Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

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Canadiens1958

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Agreed. I don't hold beating Las Vegas against the Caps or Ovechkin...and I despise them as a Pittsburgh fan haha. They earned that Cup, Ovechkin stepped up and Kuznetsov more or less pulled an 09 Malkin, stealing some thunder from the team's captain down the stretch, namely in the finals.

I've just never been one to give Hasek some mythical position because he took Buffalo from a 1st round exit team to a franchise that could contend for deeper runs and even got the finals once.

As i correctly pointed out, Buffalo was already a playoff team before Hasek got there. And they still didn't get out of the 1st round until 97-98.

The notion Hasek somehow propelled Buffalo to insane heights from the depths of hell is utter fantasy.

With that being said, I still have him as a top 15 player all time. I just never understood how somebody could put him above Roy. At all.

True playoffs underwhelm.

And that is the point. Limit the discussion to Hasek v Roy and worst case scenario for Hasek is #2.

Expand the discussion to top 10 goalies all time and both drop significantly. Hasek especially.
 
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ted2019

History of Hockey
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Haven't been on much lately, but here's my 2 cents.
PEAK:
Hasek
Morenz
Crosby
Ovechkin

Longevity:
Bourque
Lidstrom
Plante
Jagr

Overall:
Hasek
Morenz
Crosby
Lidstrom/Bourque

I have Shore dropping even more and it's too early for Messier, Mikita, Potvin, Plante. For me, this round is about Jagr/Ovechkin and if either can break the Lidstrom/Bourque duo and into the top 4 to 5.
 
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quoipourquoi

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Jan 26, 2009
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Not gonna lie, my body IS ready to vote Messier #1 if someone massages my brain in that direction throughout the week.

Best playoff performer this round with Plante, managed to grab two Hart with 66/99 still in their prime, all-around play, leadership, longevity.I'm not totally convinced Crosby is better.

I’ll try to put something together - not just Messier vs. Bourque and my speculation that Messier was better than Bourque’s Norris competition 5-7 times but more towards his overall longevity and regular season consistency (that gets underreported by VsX).

I don’t have him as the top player this round, but I think mid-range on this ballot would be appropriate. I expect he’ll be polarizing though.
 
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BenchBrawl

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I’ll try to put something together - not just Messier vs. Bourque and my speculation that Messier was better than Bourque’s Norris competition 5-7 times but more towards his overall longevity and regular season consistency (that gets underreported by VsX).

I don’t have him as the top player this round, but I think mid-range on this ballot would be appropriate. I expect he’ll be polarizing though.

Looking forward to read that.

It's highly unlikely anyone displaces Morenz as my #1, but I'm not as sure about Crosby vs. Messier as I used to be like a week ago.I certainly have Messier > Bourque as my starting point.And Messier > Mikita for that matter.

I understand Messier peaked at the same time as Gretzky and Lemieux, and voting in three centers that peaked in the same era is a bold move, but I believe tough competition can make you grander and have a positive domino effect on the competition, which could be why you see clusters of great players in some windows and absence of such cluster in others.In french it's call "effet d'entraînement'', I don't know the english equivalent.
 

Michael Farkas

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That's my impression too after digging deeper into him...thus, he falls from his "traditional" spot...and I think it's very justified. It's easy to get lured in by the trophy count, but there's more to the game than that...ya know, like, the game...

Disliking a player doesn't usually mean there's a personal vendetta or some sort of jingoism involved...it's crazy to think, I know...but sometimes people just honestly feel a player has a different value than you (royal you)...
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
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This is a dangerous question probably...but maybe someone will humor me with an opinion...

Just how much worse, to a man, were the 1999 Sabres vs. the 1993 Canadiens...?

I personally think that the 93 HABS were MUCH better then the 99 Sabres. Michal Grosek was the Sabres 3rd leading scorer in the regular season. He was out of the league in 5 years. Montreal's 3rd leading scorer was Brian Bellows. That Sabre team couldn't score as they only had 207 goals, compared to the 326 that Montreal scored. Montreal was 9th in the league in scoring while Buffalo was 17th in the league in scoring. Buffalo HAD to rely on Hasek to win those games.
 

