Not gonna lie, my body IS ready to vote Messier #1 if someone massages my brain in that direction throughout the week.
Best playoff performer this round with Plante, managed to grab two Hart with 66/99 still in their prime, all-around play, leadership, longevity.I'm not totally convinced Crosby is better.
Crosby is a better regular season player by a decent margin. Same thing on the international stage.
Scoring Finishes:
Sidney Crosby
1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6
Mark Messier
2, 3, 5, 5, 7
-It's not close. Take out Gretzky and Mario and Messier still lags well behind Crosby as a consistent top end scorer. And again, Sid lost at least 2 shoe in Art Ross titles due to deliberate/freak injuries.
Hart Trophy Voting:
Crosby:
1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5, 6
Messier:
1, 1, 2, 9, 9
-Top end is similar but Crosby blows Messier out in terms of depth.
AS Finishes:
Crosby
1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2
Messier
1, 1, 1, 2
-Again, Messier and Sid both look good in terms of peak, but Sid simply has better depth here.
TABLE 1 - BEST SEVEN YEARS, POINTS (last updated: 2018)
Wayne Gretzky | 155.6 |
Phil Esposito | 130.4 |
Gordie Howe | 125.5 |
Mario Lemieux | 119.8 |
Bobby Orr | 114.8 |
Jaromir Jagr | 114.2 |
Bobby Hull | 108.3 |
Stan Mikita | 107.8 |
Jean Beliveau | 105.7 |
Guy Lafleur | 104.5 |
Ted Lindsay | 104.4 |
Marcel Dionne | 103.3 |
Sidney Crosby | 102.4 |
Maurice Richard | 102.4 |
Howie Morenz | 102.2 |
Andy Bathgate | 101.1 |
Alex Ovechkin | 98.4 |
Joe Sakic | 97.7 |
Bill Cowley | 97.0 |
Charlie Conacher | 96.2 |
Bill Cook | 96.0 |
Joe Thornton | 95.6 |
Frank Boucher | 95.1 |
Mike Bossy | 94.8 |
Evgeni Malkin | 93.7 |
Bryan Trottier | 93.7 |
Steve Yzerman | 93.2 |
Teemu Selanne | 92.7 |
Martin St. Louis | 92.4 |
Syl Apps Sr | 92.4 |
Sweeney Schriner | 91.3 |
Bobby Clarke | 90.4 |
Max Bentley | 90.4 |
Peter Forsberg | 90.3 |
Nels Stewart | 90.3 |
Adam Oates | 90.0 |
Bernie Geoffrion | 89.9 |
Mark Messier | 89.6 |
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TABLE 2 - BEST TEN YEARS, POINTS (last updated: 2018)
Wayne Gretzky | 144.7 |
Gordie Howe | 118.1 |
Phil Esposito | 117.6 |
Mario Lemieux | 112.0 |
Jaromir Jagr | 105.9 |
Stan Mikita | 102.5 |
Bobby Hull | 101.8 |
Jean Beliveau | 100.0 |
Sidney Crosby | 99.3 |
Maurice Richard | 97.9 |
Marcel Dionne | 97.5 |
Ted Lindsay | 95.8 |
Andy Bathgate | 95.6 |
Alex Ovechkin | 94.1 |
Joe Sakic | 94.0 |
Bobby Orr | 92.1 |
Guy Lafleur | 91.0 |
Joe Thornton | 90.8 |
Mike Bossy | 89.4 |
Howie Morenz | 88.9 |
Frank Boucher | 88.8 |
Steve Yzerman | 88.8 |
Teemu Selanne | 88.7 |
Bryan Trottier | 87.2 |
Nels Stewart | 87.1 |
Bill Cowley | 86.7 |
Evgeni Malkin | 86.7 |
Martin St. Louis | 86.3 |
Adam Oates | 86.2 |
Jean Ratelle | 85.3 |
Mark Messier | 85.0 |
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-Pretty large gap in scoring averages. Sid is simply a more potent producer offensively speaking.
