope we're not overlooking him.

He had a ton of discussion last round and some at the beginning this time. I know BB posted up some lengthy, quality matieral.

He's in my top 3 and somebody I consider a lock at this point.

 

[MXD]

I don't know what makes Nighbor such an important player, in and of himself, that there HAS be some discussion about him, and why it would be more problematic for him (than for any other player) to be forgotten.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Oh, for sure, I make no bones about that...he played in a defensive system...but not all of them are created equally...people just assign a buzzword to it "the trap" and just dismiss it out of hand, that's a dearth of hockey knowledge if you're doing that (royal you)...

But when the Devils stopped playing that way, he got Vezinas and Vezina love and went to a Cup Final with a "meh" team at the age of 200...he crossed eras and shone brightly in all of them...I had him at #19 on my list, my second goalie overall...it's a shame they broke the mold after him, there isn't one guy on the horizon that plays like him, he couldn't even teach his kid his style...

I put the pillows on the other day for practice (for the first time in a long, long while) because our backup goalie had surgery...the entire time, I was thinking "what would Marty do here?" - I'm sliding across with one leg down, I'm making pokechecks all day, remaining standing against the post so I don't give up that short side high goal that every goalie gives up these days (may be the #1 reason scoring is up in the league...reverse VH and the amount of players who practice and can make that short side high shot these days...that's for another thread though)...I'm sure I looked nothing like him, but in my head, that's what I was going for haha...I owe him a ton for my understanding of the game...

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't know what makes Nighbor such an important player, in and of himself, that there HAS be some discussion about him, and why it would be more problematic for him (than for any other player) to be forgotten.

A quick search, in this thread, Nighbor was mentioned over 120 times, I think Fetisov was at 80-something...that's not exactly comprehensive, but the suggestion - from someone who voted out of the time bounds haha - that we need to be talking more about a player who probably should have slid in last time is a little haughty...

 

[VanIslander]

Yeah, probably...it's so odd to read people punish Brodeur for being a "system goalie"...then not do it for many others and then also put save pct. on a pedestal...

Indeed, save % should NOT be put on a pedestal.

It's as reliable as +/-. In other words, it could be the result of great individual play OR team play.

Some teams limit quality scoring chances, forcing the opposition to take bad angle shots and shots from the point. Some teams clear the crease well, reducing opportunities for screens, deflections and rebounds.

The number of times Brodeur was a game's three-star selection for "earning" a shutout when the opposition were limited in shots and frustrated at every turn by the skaters and coaching in New Jersey,... arggh!!!!

The Devils had a great defensive system at the time and Brodeur WAS a beneficiary of it. Admitting THAT in no way insults him any more than talk of Orr's contributions to Esposito's success.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I think, as someone else prominent pointed out, up until Howie Morenz's star took off, Nighbor was the greatest pro hockey player in the world, of all time time, with Cyclone Taylor in the mix. Hell, Morenz himself called Nightbor the best, as did numerous others. So nearly 3 decades worth of hockey to track.

Somewhere in the early 20's is where he really ought to be IMHO, hence why I have him as a top 3 player now.

But there was quite a bit of discussion on him last round, I think most of the pro's and con's were hashed out already.

 

[Michael Farkas]

You started off strong and then kind of patronized Brodeur by putting "earning" in quotation marks...odd post. Brodeur was the best player on those teams, he drove the ship from the crease...

 

[BenchBrawl]

Voted.

Sorry for the minimal participation this week, been busy.This will happen sporadically.

 

[ImporterExporter]

You started off strong and then kind of patronized Brodeur by putting "earning" in quotation marks...odd post. Brodeur was the best player on those teams, he drove the ship from the crease...

Yeah, all due respect to Stevens, but those NJ teams best player was Marty, year in and year out. You don't often see that with goalies. And yet it was the case for more than a few years!

 

[The Macho King]

Are we going to address that 2 of Broduers Vezinas should have gone to Luongo?

 

[MXD]

I think, as someone else prominent pointed out, up until Howie Morenz's star took off, Nighbor was the greatest pro hockey player in the world, of all time time, with Cyclone Taylor in the mix. Hell, Morenz himself called Nightbor the best, as did numerous others. So nearly 3 decades worth of hockey to track.

Somewhere in the early 20's is where he really ought to be IMHO, hence why I have him as a top 3 player now.

But there was quite a bit of discussion on him last round, I think most of the pro's and con's were hashed out already.

I don't quite see what makes him better than Lalonde in the first few years of the NHA, to be honest. Circumstances-based to a certain extent, but still.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Are we going to address that 2 of Broduers Vezinas should have gone to Luongo?

Which years?

I REALLY hope you don't mean 06-07 as one of them. I already pointed out that Brodeur was amazing that year, faced more shots than anyone included Luongo. Numbers were essentially identical yet Marty had 12 shutouts to 5 for Luongo.

NHL.com - Stats

Vancouver was a stacked team that had 105 points. NJ had 107, so neither can argue they were back stopping inferior teams.

Brodeur was 34 at the time. Luongo 27. I'm more impressed with the older guy posting those numbers than Luongo who was in his prime.

But even IF you take away 2 Vezina's for Marty does it REALLY change Brodeur's case much? Say you bump those wins down to runner up's?

His Vezina record would still be:

1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5

 

[Michael Farkas]

This will be fun to dredge up...

In my post about Jagr, I said, "ya know, he's really a 3x MVP...because he missed four games too many or whatever in 2000 when he was clearly the best...and one of the worst trade in history cost him two and I'm not holding it against him really..."