Canadiens1958

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I also have Shore dropping and think that Shore was more style then substance and his "legend" is more valuable then his talent.

1931 first place semi-final. First place Bruins vs first place Canadiens, Morenz vs Shore, classic. Decided in game 5 overtime. Canadiens go to SC finals Plenty of substance on both sides:

1931:
The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités
 

quoipourquoi

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This is a dangerous question probably...but maybe someone will humor me with an opinion...

Just how much worse, to a man, were the 1999 Sabres vs. the 1993 Canadiens...?

Based on GF output by round and shots allowed, their dependence on goaltending for playoff success is probably overstated.

Teams Most Reliant on Goaltending to Advance to the Stanley Cup Finals
Performance in Rounds 1-3
(Threshold vs. Expectation, 1979-2017)


RankYearTeam1-3 TvER1 TvER2 TvER3 TvE
#12003Anaheim65.0453.0767.7577.09
#21993Montreal77.5264.3289.8484.67
#31996Florida78.65117.7758.4265.24
#41982Vancouver78.7465.2688.5577.29
#51998Washington82.1759.11118.4878.72
#62006Edmonton82.2570.25101.7379.22
#72004Calgary82.3088.4657.30105.02
#82002Carolina82.8754.49147.3859.45
#91986Montreal85.04101.4568.0094.72
#101985Philadelphia85.20110.6474.4478.59
#111994Vancouver85.2890.5783.5480.20
#122013Boston88.4578.23112.4578.32
#131984New York89.2569.97102.1396.66
#142003New Jersey91.7384.54111.7682.64
#152007Anaheim91.8382.53100.1092.15
#162017Nashville93.2099.5286.4294.82
#172015Chicago94.2495.1393.2993.92
#182000Dallas94.32126.63112.6864.45
#191999Buffalo95.0077.58109.8298.85
#202017Pittsburgh95.25106.0179.31103.18
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

BenchBrawl

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Boston Manager Art Ross on Eddie Shore in 1939

Art Ross, rated a better than average player himself in the early days of the professional game, put in a word tonight for Eddie Shore as "the greatest player of all-time".

The Boston manager disputed claims of other National Hockey League managers that Syl Apps or Cyclone Taylor (or Howie Morenz or Frank Nighbor) was the greatest as he came to bat for the mighty defence player.

"I have seen most of the players others label as the greatest of all-time", he said, "but none of them could top Shore in any department of the game."

"During the past 13 seasons I have seen Eddie do everything possible in hockey much better than any of the other "greatests" could do.He was the fastest, the most aggressive, and on top of all his many other hockey gifts, he had a natural instinct to do the right thing at exactly the most opportune time."

Old timers, who saw Ross play at the beginning of the century, often have described him as the greatest defenceman of all time.Ross' stock answer always has been: "We had great hockey players in my day, much better than are around today, but when I compare myself with Shore, I am convinced I couldn't carry his stick, and I never saw anyone who could."
 
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MXD

Partying Hard
Oct 27, 2005
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Haven't been on much lately, but here's my 2 cents.
PEAK:
Hasek
Morenz
Crosby
Ovechkin

Longevity:
Bourque
Lidstrom
Plante
Jagr

Overall:
Hasek
Morenz
Crosby
Lidstrom/Bourque

I have Shore dropping even more and it's too early for Messier, Mikita, Potvin, Plante. For me, this round is about Jagr/Ovechkin and if either can break the Lidstrom/Bourque duo and into the top 4 to 5.

I know it's personnal and all, but I can't get behind the idea that Jagr > Plante as far as longevity is concerned (and I say that as someone who has Plante ahead of Jagr, lock and shut)

This is a dangerous question probably...but maybe someone will humor me with an opinion...

Just how much worse, to a man, were the 1999 Sabres vs. the 1993 Canadiens...?

To be honest.... Quite a bit. Support pieces all seem to have hit their peak at the same time. I mean, you could look at their team and come up with something like :

- .... Damn, their leading ES scorer was Stephan Lebeau.

... And then realize that Lebeau outscored Sakic, Sundin, Hawerchuk, Jagr, Tocchet-benefitting-from-Lemieux, Lindros, Messier, Roenick, Ciccarelli, Brett Hull, Shanahan, Nieuwendyk and Kurri at Even Strenght. ... And that's despite missing 13 games.