Results - top 300 ES VsX (1960-2017) - best seven years
1 | GRETZKY, WAYNE | 111 |
2 | JAGR, JAROMIR | 81 |
3 | ESPOSITO, PHIL | 75 |
4 | LEMIEUX, MARIO | 74 |
5 | HULL, BOBBY | 74 |
6 | LAFLEUR, GUY | 72 |
7 | MIKITA, STAN | 71 |
8 | CROSBY, SIDNEY | 70 |
9 | YZERMAN, STEVE | 68 |
10 | THORNTON, JOE | 68 |
11 | BOSSY, MIKE | 67 |
12 | OVECHKIN, ALEX | 67 |
13 | SAKIC, JOE | 66 |
14 | DIONNE, MARCEL | 66 |
15 | KURRI, JARI | 66 |
16 | ULLMAN, NORM | 66 |
17 | RICHARD, HENRI | 65 |
18 | LINDROS, ERIC | 65 |
19 | RATELLE, JEAN | 65 |
20 | IGINLA, JAROME | 65 |
21 | ST. LOUIS, MARTIN | 64 |
22 | HOWE, GORDIE | 64 |
23 | KANE, PATRICK | 64 |
24 | ORR, BOBBY | 64 |
25 | TROTTIER, BRYAN | 64 |
26 | MAHOVLICH, FRANK | 64 |
27 | LECLAIR, JOHN | 64 |
28 | BATHGATE, ANDY | 64 |
29 | SELANNE, TEEMU | 63 |
30 | MALKIN, EVGENI | 63 |
31 | ROBITAILLE, LUC | 63 |
32 | SEDIN, HENRIK | 63 |
33 | OATES, ADAM | 62 |
34 | MESSIER, MARK | 62 |
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-Even Strength Sid looks a notch better.
How about Adjusted +/-
Glossary of Terms:
SFrac: Season Fraction. 1.00 is a full season. I prefer it to games played because it gives a 48 game season, a 74 game season, an 80 game season or an 82 game season the same weight.
$ESGF: Even-strength goals for, normalized to a 200 ESG scoring environment and with estimated SH goals removed.
$ESGA: Even-strength goals against, normalized to a 200 ESG scoring environment and with estimated SH goals removed.
R-ON: Even strength GF/GA ratio when the player is on the ice.
R-OFF: Even-strength GF/GA ratio when the player is off the ice.
XEV+/-: Expected even-strength plus-minus, which is an estimate of the plus-minus that an average player would post with the same teammates. The calculation is described above.
EV+/-: Even –strength plus-minus, which is simply plus-minus with estimated shorthanded goals removed and normalized to a 200 ESG environment.
AdjEV+/-: Adjusted even-strength plus-minus, which is even-strength plus-minus minus expected even-strength plus-minus. This is the final number.
The following three stats evaluate special teams play and are not related to adjusted plus-minus. I’m including them in the table for a quick reference to the player’s contributions outside of even-strength play.
PP% : The % of the team’s power play goals for that the player was on the ice for.
SH%: The % of the team’s power play goals against that the player was on the ice for.
$PPP/G: Power play points per game, normalized to a 70 PPG environment and with pre-1988 PP assists estimated.
Results
Here are the top 100 in career adjusted even-strength plus-minus, as well as the players in the HOH Top 100 and several others who were strongly considered for voting.
