Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 5

[The Macho King]

How much should defensive two-way play be valued as a plus, or/and? lack of checking be a minus.

Brett Hull won multiple Rocket Richards and Bill Cowley won multiple Hart trophies WITHOUT ANY DEFENSIVE RESPONSIBILITY. They both admitted not checking. Hull said it wasn't his style or role and that others on the ice brought a defensive skillset.

I think of a "plus" or "minus" is kind of...

Idontknow, weird? It should be something considered. Producing good offensive numbers while also shutting down the opposition seems obviously a positive, and focusing only on scoring to the lack of defense seems like an obvious negative. Balance it. Figure it out.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I'm out now but will respond to a few posts later.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Ranking Sawchuk the 6th best goalie ever is completely consistent with him being the best ever as of 1959.

Plante and especially Hall did way more than Sawchuk did after 1959.

That said, I do remember that most "old timers" considered Sawchuk the best ever before Roy broke his wins record. But how many who said that actually watched his full career and how many just knew he (at the time) held both records for most wins and most shutouts?

 

[ted2019]

My Friday afternoon and really nothing has changed except that I narrowed things down a bit.
1. Frank Nighbor
2. Viacheslav Fetisov
3. Mark Messier
4. Glenn Hall/Alex Ovechkin/Stan Mikita/Guy Lafleur (not in any order)
8. Phil Esposito
9. Marty Brodeur
10. Bobby Clarke
11. Terry Sawchuk

 

[ImporterExporter]

And that's the thing. There is no metric or contemporary narrative that will paint Sawchuk as superior to Hall after that point in time. In 1950 the Canadian Press said Richard was already better all time than Cyclone Taylor and Frank Nighbor. Absurdity.

Consistency matters a lot to me among goalies.

Sawchuk, simply put, was more up and down than Hall or Marty B. I don't see how that isn't abundantly clear.

 

[MXD]

... The more things goes, the more I think people calling Sawchuk "The Best Goalie as of 1959" were no different than people ranking Crosby a better player than Gordie Howe.

If anyone did such a thing of course.

 

[wetcoast]

An alternative view, that I would support,is how many 1980s forwards were brought down to Lafleur's level where a lack of defensive acumen becomes an asset or badge of honour.

Alternative universe perhaps.

Compared to what exactly?

The 70s where hardly the golden age of defensive hockey or even competivness for that matter?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Alternative universe perhaps.

Compared to what exactly?

The 70s where hardly the golden age of defensive hockey or even competivness for that matter?

Just more defensive than the 1980s. Prime Clarke, Gainey, Jarvis, Lemaire, Luce, Ramsay, Marcotte, Middleton, Trottier, Tkaczuk,...down to players on average to weak teams like Patey, Libett,etc

Plus 1960s holdovers, Henri Richard, Mikita, Nevin, Marshall, etc.

1980s??? Dave Keon hung around for a couple of years due to his defensive skills instead of playing oldtimer hockey.

 

[wetcoast]

How much should defensive two-way play be valued as a plus, or/and? lack of checking be a minus.

Brett Hull won multiple Rocket Richards and Bill Cowley won multiple Hart trophies WITHOUT ANY DEFENSIVE RESPONSIBILITY. They both admitted not checking. Hull said it wasn't his style or role and that others on the ice brought a defensive skillset.

I think 2 way play or defensive play for a forward is a plus but we need to be carefull not to over rate it as well because the reality is that goalies and defensemen have more impact on defending than forwards do.

 

[wetcoast]

My Friday afternoon and really nothing has changed except that I narrowed things down a bit.
1. Frank Nighbor
2. Viacheslav Fetisov
3. Mark Messier
4. Glenn Hall/Alex Ovechkin/Stan Mikita/Guy Lafleur (not in any order)
8. Phil Esposito
9. Marty Brodeur
10. Bobby Clarke
11. Terry Sawchuk

My list would be different but I can see a method here.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

The crap some people try to spread about OV is hilarious. "he's been on 3 president trophy winning teams but he never passed the 2nd round!" first of all, it's the Washington capitals, not Washington Ovechkin's. 2nd, I thought people here would use some context rather than spitting crap like on the main boards. Check the 3 PT teams.

09/10: OV had 10pts in 7 GP. Was it his fault that Semin and Green combined for zero goals in the series?