EDIT : Okay, I can't count. Lebeau was tied with Damphousse. But point remains.
 
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BenchBrawl

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Shore on Morenz

21 Nov 1942

Eddie Shore picks the late Howie Morenz of the Montreal Canadiens as the greatest hockey player of the modern era and who should know better than Mr. Hockey himself.

In conversation with Bill (Niagara Falls Review) Gaynon, Shore, now owner-manager of Buffalo Bisons in the American Hockey League, said Morenz "had everything, blazing speed, a bullet shot, abundance of ruggedness and above everything else a heart that was unsurpassed in athletic history and no one ever came close to him in the color department."

"After you watched Howie once, you wanted to see him often and as much as I liked to play hockey, I often thought I would have counted it a full evening had I follow the Morenz manoeuvres.Such an inclination never occured to me about other stars."
 

Kyle McMahon

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Sample size my friend. Sample size.

Crosby has already played 160 games in the postseason. I know, i know, different era's but the fact is it's easier to find games or series of modern players that detract than it is from players who literally had entire playoff runs that I can count on one hand.

It's not an easy cross era comparison but Morenz has a lot more no shows than Crosby.

Fact is Crosby is one of 3 players to win back to back Smythes. Argue all you want against his 2016 one. It certainly is one of the weaker ones in history but do we just throw what he did out? Went power on power against Joe Thornton and Pavelski's line in the finals. You know how many goals the Sharks top line scored? 1. An empty netter. People want to throw out complete hypotheticals like Morenz had poor production in 30 and 31 because he had to play defense for the top line covering for Gagnon. I find that possible, but highly unlikely regardless, without concrete evidence to the contrary. Are we going to give Sid some credit for shutting down 2 very good player?

In that first run Crosby scored a game winning OT goal against Tampa in the Conference Finals with the team down 0-1 in the series. What if Pitt fell in that game and went down 0-2? Pretty massive goal i would say.



Cup final, game 2, Crosby draws up the final play, wins a clean faceoff and Conor Sheary pots the OT game winner. Another massive play that Sid created and executed perfectly. Listen to Sheary in the post game interview talk about Sid drawing it up on the fly.



How about 2017?

The next one? A very fine Smythe, leading the postseason in assists, better point per game average than Malkin who finished with 1 more point than Sid in 2 more games.

Conference Finals, Game 7, double OT, Crosby with the primary assist on the Kunitz's game winner. These aren't early round huge moments.



Crosby was the best player in the Cup finals against Nashville. I was personally at Game 5 in Pittsburgh when Crosby played one of the greatest games of his entire career. A night I will never forget. Blowout win that Sid started from the 1st shift when he won the opening faceoff, and seconds later rang one off the post, drawing a penalty, which the Pens scored on to start the onslaught.


How about playoff VsX?

Sid pretty far ahead of Morenz. And that's not including Crosby's ridiculous 21 points in 12 games last playoffs.





Sure Sid had a poor stretch from 2012 to 2015 (2011 was lost due to injury and 2012 he was coming back from a nasty broken jaw) but as somebody like @Mike Farkas can attest, those Pens teams were absolute disasters because Dan Bylsma had no clue what the **** he was doing. Even still in those years Sid had 36 points in 38 games. Marc Andre Fleury was one of the worst playoff goalies off all time during that stretch, the D was putrid overall.

But the fact remains Sid way more often than not, produced. He was generally a solid defensive player, solid in the dot, scored at an elite rate and between 2008 and 2017 went to 4 Stanley Cup finals, leading or co-leading the team to 3 wins.

I can only point to one Cup win where Morenz can lay claim to being the best player, or most important for Montreal. Plenty of other poor showings. Certainly more so than Crosby by any metric I've ever seen.


If larger sample sizes are going to be used to boost the cases of modern players, they are also going to get closely scrutinized and nitpicked as well. It's a package deal.

Validating Crosby's 2016 Smythe is a red herring; it has not been criticized by me. The data I presented in the previous vote shows how the two recent Cup wins of his were achieved against strong opposition and the raw numbers understate the quality of play. Pointing out that Crosby shut down Joe Thornton implies that Morenz lacks similar examples. But Morenz held Frank Nighbor to just a single assist in the 1924 playoffs, while scoring three goals himself to win the NHL championship.