Rank | Player | GP | $ESGF | $ESGA | R-ON | R-OFF | EV% | EV+/- | XEV+/- | AEV+/- | AEV+/-/82 |
1 | Jaromir Jagr | 1711 | 1794 | 1332 | 1.35 | 0.93 | 40% | 461 | -69 | 530 | 25 |
2 | Ray Bourque | 1612 | 1691 | 1231 | 1.37 | 0.95 | 42% | 460 | -48 | 508 | 26 |
3 | Bobby Orr | 657 | 1044 | 526 | 1.99 | 1.03 | 49% | 518 | 13 | 505 | 63 |
4 | Wayne Gretzky | 1487 | 1893 | 1492 | 1.27 | 1.04 | 47% | 401 | 39 | 362 | 20 |
5 | Larry Robinson | 1384 | 1632 | 1022 | 1.60 | 1.34 | 43% | 611 | 250 | 360 | 21 |
6 | Nicklas Lidstrom | 1564 | 1682 | 1189 | 1.41 | 1.17 | 41% | 493 | 149 | 344 | 18 |
7 | Joe Thornton | 1446 | 1269 | 955 | 1.33 | 0.96 | 35% | 314 | -28 | 342 | 19 |
8 | Teemu Selanne | 1451 | 1232 | 1002 | 1.23 | 0.87 | 35% | 230 | -101 | 332 | 19 |
9 | Mark Howe | 929 | 939 | 628 | 1.50 | 0.96 | 39% | 311 | -20 | 330 | 29 |
10 | Al MacInnis | 1416 | 1397 | 992 | 1.41 | 1.11 | 38% | 404 | 81 | 323 | 19 |
11 | Stan Mikita | 1393 | 1220 | 825 | 1.48 | 1.12 | 33% | 395 | 73 | 323 | 19 |
12 | Mario Lemieux | 915 | 1092 | 883 | 1.24 | 0.84 | 46% | 209 | -110 | 319 | 29 |
13 | Bobby Clarke | 1147 | 894 | 498 | 1.80 | 1.20 | 30% | 397 | 82 | 314 | 22 |
14 | Eric Lindros | 760 | 842 | 565 | 1.49 | 0.95 | 42% | 276 | -22 | 298 | 32 |
15 | Borje Salming | 1148 | 1206 | 1056 | 1.14 | 0.82 | 43% | 150 | -148 | 298 | 21 |
16 | Dave Taylor | 1111 | 876 | 671 | 1.30 | 0.84 | 30% | 205 | -86 | 291 | 21 |
17 | Peter Forsberg | 708 | 741 | 432 | 1.71 | 1.07 | 38% | 309 | 24 | 285 | 33 |
18 | Gordie Howe | 921 | 919 | 724 | 1.27 | 0.85 | 36% | 195 | -89 | 284 | 25 |
19 | Pavel Datsyuk | 953 | 858 | 553 | 1.55 | 1.07 | 34% | 305 | 30 | 275 | 24 |
20 | Bryan Trottier | 1279 | 1081 | 724 | 1.49 | 1.17 | 33% | 357 | 90 | 267 | 17 |
21 | Mike Bossy | 752 | 732 | 408 | 1.80 | 1.17 | 36% | 325 | 59 | 266 | 29 |
22 | Sidney Crosby | 782 | 848 | 602 | 1.41 | 0.96 | 41% | 246 | -18 | 264 | 28 |
23 | Guy Lafleur | 1126 | 1079 | 646 | 1.67 | 1.35 | 34% | 432 | 168 | 264 | 19 |
24 | Marcel Dionne | 1348 | 1126 | 1019 | 1.10 | 0.80 | 35% | 107 | -156 | 263 | 16 |
25 | Henrik Sedin | 1248 | 951 | 707 | 1.35 | 0.98 | 31% | 244 | -12 | 255 | 17 |
26 | John Leclair | 967 | 868 | 586 | 1.48 | 1.08 | 35% | 282 | 36 | 246 | 21 |
27 | Daniel Sedin | 1225 | 891 | 660 | 1.35 | 0.97 | 29% | 231 | -14 | 245 | 16 |
28 | Larry Murphy | 1615 | 1534 | 1275 | 1.20 | 1.02 | 39% | 258 | 14 | 244 | 12 |
29 | Denis Potvin | 1060 | 1122 | 753 | 1.49 | 1.23 | 43% | 369 | 127 | 242 | 19 |