15/16: 12pts in 12 GP, lost to the eventual champs. OV had more pts in the caps/pens series than Crosby and Malkin COMBINED. Not sure what else people wanted him to do, probably play goalie too?

16/17: 8pts in 13 GP, lost to the champs again. Yes he could have done more this year, but he wasn't bad either. Also he was playing with an injured wrist from the midway point of the season and his knee was shot by Kadri in the 1st round.

Overall since he entered the league OV is 4th in playoff PPG (behind Crosby, Malkin, Kane) and 1st in GPG (among players with 40+ GP). All time among players with 100+ GP he is 22nd in PPG and 9th in GPG which definitely isn't a "negative". Keep in mind 25%+ of his GP came against a prime Lundqvist who is the best goalie of the generation. He has a smythe with 15 goals which is the highest total of the era. He is absolutely one of the best playoff performers of his era and one of the best playoff goalscorers ever and the stats prove it. It makes absolutely zero sense to look at how the team performed and hold that against him. His job is to put up pts/goals and the numbers are right there to prove that he did. I honestly have no idea how anyone can say a player who is 1st in GPG and 4th in PPG for his era gets a "negative" for HIS playoff performance. The team didn't perform, but he did. And this is a ranking of the best/greatest players, not teams.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Ovechkin (13 seasons)--Lafleur (17 seasons)

Hart: 3--2
Finalist: 5--4
Top 10: 8--6
Lindsay: 3--3
Smythe: 1--1
Ross: 1--3
Top 10 pts: 8--6
PPG leader: 3--3
Top 10 PPG: 8--7
Rocket: 7--1
Top 10 goals: 11--6
GPG leader: 8--1
Top 10 GPG: 11--6
AST (1st+2nd): 10--6
Awards: 16--10

Ovechkin matches Lafleurs peak, but blows him away in length of prime and longevity. Lafleur had 6 seasons as an elite player, OV is working on his 12th. Double. ~500 extra games of elite play. That more than makes up for Lafleur being better in the playoffs when he had the benefit of playing on a dynasty in one of the most watered down eras in history.

Ovechkin is easily ahead of Lafleur.

 

[The Macho King]

The crap some people try to spread about OV is hilarious. "he's been on 3 president trophy winning teams but he never passed the 2nd round!" first of all, it's the Washington capitals, not Washington Ovechkin's. 2nd, I thought people here would use some context rather than spitting crap like on the main boards. Check the 3 PT teams.

09/10: OV had 10pts in 7 GP. Was it his fault that Semin and Green combined for zero goals in the series?

15/16: 12pts in 12 GP, lost to the eventual champs. OV had more pts in the caps/pens series than Crosby and Malkin COMBINED. Not sure what else people wanted him to do, probably play goalie too?

16/17: 8pts in 13 GP, lost to the champs again. Yes he could have done more this year, but he wasn't bad either. Also he was playing with an injured wrist from the midway point of the season and his knee was shot by Kadri in the 1st round.

Overall since he entered the league OV is 4th in playoff PPG (behind Crosby, Malkin, Kane) and 1st in GPG (among players with 40+ GP). All time among players with 100+ GP he is 22nd in PPG and 9th in GPG which definitely isn't a "negative". Keep in mind 25%+ of his GP came against a prime Lundqvist who is the best goalie of the generation. He has a smythe with 15 goals which is the highest total of the era. He is absolutely one of the best playoff performers of his era and one of the best playoff goalscorers ever and the stats prove it. It makes absolutely zero sense to look at how the team performed and hold that against him. His job is to put up pts/goals and the numbers are right there to prove that he did. I honestly have no idea how anyone can say a player who is 1st in GPG and 4th in PPG for his era gets a "negative" for HIS playoff performance. The team didn't perform, but he did. And this is a ranking of the best/greatest players, not teams.

Are you voting? Because I'm not interested in homers coming in and advocating for their guys, never to utter another sentence on this project again.

And it's a hell of a lot easier to accrue stats in rounds 1 (especially) and 2 (in cases not involving Ovechkin, apparently) than it is in rounds 3 and 4, so looking at raw totals doesn't do much for me.

 

[MXD]

I totally agree with the statement that Ovechkin has accomplished more at this point than Guy Lafleur did, but it's probably not necessary to stretch the definition of "elite" to a point where it can be said that Ovechkin is working on his 12th elite season to agree with that statement.