The highlight videos are a nice touch, but unfortunately such things are not available for most of the non-modern candidates.

The VsX stuff can be interpreted in many different ways. One of them is that Frank Boucher (almost identical score to Crosby) is the highest rated player from Morenz's era, while Howie comes in at 2nd. If you're going to declare Morenz's playoffs as a sore point, you're pretty much saying that Boucher was the only guy in the whole league who got it done in the playoffs in the late 20's/early 30's. Doesn't that strike you as a little odd?

We also see that Morenz is ahead of a currently active player who can easily be compared to Crosby, in Patrick Kane. What do we make of this? Is Kane also a poor playoff performer? Or can we extrapolate that Crosby and Boucher are fairly equal playoff performers, and knowing that Kane is also an excellent playoff player (feel free to disagree with that I guess, but we saw what we saw over the last 10 years), surmise that Morenz was to Boucher as Kane was to Crosby? That is, perhaps a notch below but still in the same ballpark?
 

Canadiens1958

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Let's compare Dominik Hasek to other eligible players.

Dominik Hasek vs Mark Messier

1990 Messier wins the Hart and the Stanley Cup despite playing on a team minus Gretzky, Coffey, Fuhr.Bill Ranford goalie. Edmonton beats first place Chicago and Boston en route to the SC.

1996-97 Hasek wins Hart, first place Sabres despite losing Pat Lafontaine early in the season. Eliminated in five games in the Quarter-final. Steve Shields was the goalie in all five quarter - final games.

Dominik Hasek vs Ray Bourque

1988 and 1990 Bruins with Bourque, SC Finalists vs Gretzky/Messier, then Messier Oilers, 2nd and 1st place during RS with Lemelin and Moog.1990 controversial 2nd in Hart voting.

Hasek ibid 1996-97.1997-98 with Hasek, Sabres advance to semi-finals where Kolzig and Caps prevail.

Dominik Hasek vs Jacques Plante. Prime vs Prime and post prime.

1953 to 1963 Canadiens, Jacques Plante an asthmatic, started and played 90 playoff games, every minute in 71 consecutive playoff games. 47 wins 24 losses, overall 59 wins and 28 losses 0.920 SV%.

Dominik Hasek, never played 71 playoff games let alone consecutive with the Sabres. 37 wins, 3o losses, 0.926 SV%

Post prime. Playoffs

Jacques Plante(age 40-41)
Expansion St.Louis 1969 and 1970.
12 wins and 3 loses. 0.945 SV%

Dominik Hasek
Power house Detroit.
28 wins and 17 loses. 0.919SV%

Review detailed breakdown of Hasek's Detroit playoffs by Dr. No.

Roy or Hasek?

Even in his best playoff run -2002, 56 % of the time Hasek was at best average with significant below average efforts.
 
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Hockey Outsider

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Playoff data - R-on vs R-off

This metric compares the R-on and R-off ratios for each player (1960 onwards) in their five longest playoff runs. "R-on" is the ratio of even-strength goals for, to even-strength goals against, while the player is on the ice. "R-off" is the same ratio, while they're off the ice. As always, I can send the raw data to anyone who wants it.

Stan Mikita

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1970-7118 1.88 1.17 60%
1972-7315 0.81 1.18 -31%
1964-6514 1.43 1.27 12%
1961-6212 2.80 0.63 348%
1960-6112 2.25 1.27 78%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Mikita's results are all over the place, but they're favourable overall. The Blackhawks did 93% better at ES with Mikita on the ice (over his five longest postseasons). His performance in 1962 (when he set the single-season record for playoff scoring) is absurdly good. On the other hand, it's a strike against Mikita that when he was at his absolute peak (1964 to 1968 - four Art Ross trophies in five years), he performed well below expectations (averaged -12% over those years - in other words, his teams did better with him off the ice).