30 | Alex Tanguay | 1088 | 945 | 713 | 1.33 | 1.00 | 35% | 232 | 2 | 230 | 17 |
31 | Scott Stevens | 1635 | 1658 | 1265 | 1.31 | 1.19 | 42% | 393 | 162 | 230 | 12 |
32 | Brad Park | 1115 | 1212 | 866 | 1.40 | 1.20 | 42% | 345 | 125 | 221 | 16 |
33 | Ron Francis | 1731 | 1374 | 1249 | 1.10 | 0.89 | 34% | 125 | -95 | 220 | 10 |
34 | Brad McCrimmon | 1222 | 1041 | 726 | 1.43 | 1.18 | 34% | 314 | 94 | 220 | 15 |
35 | Chris Kunitz | 884 | 705 | 471 | 1.50 | 1.05 | 31% | 233 | 17 | 217 | 20 |
36 | Brian Rafalski | 833 | 823 | 583 | 1.41 | 1.05 | 38% | 240 | 24 | 215 | 21 |
37 | Chris Pronger | 1167 | 1060 | 858 | 1.23 | 0.99 | 39% | 201 | -7 | 208 | 15 |
38 | Frank Mahovlich | 1048 | 1022 | 722 | 1.42 | 1.18 | 35% | 300 | 94 | 206 | 16 |
39 | Steve Shutt | 930 | 790 | 436 | 1.81 | 1.45 | 29% | 354 | 148 | 206 | 18 |
40 | Sergei Fedorov | 1249 | 1018 | 766 | 1.33 | 1.08 | 32% | 252 | 47 | 206 | 14 |
41 | Marian Hossa | 1309 | 1026 | 758 | 1.35 | 1.12 | 30% | 268 | 64 | 205 | 13 |
42 | Ryan Getzlaf | 861 | 740 | 546 | 1.35 | 0.98 | 36% | 194 | -7 | 199 | 19 |
43 | Patrik Elias | 1240 | 912 | 691 | 1.32 | 1.04 | 31% | 220 | 23 | 198 | 13 |
44 | Steve Larmer | 1006 | 750 | 577 | 1.30 | 0.95 | 32% | 173 | -24 | 197 | 16 |
45 | Brian Propp | 1016 | 767 | 524 | 1.46 | 1.12 | 31% | 243 | 49 | 195 | 16 |
46 | Zigmund Palffy | 684 | 615 | 502 | 1.23 | 0.80 | 37% | 114 | -80 | 194 | 23 |
47 | Terry Harper | 1066 | 1108 | 890 | 1.24 | 1.04 | 43% | 218 | 25 | 193 | 15 |
48 | Craig Ramsay | 1070 | 694 | 462 | 1.50 | 1.12 | 25% | 231 | 42 | 189 | 15 |
49 | Keith Tkachuk | 1201 | 992 | 895 | 1.11 | 0.87 | 36% | 98 | -88 | 186 | 13 |
50 | Charlie Simmer | 712 | 524 | 395 | 1.33 | 0.83 | 29% | 130 | -56 | 186 | 21 |
51 | Gary Roberts | 1224 | 960 | 723 | 1.33 | 1.10 | 31% | 237 | 53 | 184 | 12 |
52 | Chris Chelios | 1651 | 1476 | 1152 | 1.28 | 1.18 | 39% | 324 | 143 | 181 | 9 |
53 | Bobby Hull | 923 | 1004 | 729 | 1.38 | 1.18 | 40% | 275 | 94 | 181 | 16 |
54 | Lubomir Visnovsky | 883 | 791 | 702 | 1.13 | 0.83 | 38% | 88 | -92 | 180 | 17 |
55 | Jonathan Toews | 717 | 666 | 456 | 1.46 | 1.09 | 34% | 210 | 31 | 180 | 21 |
56 | Jere Lehtinen | 875 | 616 | 413 | 1.49 | 1.07 | 28% | 203 | 23 | 180 | 17 |
57 | Pierre Turgeon | 1294 | 1042 | 839 | 1.24 | 1.04 | 33% | 203 | 24 | 178 | 11 |
58 | Luc Robitaille | 1431 | 1204 | 1028 | 1.17 | 1.00 | 33% | 175 | -2 | 177 | 10 |
59 | Kenny Wharram | 667 | 611 | 405 | 1.51 | 1.10 | 31% | 206 | 32 | 173 | 21 |
60 | Brendan Shanahan | 1524 | 1181 | 960 | 1.23 | 1.07 | 32% | 221 | 49 | 172 | 9 |