Not to mention, there's 11 players in this group. Not only the guy who happens to play at the (roughly) position as Ovechkin.

... It really irks me that I'm, in all likelihood, contributing to rank Alex Ovechkin this round when I don't see him as the best Russian-born player. It is what it is.

I'd also add that, if AO had an average playoff/important games resume for players available this round, he'd probably have been voted in LAST round.

 

[Captain Bowie]

The crap some people try to spread about OV is hilarious. "he's been on 3 president trophy winning teams but he never passed the 2nd round!" first of all, it's the Washington capitals, not Washington Ovechkin's. 2nd, I thought people here would use some context rather than spitting crap like on the main boards. Check the 3 PT teams.

09/10: OV had 10pts in 7 GP. Was it his fault that Semin and Green combined for zero goals in the series?

15/16: 12pts in 12 GP, lost to the eventual champs. OV had more pts in the caps/pens series than Crosby and Malkin COMBINED. Not sure what else people wanted him to do, probably play goalie too?

16/17: 8pts in 13 GP, lost to the champs again. Yes he could have done more this year, but he wasn't bad either. Also he was playing with an injured wrist from the midway point of the season and his knee was shot by Kadri in the 1st round.

Overall since he entered the league OV is 4th in playoff PPG (behind Crosby, Malkin, Kane) and 1st in GPG (among players with 40+ GP). All time among players with 100+ GP he is 22nd in PPG and 9th in GPG which definitely isn't a "negative". Keep in mind 25%+ of his GP came against a prime Lundqvist who is the best goalie of the generation. He has a smythe with 15 goals which is the highest total of the era. He is absolutely one of the best playoff performers of his era and one of the best playoff goalscorers ever and the stats prove it. It makes absolutely zero sense to look at how the team performed and hold that against him. His job is to put up pts/goals and the numbers are right there to prove that he did. I honestly have no idea how anyone can say a player who is 1st in GPG and 4th in PPG for his era gets a "negative" for HIS playoff performance. The team didn't perform, but he did. And this is a ranking of the best/greatest players, not teams.

I certainly agree that he has more good playoff performances that some people give him credit for, but bringing up 3 or 4 of his playoffs and his totals isn't telling the whole story. His stretch from 2012-2015 was certainly well below what was expected/needed of him, and what is expected of a player this high up on an all-time list.

The thing is we have to compare him to the other names available this round, and when looking it playoffs as a whole (as well an international performance) he lands closer to the back than the front of the pack. He has lots of other positives going his way though, and I could see him getting through on one of the last spots to go through this round. That is an incredible accomplishment in itself.

 

[The Macho King]

I totally agree with the satement that Ovechkin has accomplished more at this point than Guy Lafleur did, but it's probably not necessary to stretch the definition of "elite" to a point where it can be said that Ovechkin is working on his 12th elite season to agree with that statement.

This vote has been hard for me too, and some of it is me questioning Lafleur a bit. There wasn't a ton of top offensive talent in the league in the late 70s. You have him, Trottier/Bossy (but both were still pretty young), Dionne, and... who else? When the Oilers and the Euros come over it starts expanding more, and then later in the 80s it becomes a bonanza, but I just can't get over how shallow I feel the late 70s were in a lot of areas, and that leads me to questioning whether Lafleur's peak is as impressive as it appears at first glance.

I'm also still trying to figure out how I'm ranking Fetisov. I generally hold international play in pretty low esteem because we have so much more (and better) info from the NHL, but with him it's a lot of ways even harder for me to place than Morenz or Nighbor. I'm also finding myself thinking it is probably around time for Mikita to go, but then I'm thinking "him or Hall?" and I am back at loggerheads.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This vote has been hard for me too, and some of it is me questioning Lafleur a bit. There wasn't a ton of top offensive talent in the league in the late 70s. You have him, Trottier/Bossy (but both were still pretty young), Dionne, and... who else? When the Oilers and the Euros come over it starts expanding more, and then later in the 80s it becomes a bonanza, but I just can't get over how shallow I feel the late 70s were in a lot of areas, and that leads me to questioning whether Lafleur's peak is as impressive as it appears at first glance.