Denis Potvin

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1979-8021 1.63 1.03 58%
1982-8320 2.67 1.50 78%
1983-8420 0.80 1.50 -47%
1981-8219 1.50 1.94 -23%
1980-8118 3.57 1.86 92%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Potvin's results are mixed, but positive overall (+32%). He looks bad in 1984 (during the Islanders' failed drive for five) but has three very strong performances during their dynasty. (I don't know why his numbers look so bad in 1982). He wasn't necessarily robbed of a Conn Smythe in any one year, but he was easily in the running two or three times. Not reflected here are some of the pre-dynasty years, where Potvin posted some ridiculous results. He averaged an 150% improvement in the four years leading up to the Islanders' first Stanley Cup - a staggering achievement.

Ray Bourque

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1987-8823 1.80 1.04 74%
2000-0121 1.82 1.53 19%
1990-9119 0.83 0.76 9%
1989-9017 1.92 0.63 203%
1982-8317 1.88 0.69 173%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
I already shared these numbers in the previous thread. Bourque's are very impressive (his team nearly doubled their performance - a 96% improvement - on average over his five longest playoff runs). What stands out about Bourque is his consistency - he never faltered on any of his team's longest playoff runs. The consistency is also evident from his R-ON ratio - aside from 1991, he was consistently around the 1.8-1.9 range, regardless of how good his teams were. But he struggled badly in 1994 and especially 1992 though.

Mark Messier

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1993-9423 2.00 1.15 74%
1989-9022 1.23 1.88 -35%
1986-8721 1.87 1.50 24%
1983-8419 1.75 2.33 -25%
1987-8819 1.69 1.43 18%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Messier's results aren't great (+11% on average), but we need to take a deeper look. He consistently had a strong R-ON ratio while he was on the ice, but he doesn't look great according to this metric because his teams generally had strong R-OFF ratios. Not surprising as, in many of these years, Gretzky and Kurri were dominating at even-strength. Looking after Gretzky's departure, Messier looks great in 1994 (which is what we'd expect), but he looks a lot worse than I though in 1990.

Jaromir Jagr

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
1990-9124 1.18 1.75 -32%
2012-1322 0.92 1.59 -42%
1991-9221 1.24 1.12 10%
1995-9618 1.54 0.84 83%
2000-0116 1.57 0.76 106%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
I think we all know the problem with Jagr's playoff resume. He accumulated a lot of points over a long period of time, but never had a career-defining run where he dragged his team to the finals. I wouldn't put too much stock into 1991 (his rookie season, where he played limited minutes on a very strong team) or 2013 (age 40) - I'd almost give him a pass for those two years. But he looks solid in 1992, and fantastic in 1996 and 2001. If we look at his absolute peak (1995 to 2001), he's solidly into the positives in six out of the seven years (and he doubles his team's ratio in three out of those seven years). His lack of a signature run is absolutely a knock against him, but prime Jagr was still a very good, consistent postseason performer.

Nicklas Lidstrom

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
2001-0223 1.38 1.82 -25%
2007-0822 1.80 2.00 -10%
1997-9822 1.75 1.42 23%
2008-0921 2.00 1.72 16%
1996-9720 2.33 1.43 63%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Lidstrom suffers from the same problem as Messier, and his results are very similar (+14%). His actual level of performance while on the ice is quite high, but it doesn't look great because he played on such strong teams. Still, I think it's troubling that in his eight longest playoff runs (the eight where he makes it past the second round), he's above +23% only once, and his ratio is only very slightly higher than the team's average. For all the talk about Lidstrom being a better playoff performer than Bourque as an individual, I'll point out that the Red Wing barely outperforms Bourque while playing on much stronger teams.

Sidney Crosby

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
2008-0924 1.64 1.00 64%
2016-1724 1.22 1.44 -15%
2015-1624 0.90 1.48 -39%
2007-0820 1.78 1.04 70%
2012-1314 0.77 1.13 -32%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Crosby's results are inconsistent. His results are stellar through 2010, and surprisingly bad after. I know that part of it is due to Malkin being a big part of the "R-Off" calculation, so he faces a similar problem as Messier and Lidstrom. But his performance in 2016 was disappointing (especially for a Smythe winner) - for all the talk of Crosby being a great two-way player, the Penguins were actually outscored at ES while he was on the ice, despite being a very strong club while #87 was on the bench. Crosby actually has a negative cumulative R-ON from 2010 to 2017, on a team that's been solidly positive over those years.