61 | Dmitri Khristich | 811 | 608 | 472 | 1.29 | 0.90 | 30% | 136 | -35 | 171 | 17 |
62 | Alex Ovechkin | 921 | 890 | 702 | 1.27 | 1.03 | 39% | 187 | 16 | 171 | 15 |
63 | Carl Brewer | 533 | 648 | 456 | 1.42 | 1.07 | 44% | 193 | 23 | 170 | 26 |
64 | Joe Sakic | 1378 | 1272 | 1105 | 1.15 | 1.00 | 38% | 167 | -2 | 169 | 10 |
65 | Daniel Alfredsson | 1246 | 1010 | 818 | 1.23 | 1.04 | 33% | 192 | 23 | 169 | 11 |
66 | Milan Hejduk | 1020 | 840 | 662 | 1.27 | 1.02 | 33% | 178 | 9 | 169 | 14 |
67 | Pierre Pilote | 660 | 873 | 652 | 1.34 | 1.11 | 49% | 221 | 52 | 169 | 21 |
68 | Jarome Iginla | 1554 | 1238 | 1143 | 1.08 | 0.91 | 36% | 95 | -73 | 169 | 9 |
69 | Petr Svoboda | 1047 | 812 | 622 | 1.31 | 1.05 | 32% | 190 | 22 | 168 | 13 |
70 | Michael Nylander | 920 | 718 | 585 | 1.23 | 0.93 | 32% | 133 | -30 | 163 | 15 |
71 | Jason Arnott | 1244 | 963 | 792 | 1.22 | 1.01 | 32% | 171 | 8 | 163 | 11 |
72 | Michel Goulet | 1089 | 812 | 688 | 1.18 | 0.92 | 32% | 123 | -39 | 163 | 12 |
73 | Simon Gagne | 822 | 600 | 446 | 1.34 | 0.98 | 29% | 153 | -7 | 161 | 16 |
74 | Henrik Zetterberg | 1000 | 872 | 672 | 1.30 | 1.08 | 35% | 200 | 40 | 160 | 13 |
75 | Marek Malik | 691 | 582 | 441 | 1.32 | 0.95 | 34% | 141 | -18 | 159 | 19 |
76 | Jean Ratelle | 1280 | 1073 | 834 | 1.29 | 1.14 | 32% | 239 | 81 | 158 | 10 |
77 | Zdeno Chara | 1350 | 1271 | 1062 | 1.20 | 1.07 | 39% | 208 | 50 | 157 | 10 |
78 | Marian Gaborik | 989 | 756 | 624 | 1.21 | 0.95 | 34% | 132 | -25 | 157 | 13 |
79 | Joe Reekie | 902 | 716 | 604 | 1.19 | 0.91 | 35% | 112 | -40 | 153 | 14 |
80 | Jacques Lemaire | 852 | 811 | 484 | 1.68 | 1.52 | 33% | 327 | 175 | 152 | 15 |
81 | Theoren Fleury | 1084 | 942 | 795 | 1.19 | 1.00 | 36% | 147 | -3 | 150 | 11 |
82 | Joe Pavelski | 806 | 592 | 445 | 1.33 | 1.00 | 31% | 147 | -1 | 149 | 15 |
83 | Ron Stackhouse | 889 | 893 | 853 | 1.05 | 0.82 | 42% | 40 | -110 | 149 | 14 |
84 | Alexander Semin | 650 | 521 | 402 | 1.30 | 0.91 | 31% | 119 | -30 | 149 | 19 |
85 | Bill Hajt | 854 | 813 | 584 | 1.39 | 1.19 | 37% | 228 | 81 | 148 | 14 |
86 | Patrice Bergeron | 899 | 684 | 516 | 1.32 | 1.05 | 30% | 168 | 20 | 148 | 13 |
87 | Mike Foligno | 1018 | 665 | 557 | 1.19 | 0.90 | 28% | 107 | -40 | 147 | 12 |
88 | Ulf Samuelsson | 1080 | 911 | 775 | 1.17 | 0.98 | 36% | 135 | -11 | 147 | 11 |
89 | Cliff Ronning | 1137 | 709 | 592 | 1.20 | 0.93 | 26% | 117 | -29 | 146 | 11 |
90 | Steve Sullivan | 1011 | 745 | 621 | 1.20 | 0.95 | 30% | 124 | -21 | 145 | 12 |