I'm also still trying to figure out how I'm ranking Fetisov. I generally hold international play in pretty low esteem because we have so much more (and better) info from the NHL, but with him it's a lot of ways even harder for me to place than Morenz or Nighbor. I'm also finding myself thinking it is probably around time for Mikita to go, but then I'm thinking "him or Hall?" and I am back at loggerheads.

Perreault, Ratelle, Sittler too. Post-Orr Esposito. Not the best ever, but decent https://www.hockey-reference.com/pl...=S&is_playoffs=N&threshhold=5&order_by=points

 

[tony d]

My weekly thoughts on this week's available players:

Alex Ovechkin- One of the best left wingers ever and top goal scorers ever as well. I'd be very surprised to see him still up for voting here next week.
Bobby Clarke- A hot debate this week should be who ranks 1st; Him, Messier or Mikita. I, myself, have Nighbor and Esposito beneath them.
Frank Nighbor- I know Nighbor gets praise around here and he was a good player. Still he'll be near the bottom of my list this week.
Glenn Hall- The first ever goalie I picked in a solo ATD. The guy is probably going to be outside my rankings this week.
Guy Lafleur- He'll rank high on my list. As evidenced by the voting here he's the 4th best right winger here.
Mark Messier- As I said with Clarke I'm interested to see who ranks 1st him, Mikita or Clarke.
Martin Brodeur- Another debate this week is what goalie ranks 1st; Him or Sawchuk. I still have Hall beneath Brodeur and Sawchuk.
Phil Esposito- Espo will be on my vote but he's going to be near the bottom. Solid player for a long time but looking at other options available I'll have Espo near the bottom.
Stan Mikita- Surprised he's still available. I have Mikita closer to the Crosby group of centres than I do this group.
Terry Sawchuk- One of my favorite goalies, nice to see him here. Will def place high on my list.
Viacheslav Fetisov- Our first Russian defenseman. I think he should place in the mid range of this week's players.

My vote will be submitted soon.

• Alex Ovechkin
• Bobby Clarke
• Frank Nighbor
• Glenn Hall
• Guy Lafleur
• Mark Messier
• Martin Brodeur
• Phil Esposito
• Stan Mikita
• Terry Sawchuk
• Viacheslav Fetisov

 

[Nick Hansen]

What if Guy Lafleur would've died in that car crash back in 1981? I know it is a dark thought. He had a injury-troubled season that year but with the 80's coming up and how that decade turned out, I could see us projecting him a bit more favorably than it actually turned out.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Are you voting? Because I'm not interested in homers coming in and advocating for their guys, never to utter another sentence on this project again.

And it's a hell of a lot easier to accrue stats in rounds 1 (especially) and 2 (in cases not involving Ovechkin, apparently) than it is in rounds 3 and 4, so looking at raw totals doesn't do much for me.

Which is a big part of what I was bringing up about the player that shall not be named anymore!

Early round performances that are looked at in a vacuum (because the team couldn't get past the 2nd round) don't do a lot for me. 1 round exits do nothing. I give Ovi a lot of credit for his 2009 play. They got bounced by the Cup winners but 8 had a great series (he and Crosby were such a treat to watch). I still grin though thinking about Ovi getting stoned early in game 7, at home, on a wide open breakaway against Fleury. Wheels completely fell off Washington after that miss by 8. Sid has a monster game 7 and the Pens move on.

But come on. Beyond 2009 and last year there is essentially zero meat on 8's playoff resume. I stand and applaud him for finally having that signature run and getting a ring (even if Kuz was clearly the star of the playoffs, especially rounds 3 and 4) but evaluating the entirety of Ovechkin's playoff record still has him somewhere around average in my book. The homers can come in here and blame all those failures (some on President trophy winning rosters) on other players and coaching but the guy wearing the C wasn't THAT good during many of those runs either.

Hard to overlook his shortcomings on team Russia as well.

I think Ovechkin is a better regular season player than Lafleur. Lafleur was a more rounded offensive player and his peak certainly higher but it's not like Ovechkin doesn't have a nice peak himself and was either the best in the world or co-best with Crosby between 2007-2010.

I've got Ovi as the 2nd greatest goal scorer ever behind Hull. And he's been an elite and consistent threat there for a long, long time. 12 times in the top 5 in that category. 7 wins. Elite.

Tough to really put much of a gap there IMO. Ovi wins on longevity. Elite all time goal scorer. Lafleur has a better offensive peak and peak playoff performance but that peak was much shorter.