Alex Ovechkin

SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
2017-1824% ?? ?? ??
2008-0914 2.43 0.72 236%
2011-1214 0.80 1.00 -20%
2014-1514 0.73 1.21 -40%
2016-1713 0.64 1.00 -36%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
We all know what happened with Ovechkin. For years he was labelled a choker and a loser. Then he had a career-defining playoff run - the type he was always capable of having - and suddenly half of the main board is calling him a top ten player all-time. As you can seem I don't have the data for 2018. I know it was a very good run, but I can't tell you if it was historical or merely very good. Aside from that, Ovechkin had one extremely strong performance in 2009 (this was during his "Bobby Hull phase", and then three disappointments (thus was during his "Brett Hull phase"). It's a tale of two careers here. Ovechkin was stellar through 2010, then generally bad afterwards.
 
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Kyle McMahon

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Of note, Morenz's relentless forechecking and backchecking are both mentioned repeatedly. As well as the number of penalties he was able to draw with his rushes toward the net.

Shore is described as early as 1931 as one of the greatest defensemen in the history of the sport.

A good reminder not to lose sight of how vicious the sport was in these days. Lots of players grinding it out through significant injuries. Morenz is mentioned in one of the articles as returning to a game not long after being taken off on a stretcher.
 

blogofmike

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Dec 16, 2010
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Is it too late for Hot Take day?

Hot Take: From 2011-2013, Sidney Crosby added fewer wins to his team than Mark Messier did from 1998-2000, going by how the Canucks played (collapsed?) in the absence of their unpopular captain. Yeah, I said Canucks.

Also, less controversially, given that Messier has a longevity edge, the fact that Messier is a better playoff scorer than Crosby is also a point in his favour. Higher scoring era? Sure. But also, several years of reduced PP time and a lot of time in his 30s. Even if you only account for era, Messier's playoffs are better once you account for the huge PK minutes which led to the NHL record for playoff SH goals.

Crosby has a good shot at overtaking him, but I don't think he's close at the current moment.
 

Canadiens1958

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This is a dangerous question probably...but maybe someone will humor me with an opinion...

Just how much worse, to a man, were the 1999 Sabres vs. the 1993 Canadiens...?

Difficult to answer. Coke/Pepsi preference.

Defensively 99 Sabres were 2nd, 93 Canadiens were 7th.

Offensively 1999 Sabres 17th, 1993 Canadiens 9th.

Playoff success. 1993 Canadiens did not play solid to excellent defensive teams. 1999 Buffalo lost the final to the 1st place stars.

Defence prevails.
 
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Captain Bowie

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Still no Makarov? Shame.

I'm starting to feel all people who hurt Canada internationally are getting a shaft here. Hasek, Jagr, Makarov, Ovechkin are all bound to be lower then I would have them.

Yes, once. In 2006 OGQF he scored a winning goal against Canada.


I'm sure Brett Hull and Chelios will both be underrated when their time comes.
He must have done something to your grandfather. I can't believe we still need to defend a 4 Harts / 8 Norrises defenseman.
You should try debating with actual facts and evidence-based logic rather than lame accusations of bias. Might work out better for everyone.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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I think you may be underselling Mark Messier’s reputation in the 1980s. I mean, even Bourque himself told Messier at the 1987 Canada Cup that if Bourque was a General Manager, Messier would be the player he’d pick to start a franchise.

What exactly is the benefit of being “second banana” when it is pretty well established that it choked off his powerplay production and shifted him from a Left Wing position where he was coming off having collected three-consecutive All-Star selections to one where he was unlikely to continue receiving accolades?

you may be right; i was pretty young in the 80s. but when i was coming into consciousness at the end of the decade i thought the temperature of the room was bourque > messier.

pre-1990, almost nobody on the oilers got any hart votes because of gretzky's enormous shadow. but does it mean anything that coffey is getting random hart votes in multiple seasons while messier and kurri have just one year each? (for completeness, coffey and fuhr each have one year of serious hart consideration in that decade, kurri and messier have zero.)

meanwhile, from '84 to '88, bourque goes 5th, 5th, stray vote, 2nd, stray vote. and insofar as they mean anything, bourque also gets stray votes two other years earlier in the decade.

as for the second banana thing, the (perceived) benefit is four stanley cups, obviously. i'll put it this way: would i have been surprised if post-gretzky messier performed at a scottie pippen circa 1994 level? not in the least. but was i surprised by 1990, 1992, 1994, and 1996? you bet i was.
 
