Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 5

[VanIslander]

A knock on Pierre Pilote's accomplishments (among HfBoard history posters) has been the relative lack of great dmen that decade. A knock on Brodeur this century could be likewise.

In contrast, Brad Park will get some slack for playing in a decade with elite competition at his position.

I have always thought Brodeur's talent level was closer to Belfour's than it was to Roy or Hasek's.

The 2000's is said to be a "competitive" time of parity. In terms of superstars, it has seemed a clear cut below the previous few decades.

Was Brodeur a superstar? Was he the accredited default-option star of a relatively star-deficient defensively-oriented team? Isn't the truth somewhere in the middle?

Heck, I hope Tretiak or Dryden could be candidates sooner to Brodeur than later!

 

[The Macho King]

Ah, but it's important to remember sir who was Lidstrom's main comp?

Then ask yourself who was Marty facing for top dawg in the crease?

Roy, Hasek and Belfour.

90s, sure, but from 00-10 there was a lot of fluidity in who the best goalie was. Even if you contend that Brodeur comes out ahead in that stretch, it's not by a huge amount (especially as the next generation of Lu, Hank, some seasons Kipper) began to take shape.


Once again - not saying he shouldn't be in this round or that he isn't worthy of the list. He's just not a player that wows me. His main positives for me are his ability to take on an insane workload and his ability to move the puck. His knocks - I don't think he was top-tier at stopping the puck (I wish we had better goaltending numbers than just raw save percentage from that era to test that theory but I recall Brodeur giving up more than his share of softies compared to the other top guys), and I think he benefited a lot from his system.

I think I'm going to be able to finalize my list today since I have a quiet day watching hockey since my wife is pissed at me. I think Nighbor is still #1 for me this round, and Messier is finally getting a top 5 placement from me. I'll have to organize my thoughts on a lot of the others. Only sure things for me is Sawchuk, Clarke, and Ovi are going to be my bottom 3 in some order.

 

[MXD]

A knock on Pierre Pilote's accomplishments (among HfBoard history posters) has been the relative lack of great dmen that decade. A knock on Brodeur this century could be likewise.

In contrast, Brad Park will get some slack for playing in a decade with elite competition at his position.

I have always thought Brodeur's talent level was closer to Belfour's than it was to Roy or Hasek's.

The 2000's is said to be a "competitive" time of parity. In terms of superstars, it has seemed a clear cut below the previous few decades.

Was Brodeur a superstar? Was he the accredited default-option star of a relatively star-deficient defensively-oriented team? Isn't the truth somewhere in the middle?

Heck, I hope Tretiak or Dryden could be candidates sooner to Brodeur than later!

You just made the case for Brodeur even stronger as far as I'm concerned.

 

[ImporterExporter]

A knock on Pierre Pilote's accomplishments (among HfBoard history posters) has been the relative lack of great dmen that decade. A knock on Brodeur this century could be likewise.

In contrast, Brad Park will get some slack for playing in a decade with elite competition at his position.

I have always thought Brodeur's talent level was closer to Belfour's than it was to Roy or Hasek's.

The 2000's is said to be a "competitive" time of parity. In terms of superstars, it has seemed a clear cut below the previous few decades.

Was Brodeur a superstar? Was he the accredited default-option star of a relatively star-deficient defensively-oriented team? Isn't the truth somewhere in the middle?

Heck, I hope Tretiak or Dryden could be candidates sooner to Brodeur than later!

I have Pilote higher than most. And the same with Marty.

Some people are seriously underrating what Marty did, especially given the insane workload he had on his shoulders. Remember 70 or more starts in 12 seasons. Roy and Hasek combined to to do this ONCE.

 

[ImporterExporter]

You just made the case for Brodeur even stronger as far as I'm concerned.

LOL, hit the like button on my post above this please.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Was Brodeur a superstar?

Absolutely no question...yes he was.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Brodeur's stretch at the top of the position is shorter, and I don't think he had that consistently long stretch where he was the best *the whole time*

Who has done this at this position? Assuming we're talking about a 5+ year uninterrupted run? That's an awfully short list I imagine, it might contain as few as zero names even...

 

[The Macho King]

I have Pilote higher than most. And the same with Marty.

Some people are seriously underrating what Marty did, especially given the insane workload he had on his shoulders. Remember 70 or more starts in 12 seasons. Roy and Hasek combined to to do this ONCE.

I think a lot of this is because Brodeur played so much on his skates. I imagine this was a lot easier on his knees and hips than the butterfly and whatever-the-hell-you-want-to-call Hasek's style.