Same here. For whatever reason if people believe that Luongo deserved two of Brodeur's Vezinas, it doesn't change my vote any...they basically tied in 2007, and I'm guessing the other one is 2004 where because Luongo played for a dog **** team and faced a ton of shots that he had a high save pct. and therefore was better (*Ace Ventura mocking laugh*), fine, whatever, he didn't finish above Kiprusoff either, but in any event...it doesn't even slightly alter my thinking...nor would it alter it if Brodeur didn't have those two Vezinas...

If we're going to play that game though, my wishlist for Marty includes the 2003 Conn Smythe (3 shutouts in the Final, 7 shutouts in 16 games...didn't give up 20 goals in the Final...didn't wear a mattress...smell ya later Jiggy)...and, uh, (here's where I lose what's left of my audience), let me get a recount on the 1997 Vezina too...Hasek for MVP is fine, I wouldn't mind taking another cut at Brodeur for best goalie though, they're different awards in my eyes...

 

[MXD]

Are we going to address that 2 of Broduers Vezinas should have gone to Luongo?

I addressed that issue by ranking Luongo at the high-end of the bottom third in Round I.

Luongo should indeed have won the Vezina in 03-04.

06-07 could've gone either way. Like, someone had to win, and someone had to be second.

 

[Michael Farkas]

^ and that's my cue to exit...

 

[MXD]

... Totally unrelated to these proceedings -- what's with goalies getting support for the Lady Byng?

 

[ImporterExporter]

Haha, there is literally no argument for Luongo over Brodeur in 06-07. Close? Sure. But the numbers don't support it. And both played on 2 of the best teams in the entire league at the time. Marty was much older, which is more impressive to me. Not the dead puck era so no whiny narrative about Marty facing far fewer shots either.

Luongo is underrated all time (maybe we'll get to that point down the line) but especially in 06-07 it's absurd to say he was robbed of the Vezina, IMO.

 

[The Macho King]

Anyway - Brodeur is the Lidstrom of goalies for me. I'm not terribly impressed by his peak, I think he played 95% of his career behind a pretty great team, his team was insane defensively, and he is at least partially to blame for ruining hockey for 10 years.

I don't think I have him at the top half of this round. I also am not sure I put Brodeur over Hall (over I do have him over Sawchuk).

 

[The Macho King]

Haha, there is literally no argument for Luongo over Brodeur in 06-07. Close? Sure. But the numbers don't support it. And both played on 2 of the best teams in the entire league at the time. Marty was much older, which is more impressive to me. Not the dead puck era so no whiny narrative about Marty facing far fewer shots either.

Luongo is underrated all time (maybe we'll get to that point down the line) but especially in 06-07 it's absurd to say he was robbed of the Vezina, IMO.

Vancouver did improve like 15 points bringing Lu onto the roster, despite Naslund slowing down and no Bertuzzi.

 

[VanIslander]

Gawd, I hope Luongo doesn't make the list.

(Loved Lu on the cup run for my Canucks. He and Kesler rocked it, with the twins inconsistent.)

 

[ImporterExporter]

Anyway - Brodeur is the Lidstrom of goalies for me. I'm not terribly impressed by his peak, I think he played 95% of his career behind a pretty great team, his team was insane defensively, and he is at least partially to blame for ruining hockey for 10 years.

I don't think I have him at the top half of this round. I also am not sure I put Brodeur over Hall (over I do have him over Sawchuk).

This is fair. I won't hate on folks who don't have Marty in their top 4. Personal opinion is perfectly fine. I just hope he's not placed in 9th, 10th or 11th.

But to be fair, MM, I actually have said I like the Lidstrom comparison. Doesn't have the peak of a few others but it's VERY hard to find a goalie who was good to great for as long as Brodeur was. And Lidstrom is off the board already, sooooooo.

 

[The Macho King]

This is fair. I won't hate on folks who don't have Marty in their top 4. Personal opinion is perfectly fine. I just hope he's not placed in 9th, 10th or 11th.

But to be fair, MM, I actually have said I like the Lidstrom comparison. Doesn't have the peak of a few others but it's VERY hard to find a goalie who was good to great for as long as Brodeur was. And Lidstrom is off the board already, sooooooo.

One of the things that separates them is for a long stretch Lidstrom was easily the best Dman in the league. Brodeur's stretch at the top of the position is shorter, and I don't think he had that consistently long stretch where he was the best *the whole time* (if that makes sense - for some reason continuity of peak is a factor that weighs for me).

 

[ImporterExporter]

Gawd, I hope Luongo doesn't make the list.

(Loved Lu on the cup run for my Canucks. He and Kesler rocked it, with the twins inconsistent.)

Agreed. Underrated all time but not worthy of this project.

 

[The Macho King]

Agreed. Underrated all time but not worthy of this project.

I had him in the 100-120 stretch. I think you could make an argument for sneaking in the 90s or something without it being embarrassing, but yeah - wouldn't be my pick.

 

[ImporterExporter]

One of the things that separates them is for a long stretch Lidstrom was easily the best Dman in the league. Brodeur's stretch at the top of the position is shorter, and I don't think he had that consistently long stretch where he was the best *the whole time* (if that makes sense - for some reason continuity of peak is a factor that weighs for me).

Ah, but it's important to remember sir who was Lidstrom's main comp?

Then ask yourself who was Marty facing for top dawg in the crease?

Roy, Hasek and Belfour.