91 | Mats Sundin | 1346 | 1139 | 1024 | 1.11 | 0.96 | 35% | 115 | -28 | 143 | 9 |
92 | Doug Gilmour | 1474 | 1141 | 997 | 1.14 | 1.00 | 34% | 144 | 1 | 143 | 8 |
93 | Henri Richard | 998 | 933 | 663 | 1.41 | 1.28 | 33% | 270 | 129 | 141 | 12 |
94 | Paul Kariya | 989 | 834 | 743 | 1.12 | 0.91 | 38% | 91 | -51 | 141 | 12 |
95 | Pavol Demitra | 847 | 716 | 554 | 1.29 | 1.05 | 35% | 162 | 22 | 140 | 14 |
96 | Sergei Gonchar | 1301 | 1113 | 1010 | 1.10 | 0.95 | 37% | 104 | -36 | 140 | 9 |
97 | Keith Carney | 1018 | 818 | 688 | 1.19 | 0.98 | 35% | 131 | -8 | 139 | 11 |
98 | Martin St. Louis | 1134 | 985 | 939 | 1.05 | 0.86 | 36% | 46 | -92 | 138 | 10 |
99 | Jeremy Roenick | 1363 | 989 | 822 | 1.20 | 1.05 | 32% | 167 | 30 | 138 | 8 |
100 | Sergei Zubov | 1068 | 1042 | 827 | 1.26 | 1.14 | 42% | 215 | 78 | 137 | 11 |
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Player | GP | $ESGF | $ESGA | R-ON | R-OFF | EV% | EV+/- | XEV+/- | AEV+/- | AEV+/-/82 |
Steve Yzerman | 1514 | 1352 | 1148 | 1.18 | 1.09 | 36% | 205 | 73 | 131 | 7 |
Paul Coffey | 1409 | 1625 | 1325 | 1.23 | 1.20 | 43% | 301 | 175 | 126 | 7 |
Phil Esposito | 1282 | 1302 | 1015 | 1.28 | 1.25 | 37% | 287 | 166 | 121 | 8 |
Duncan Keith | 913 | 978 | 816 | 1.20 | 1.08 | 43% | 162 | 45 | 118 | 11 |
Evgeni Malkin | 706 | 677 | 532 | 1.27 | 1.08 | 38% | 145 | 29 | 116 | 14 |
Alex Delvecchio | 1017 | 932 | 865 | 1.08 | 0.92 | 36% | 67 | -49 | 116 | 9 |
Scott Niedermayer | 1263 | 1169 | 944 | 1.24 | 1.23 | 39% | 225 | 139 | 86 | 6 |
Jean Beliveau | 748 | 653 | 490 | 1.33 | 1.30 | 31% | 163 | 97 | 66 | 7 |
Patrick Kane | 740 | 697 | 576 | 1.21 | 1.16 | 38% | 121 | 61 | 60 | 7 |
Tim Horton | 1010 | 1196 | 1027 | 1.16 | 1.17 | 48% | 169 | 114 | 56 | 5 |
Johnny Bucyk | 1299 | 1096 | 1065 | 1.03 | 0.98 | 32% | 30 | -15 | 45 | 3 |
Brett Hull | 1269 | 1093 | 995 | 1.10 | 1.12 | 38% | 99 | 75 | 23 | 2 |
Dave Keon | 1296 | 918 | 848 | 1.08 | 1.10 | 29% | 70 | 54 | 16 | 1 |
Mark Messier | 1756 | 1418 | 1302 | 1.09 | 1.13 | 33% | 116 | 109 | 7 | 0 |
Gilbert Perreault | 1191 | 980 | 904 | 1.08 | 1.13 | 36% | 76 | 73 | 3 | 0 |
Bob Gainey | 1160 | 645 | 525 | 1.23 | 1.51 | 23% | 120 | 155 | -35 | -2 |
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-Messier suffers from two factors – he played on a team with Gretzky for years on a different line, and he had several terrible years at the end of his career. Remove these final years and adjust for the Gretzky factor, and his numbers are closer to Yzerman.