 

[wetcoast]

Wasn't he pretty much a wagon from 1978 to 1991 though? Then closed out his late 30's and 40 year old seasons with 3 trips to the SCF in 4 years, winning two? Given the circumstances, I struggle to fault him...though I am aware of how tenuous the situation is and ripe for interpretation because of those very circumstances...

Exactly how much credit are we going to give Fetisov and the Red Wings going to 3 SCF and winning 2 of them?

IMO any credit given to a player who was at best the 8th most important piece screams Cup counting.

That's going off the top of my head not even sure he was that important a piece.

 

[The Macho King]

Absolutely no question...yes he was.

He has a national commercial years after retirement. Star Power off da charts!

 

[ImporterExporter]

I think a lot of this is because Brodeur played so much on his skates. I imagine this was a lot easier on his knees and hips than the butterfly and whatever-the-hell-you-want-to-call Hasek's style.

I'm sure that helped but regardless, his workload was much, much larger than other goalies at the time and really in an all time sense as well.

Brodeur played in 1266 games. Next closest is Roy at 1029.

Brodeur played 74,439 minutes of hockey. Next closest is Roy at 60,214.

 

[The Macho King]

Who has done this at this position? Assuming we're talking about a 5+ year uninterrupted run? That's an awfully short list I imagine, it might contain as few as zero names even...

At a position? Lafleur obviously. Ovi at wing. Hall, Nighbor, maybe Mikita. And hell - Espo and Sawchuk as well.

In fact, the only guys that don't have that are Brodeur, Messier, and Clarke - and Messier has a pretty damn good excuse being behind 99 and 66.

 

[The Macho King]

I'm sure that helped but regardless, his workload was much, much larger than other goalies at the time and really in an all time sense as well.

Brodeur played in 1266 games. Next closest is Roy at 1029.

Brodeur played 74,439 minutes of hockey. Next closest is Roy at 60,214.

Wasn't a knock - just an observation.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

This will be fun to dredge up...

In my post about Jagr, I said, "ya know, he's really a 3x MVP...because he missed four games too many or whatever in 2000 when he was clearly the best...and one of the worst trade in history cost him two and I'm not holding it against him really..."

Same here. For whatever reason if people believe that Luongo deserved two of Brodeur's Vezinas, it doesn't change my vote any...they basically tied in 2007, and I'm guessing the other one is 2004 where because Luongo played for a dog **** team and faced a ton of shots that he had a high save pct. and therefore was better (*Ace Ventura mocking laugh*), fine, whatever, he didn't finish above Kiprusoff either, but in any event...it doesn't even slightly alter my thinking...nor would it alter it if Brodeur didn't have those two Vezinas...

If we're going to play that game though, my wishlist for Marty includes the 2003 Conn Smythe (3 shutouts in the Final, 7 shutouts in 16 games...didn't give up 20 goals in the Final...didn't wear a mattress...smell ya later Jiggy)...and, uh, (here's where I lose what's left of my audience), let me get a recount on the 1997 Vezina too...Hasek for MVP is fine, I wouldn't mind taking another cut at Brodeur for best goalie though, they're different awards in my eyes...

Three shutouts in the finals, 56 saves total in those 3 games. And you'd be hard pressed to find many difficult ones.

 

[Michael Farkas]

He was a top-4 d-man on three Cup-capable teams in his late 30's at the end of a 20-year career that included a really, really strong peak...so whatever that's worth to you. It's not the meat of the sandwich obviously...but there's worse side dishes for sure...this was just a response to his "lack of longevity" claims...he wasn't putting together Norris seasons at that time, but we're fresh out of those guys already really...so one tool you can use to help figure out what happened in a "fog of war" area (which some people consider USSR players in that category) is the adaptability of a player into an entirely different situation and how they were able to perform...

Fetisov's 1996 and 1997 seasons aren't mantle pieces in this project, that's not the point...but they help to paint a clearer picture of how good he was (for those who won't go back and watch) in his prime in a different land...

I didn't see Robbie Ftorek play in the WHA, I did see him play in the NHL...I understand why he didn't crush the NHL like he did the WHA. Him and other data points allow me to reverse engineer a picture of the quality of the WHA in its twilight years...that picture of the WHA allows me to render a verdict on how much I value the accolades that were accrued by other players in the twilight years of the WHA. That's how my mind works at least...

 

[Michael Farkas]

Three shutouts in the finals, 56 saves total in those 3 games. And you'd be hard pressed to find many difficult ones.