When I see a peak and truly meaningful seasons as condensed as Lafleur's (basically age 23 to 28) that stretch better be on or near Bobby Orr's level to put him over somebody who's remained somewhere between elite and good as Ovechkin has. For all his flaws, Ovi is still an elite goal scorer, at age 33. Still producing above the mean offensive value.

If 8 hadn't won a Cup and Smythe last year maybe I'd keep Guy above him but i just can't anymore. It's still fairly close but Ovechkin has slid past him for me.

 

[ImporterExporter]

What if Guy Lafleur would've died in that car crash back in 1981? I know it is a dark thought. He had a injury-troubled season that year but with the 80's coming up and how that decade turned out, I could see us projecting him a bit more favorably than it actually turned out.

It's tough to tell.

Honestly he was on the wrong side of 30 at that point so he would have naturally slowed down (even Gretzky did) but I do think without the accident he would have at least had a better post 30's stretch statistically speaking. He was still on pace to be over a 100 point player in 81 and 82.

He just missed a swan song title with the Habs in 86 as well.

 

[bobholly39]

What if Guy Lafleur would've died in that car crash back in 1981? I know it is a dark thought. He had a injury-troubled season that year but with the 80's coming up and how that decade turned out, I could see us projecting him a bit more favorably than it actually turned out.

To each his own of course but to me there's always something a bit underwhelming in seeing a player with such a high peak have a significant decline.

In many ways - Gretzky declined more significantly than Lemieux ever did, and that is one dynamic that makes me like Lemieux a lot (and yes I get more games played, and no i don't rank Lemieux above Gretzky).

Bobby Orr would be extremely more unappealing to me if he had played 8 years more and declined significantly in those 8 years - say like go from unanimous best defender to a fringe top 10 defender. It shouldn't. More games/seasons played should be a positive (even a small one) or a neutral (if no real value added) but never a negative. But it's hard to get past it - if Orr had declined like that, his resume becomes less appealing.

So to take your (very dark) hypothetical literally - probably Lafleur would be looked at higher if he hadn't played after his 6 year peak and retired for whatever reason.

I still think I like him in this round - I need to resolve how I want to rate peak vs prime for some players as some players have him beat on prime (like Ovechkin), but his peak being so high i think he should make it.

 

[The Macho King]

Perreault, Ratelle, Sittler too. Post-Orr Esposito. Not the best ever, but decent Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

For some reason in my head I had Perrault in the 80s grouping but you're right. And I didn't realize that Ratelle was that productive that late in his career.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Bold one... what??? I'd like to see any data you have that lead you to that conclusion.

Bold two... that can't be right. BRB....WTF? Holy crap how have I never heard this before? However as interesting and odd as that is, it doesn't really prove a whole lot. One game out of over 1000 certainly doesn't mean much.

Bold three... Not only is 24 games an incredibly small sample size, his total minutes in a Devils uniform don't even add up to 19 full NHL games.

Bold one: As stated, an observation. No data. Eye witness (and TV) account over Brodeur's career.

Bold two: You can look it up. Devils outshot Leafs 27-6.

Bold three: Small sample because Schwab had a small career. Small sample because Brodeur's backups had little playing time.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Ranking Sawchuk the 6th best goalie ever is completely consistent with him being the best ever as of 1959.

Plante and especially Hall did way more than Sawchuk did after 1959.

That said, I do remember that most "old timers" considered Sawchuk the best ever before Roy broke his wins record. But how many who said that actually watched his full career and how many just knew he (at the time) held both records for most wins and most shutouts?

So we’re going to be critical of assessments that placed him above all others (most famously in 1998, which was reasserted by THN in 2010) because they may not have watched his full career as though it’s not enough that it was said of Terry Sawchuk in 1952 at his peak, 1959 after his prime, and 1970 after he died?

What exactly is the window for an acceptable year for quotes about Terry Sawchuk being better than everybody?

It seems less likely that these are a series of short-sighted or ill-informed people and more likely that we’re applying the standards of our time where we have 5 times as many goaltending jobs and ignoring the premium placed on peak level back then given how replaceable everyone was while simultaneously brushing off the point that being able to retain a job long enough to set those records and win Stanley Cups 15 years apart is the evidence of consistently playing at a high level that we’re saying he lacks.