Even still if you put Messier up to Yzerman's level, he's outside the top 100 players. Crosby comes in 22nd. Large gap.
Top ten in scoring & Selke voting (in the same season)
Player | Season | Scoring | Selke |
Adam Oates | 1993 | 3 | 10 |
Anze Kopitar | 2018 | 7 | 1 |
Bobby Clarke | 1978 | 8 | 2 |
Brent Sutter | 1985 | 10 | 8 |
Bryan Trottier | 1981 | 10 | 8 |
Bryan Trottier | 1984 | 8 | 2 |
Daniel Alfredsson | 2006 | 4 | 4 |
Daniel Alfredsson | 2008 | 9 | 10 |
Doug Gilmour | 1987 | 5 | 6 |
Doug Gilmour | 1993 | 7 | 1 |
Doug Gilmour | 1994 | 4 | 2 |
Henrik Zetterberg | 2008 | 6 | 3 |
Jari Kurri | 1983 | 9 | 2 |
Jari Kurri | 1984 | 7 | 3 |
Jari Kurri | 1985 | 2 | 4 |
Jari Kurri | 1986 | 4 | 5 |
Jari Kurri | 1987 | 2 | 10 |
Jari Kurri | 1989 | 8 | 10 |
Jeremy Roenick | 1992 | 7 | 9 |
Joe Pavelski | 2014 | 8 | 8 |
Joe Sakic | 2000 | 8 | 10 |
Joe Sakic | 2001 | 2 | 2 |
Joe Sakic | 2002 | 5 | 9 |
Joe Thornton | 2016 | 4 | 5 |
Mark Messier | 1992 | 5 | 9 |
Martin St. Louis | 2004 | 1 | 4 |
Michel Goulet | 1984 | 3 | 8 |
Mike Modano | 2002 | 9 | 6 |
Mike Modano | 2003 | 10 | 6 |
Nicklas Backstrom | 2010 | 4 | 10 |
Nicklas Backstrom | 2017 | 4 | 7 |
Patrik Elias | 2001 | 3 | 8 |
Pavel Datsyuk | 2008 | 4 | 1 |
Pavel Datsyuk | 2009 | 4 | 1 |
Pavel Datsyuk | 2013 | 10 | 3 |
Peter Forsberg | 1998 | 2 | 6 |
Peter Forsberg | 1999 | 4 | 8 |
Peter Forsberg | 2003 | 1 | 4 |
Rick Middleton | 1984 | 10 | 4 |
Ron Francis | 1995 | 5 | 1 |
Ron Francis | 1996 | 4 | 2 |
Ron Francis | 1997 | 8 | 8 |
Ron Francis | 1998 | 5 | 4 |
Ryan Getzlaf | 2014 | 2 | 10 |
Sergei Fedorov | 1994 | 2 | 1 |
Sergei Fedorov | 1996 | 9 | 1 |
Sidney Crosby | 2016 | 3 | 7 |
Sidney Crosby | 2017 | 2 | 10 |
Sidney Crosby | 2018 | 10 | 9 |
Steve Yzerman | 2000 | 10 | 1 |
Zack Parise | 2009 | 5 | 8 |
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-Sid's becoming quite the 2 way player in an all time sense. He's probably not quite as good as those Selke finishes indicate (most scoring line F's who get higher end votes aren't) but the fact remains Sid has long been a 200 foot player. He combines elite offense with solid to good defensive acumen. Messier was a strong PK'er but I don't think there really is much gap if any defensively speaking at ES. Sid is simply a much better offensive talent.