You remember all 56 of those saves from 15 years ago...involving a player you clearly don't care for...? Seems unlikely...if we're going to be rating goalies on the difficulty of their playoff shutouts, we have a lot of film to watch...I'm game, but I'm gonna need help...

 

[Michael Farkas]

At a position? Lafleur obviously. Ovi at wing. Hall, Nighbor, maybe Mikita. And hell - Espo and Sawchuk as well.

In fact, the only guys that don't have that are Brodeur, Messier, and Clarke - and Messier has a pretty damn good excuse being behind 99 and 66.

I meant that position specifically (goalie)...sorry, should have been more clear...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Exactly how much credit are we going to give Fetisov and the Red Wings going to 3 SCF and winning 2 of them?

IMO any credit given to a player who was at best the 8th most important piece screams Cup counting.

That's going off the top of my head not even sure he was that important a piece.

The Russian 5 falls apart without Fetisov. So he was much more important than 8th.

 

[The Macho King]

He was a top-4 d-man on three Cup-capable teams in his late 30's at the end of a 20-year career that included a really, really strong peak...so whatever that's worth to you. It's not the meat of the sandwich obviously...but there's worse side dishes for sure...this was just a response to his "lack of longevity" claims...he wasn't putting together Norris seasons at that time, but we're fresh out of those guys already really...so one tool you can use to help figure out what happened in a "fog of war" area (which some people consider USSR players in that category) is the adaptability of a player into an entirely different situation and how they were able to perform...

Fetisov's 1996 and 1997 seasons aren't mantle pieces in this project, that's not the point...but they help to paint a clearer picture of how good he was (for those who won't go back and watch) in his prime in a different land...

I didn't see Robbie Ftorek play in the WHA, I did see him play in the NHL...I understand why he didn't crush the NHL like he did the WHA. Him and other data points allow me to reverse engineer a picture of the quality of the WHA in its twilight years...that picture of the WHA allows me to render a verdict on how much I value the accolades that were accrued by other players in the twilight years of the WHA. That's how my mind works at least...

Fetisov's NHL time is disappointing (no way to frame it otherwise), but I think it is also the easiest "flaw" in a resume to excuse. Soviet system to the West, where he wasn't particularly liked even on his own team initially, and even then he was past his prime. And despite that, I still think he was pretty damn good in Detroit.

BTW - how f***ing lucky is Lidstrom to be able to have guys like Fetisov, Murphy, and Coffey to learn from in his formative years in the league?

 

[Michael Farkas]

You remember all 56 of those saves from 15 years ago...involving a player you clearly don't care for...? Seems unlikely...if we're going to be rating goalies on the difficulty of their playoff shutouts, we have a lot of film to watch...I'm game, but I'm gonna need help...

One of the first saves of the game, with no score in game 7...pass comes clean through the slot, across the net line, catch-and-release shot from a 400-goal scorer...Brodeur, reads it, doesn't over-react, catches it, no rebound...

Watch the rest of the tape and watch that slug Giguere attempt to play goalie...pucks leak through him all over the place despite wearing twice the equipment...

 

[Michael Farkas]

Fetisov's NHL time is disappointing (no way to frame it otherwise)

What was the expectation level for the 31 year old Soviet?

 

[VanIslander]

Hall is the workhorse extraordinaire.
Brodeur is second fiddle.

How much does this tune fit into the orchestra of considerations?

 

[The Macho King]

What was the expectation level for the 31 year old Soviet?

I think the expectation (reasonable or no) was he comes in and becomes one of the best D in the NHL. He was around the same age as Bourque, had been compared to Bourque for the whole decade, and then he comes over and is decidedly not Bourque.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Hall is the workhorse extraordinaire.
Brodeur is second fiddle.

How much does this tune fit into the orchestra of considerations?

Well, if you're saying that Brodeur is the 2nd most durable goalie of all time (something I have no problem with) and/or his longevity is 2nd best all time (something I have no problem with) then I guess I'll settle on second fiddle sir.

Being 2nd at something like the trait you describe only helps Brodeur here IMO.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

You remember all 56 of those saves from 15 years ago...involving a player you clearly don't care for...? Seems unlikely...if we're going to be rating goalies on the difficulty of their playoff shutouts, we have a lot of film to watch...I'm game, but I'm gonna need help...

A player I clearly don't care for?

Maybe on the same level as Eddie Shore was for you? At least I got to see Brodeur play.

Simple case of thinking Brodeur was overrated because of the situation he was in.

Led the league in wins 9 times, but in 21 seasons led the league in GAA once, never top 2 in SP%.