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VanIslander

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I think it's troubling that in his eight longest playoff runs (the eight where he makes it past the second round), he's never higher than +23%, and his ratio is only very slightly higher than the team's average. For all the talk about Lidstrom being a better playoff performer than Bourque as an individual, I'll point out that the Red Wing barely outperforms Bourque while playing on much stronger teams.
Contrary to popular opinion around here, indeed.
 

Captain Bowie

Registered User
Jan 18, 2012
27,139
4,414
Let's compare Dominik Hasek to other eligible players.

Dominik Hasek vs Mark Messier

1990 Messier wins the Hart and the Stanley Cup despite playing on a team minus Gretzky, Coffey, Fuhr.Bill Ranford goalie. Edmonton beats first place Chicago and Boston en route to the SC.

1996-97 Hasek wins Hart, first place Sabres despite losing Pat Lafontaine early in the season. Eliminated in five games in the Quarter-final. Steve Shields was the goalie in all five quarter - final games.

Dominik Hasek vs Ray Bourque

1988 and 1990 Bruins with Bourque, SC Finalists vs Gretzky/Messier, then Messier Oilers, 2nd and 1st place during RS with Lemelin and Moog.1990 controversial 2nd in Hart voting.

Hasek ibid 1996-97.1997-98 with Hasek, Sabres advance to semi-finals where Kolzig and Caps prevail.

Dominik Hasek vs Jacques Plante. Prime vs Prime and post prime.

1953 to 1963 Canadiens, Jacques Plante an asthmatic, started and played 90 playoff games, every minute in 71 consecutive playoff games. 47 wins 24 losses, overall 59 wins and 28 losses 0.920 SV%.

Dominik Hasek, never played 71 playoff games let alone consecutive with the Sabres. 37 wins, 3o losses, 0.926 SV%

Post prime. Playoffs

Jacques Plante(age 40-41)
Expansion St.Louis 1969 and 1970.
12 wins and 3 loses. 0.945 SV%

Dominik Hasek
Power house Detroit.
28 wins and 17 loses. 0.919SV%

Review detailed breakdown of Hasek's Detroit playoffs by Dr. No.

Roy or Hasek?

Even in his best playoff run -2002, 56 % of the time Hasek was at best average with significant below average efforts.
What kind of lazy, cherrypicking comparisons are these?

You compare on Messier season to one Hasek season, and that's supposed to mean something?
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
1,884
pittsgrove nj
Based on GF output by round and shots allowed, their dependence on goaltending for playoff success is probably overstated.

Teams Most Reliant on Goaltending to Advance to the Stanley Cup Finals
Performance in Rounds 1-3
(Threshold vs. Expectation, 1979-2017)


RankYearTeam1-3 TvER1 TvER2 TvER3 TvE
#12003Anaheim65.0453.0767.7577.09
#21993Montreal77.5264.3289.8484.67
#31996Florida78.65117.7758.4265.24
#41982Vancouver78.7465.2688.5577.29
#51998Washington82.1759.11118.4878.72
#62006Edmonton82.2570.25101.7379.22
#72004Calgary82.3088.4657.30105.02
#82002Carolina82.8754.49147.3859.45
#91986Montreal85.04101.4568.0094.72
#101985Philadelphia85.20110.6474.4478.59
#111994Vancouver85.2890.5783.5480.20
#122013Boston88.4578.23112.4578.32
#131984New York89.2569.97102.1396.66
#142003New Jersey91.7384.54111.7682.64
#152007Anaheim91.8382.53100.1092.15
#162017Nashville93.2099.5286.4294.82
#172015Chicago94.2495.1393.2993.92
#182000Dallas94.32126.63112.6864.45
#191999Buffalo95.0077.58109.8298.85
#202017Pittsburgh95.25106.0179.31103.18
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So, are the higher numbers better or worse in this?
 
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