Playoff comparison:
No question Messier still holds an advantage here. But that gap has shrank considerably since 87's back to back titles.
Considering the bulk of MM's career came in the highest scoring era of all time and he played on possibly the greatest offensive team in league history:
Messier is 4th all time in playoff points per game. Crosby is 8th. And Sid never had anything close to what Messier did around him as far as offensive stars.
Messier's raw numbers are much more impressive but that is in large part because he has 236 career games to Crosby's 160. Let's wait and see where Sid ends up when it's all said and done.
Sid has the back to back Smythes. Messier could have easily had more than the one, but Sid's 2009 was very impressive, just slightly less so than Malkin and he was also strong in 2008 when he led the entire postseason in assists and points.
Crosby has 63 Career Multi Point games in playoffs (3rd all time) in 160 games. Mark Messier, 2nd all time, had 77 but in 236 games. If Sid plays near 236, he's going to pass Messier here.
39.3% for Sid
32. 6% for Messier
And again, who was playing in the much more favorable scoring environment?
Messier is better, I just don't think the gap is as wide as people think.
Crosby vs Messier on the international stage:
Crosby simply looks more impressive IMO.
2 Olympic Gold medals in 2 tries (2010/2014)
-Scored Golden goal in OT of gold medal game 2010. Cultural impact of winning gold on your home soil after a terrible showing in 2006 was massive.
-Scored big goal in gold medal game in 2014
1 World Championship Gold (2015)
1 World Cup of Hockey Gold (2016)
-MVP and leading scorer
1 World Junior Gold (2005)
-Also named Best Forward at World Championship in 2006. Something Messier never did in any of his tournaments.
-Youngest Player in history to win a World Championship scoring title (2006). Something Messier never did in any tournament. Crosby led the WC's in scoring in 2006 and the World Cup of hockey in 2016.
-Member of Quadruple Gold Club (Gold medeal at World Junior, WC', Olympics, and WCOH)
-Only player in hockey history to captain every team of the quad/triple gold clubs.
-
Orr, Gretzky and Crosby are the three players in history to win the Hart Trophy, the Conn Smythe Trophy, and MVP at the Canada Cup or World Cup of Hockey.
-He is the 6th player in NHL history to win the Stanley Cup three times with two Olympic gold medals. Crosby joins Igor Larionov, Martin Brodeur, Scott Niedermayer, Duncan Keith, and Jonathan Toews as the players who make up that prestigious fraternity
-Crosby has 47 points in 37 senior team games for Canada = 1.27 PPG
-Messier has 32 points in 38 games for Canada = 0.84 PPG
Messier won gold 3 times at Canada Cups in 84, 87, and 91 but never was a top scorer, never made a post tournament AS team. Same thing when Canada was silver in 89 at the WC's or 96 at the WCOH.
Summery:
-Sid clearly has an advantage as a regular season player IMO. You can throw out Gretzky and Lemieux in defense of Messier but even removing them it doesn't alter MM's scoring placements much or award finishes. And Sid could argue he lost 2 of his most prime seasons due to injuries that were literally no fault of his own robbing him of another 2 Harts and Art Ross's and 1 Lindsay.
I still have Messier as the more impressive postseason player. He posted some big numbers, won 6 Cups and had great longevity as a big game player. Perhaps Sid catches/passes him but as of now Messier deserves the nod here.
Sid is the more impressive international player. Better overall results, especially as the captain, massive, massive goal for Canada in 2010. Simply better.
There will only be a few spots separating them for me but Sid has edged past Messier IMHO based on a lot of what I posted above.