Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Revenge of Michael Myers)

[Kyle McMahon]

You seem to be discounting how much top players ACTUALLY WANT TO BE #1. In a close race between Ovechkin and McDavid, both will try extra hard to score that last goal to be the best. They are both very proud athletes. Do you think Gretzky would've retired one game before beating Howe's record? Not a chance.

And it's strange to hear about "factors beyond an individual player's control." When Bossy scored 50 goals in the 80s and Ovechkin 50 goals in the 00s, they both "scored 50 goals." But because of League-wide scoring averages, their "50 goals" are viewed differently.

I'm sure they want to be #1. But I would really hope they want to win games, first and foremost. Whether or not one scored a goal in the 82nd regular season game might be personally important to them, but regardless, that one goal has no value beyond helping their team win the 82nd game. If they enter game 82 tied at 49 goals and Ovechkin goes scoreless but the Capitals win and clinch a playoff spot, while McDavid gets a goal but the Oilers lose 4-3 a miss the playoffs by one point, the Rocket Richard trophy is of little consolation. And surely Ovechkin's runner-up season will be held in higher esteem than, oh let's say, his 1st place season where he went -35 on a 90-point team and missed the playoffs.

League-wide scoring averages are not influenced by one player's goal total to any meaningful degree. If Ovechkin gets 50 and a dozen other players get 50+, then it will probably be viewed differently. One other player getting either 49 or 51 doesn't reveal any clues about the scoring environment.

 

[Michael Farkas]

And the other votes:

0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0 and 0.

Forgot him, forgot him, didn't know about him, wasn't comfortable putting him, biased against [this team/country/era], set an artificial bar for the amount of players from this [era/country/position], thought it was "ie" and not "ei"...

Meanwhile 10% of the group had him in the top half of their list...and over a quarter of participants believe he belongs firmly on the list, comfortably, in fact...I'd like a chance to discuss that player...because, frankly, I don't know that I'm not one of the people that just flat out missed him and didn't want to...or, I'm one of the statistically unlikely number of people who had him at 86 (Gadsby?)...

 

[ResilientBeast]

Bobby Hull scored 27.7% of his points on the PP. Much lower than I expected to be honest.

If your data is from HR PP assists aren't listed for most his career

 

[ImporterExporter]

If your data is from HR PP assists aren't listed for most his career

Nope, I'm using NHL.com

Their stats seem to be intact all the way back to the 1933 season.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Mike Farkas has convinced me. I didn’t have this player in my top-120, but I kinda want to make sure I don’t have an historical blindspot. Based on the voting distribution, I think more education on this particular player is warranted.

One top-50 vote has my curiosity. Two of them when no one else in the block has anything similar has my attention.

Cut-off will be after #114.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Woo! Suck it, chummmmmmmmmps...


Back on a winning streak after seventies and CG speedbagged me last night...

 

[BenchBrawl]

Who is that damn player?

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm thinking goalie...because of the variance...some mutants have like 25ish goalies on their list...meanwhile, upstanding citizens like me have much, much less...

Or, it's the best #86 in history...Nikita Kucherov...

 

[MXD]

*Looks at who I have at #86*
...
Oh.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I had Gadsby, who you got? A goalie?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Having 25 goalies is not that radical numerically speaking.But neither is having 15 of them.

I see no problem with a 1/5 or 1/8 goalie lists.Not sure what the acceptable range of ratios would be.

 

[MXD]

I had Gadsby, who you got? A goalie?

#113, obviously

 

[DannyGallivan]

I'm one of the statistically unlikely number of people who had him at 86 (Gadsby?)...

Damn... in retrospect I would have liked to have found room for Gadsby . Certainly not at 86, but somewhere.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yet facing fewer shots in the shoot-out is harder than facing more shots in regulation and an intermediate amount in RS OT.

So the SV% stats require re-working.

Shoot out goalie is recognized as being successful when the shooter misses or fails in any fashion.

Applied to regulation or RS OT would be more revealing.

Missing a shot in the shootout is caused by the goaltender's postioning (or bad ice).

Missed shots in regulation are often caused by defensive player's postioning.

 

[MXD]

Missing a shot in the shootout is caused by the goaltender's postioning (or bad ice).

Missed shots in regulation are often caused by defensive player's postioning.

Or because the goalie looks like Yokozuna so the shooter has to pick corners.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Power Play Points by Percentage:

All numbers taken from NHL.com

Name	PPP	TP	PP%
Gretzky	890	2857	31.1
Orr	324	915	35.4
Howe	564	1850	30.5
Lemieux	701	1723	40.7
Bo. Hull	324	1170	27.7
D. Harvey	232	540	43.0
Beliveau	442	1219	36.3
M. Richard	254	966	26.3
Bourque	761	1579	48.2
Lidstrom	590	1142	51.7
Crosby	415	1123	37.0
Messier	581	1887	30.8
Kelly*	232	823	28.2
Mikita	462	1467	31.5
Potvin	459	1052	43.6
Esposito	549	1590	34.5
Ovechkin	443	1135	39.0
Robinson	309	958	32.2
Lafleur	420	1353	31.0
Jagr	610	1921	31.8
Trottier	423	1425	29.7
Clarke	333	1210	27.5
Lindsay	218	851	25.6
Sakic	631	1641	38.4
Bossy	378	1126	33.6
Yzerman	595	1755	33.9
H. Richard	162	1046	15.5
Chelios	407	948	42.9
Pilote	169	498	33.9
E. Seibert**	51	261	19.5
Park	377	896	42.1
Malkin	362	943	38.4
F. Mahovlich	304	1103	27.6
B. Geoffrion	302	822	36.7
Coffey	664	1531	43.4
Apps Sr.	83	432	19.2
Bathgate	311	973	32.0
T. Kennedy	138	560	24.6
P. Forsberg	323	885	36.5
MacInnis	722	1274	56.7
Kurri	395	1398	28.3
Schmidt	98	575	17.0
Selanne	588	1457	40.4
Pronger	374	698	53.6
D. Moore	182	607	30.0
M. Bentley	182	544	33.5
S. Abel	120	472	25.4
Br. Hull	536	1391	38.5
Leetch	542	1028	52.7

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Working my way down the old all time lists. I have more, just haven't transferred them yet. Will hopefully have 100 names by the end of the week uploaded.

I'd just like to say....anyone who doesn't have Henri Richard in your top 50. Over 1000 career points and only 15% came on the PP. I haven't seen anyone come remotely close to that thus far. Another gentlemen I hope gets his due with this project!

Edit: BTW, power play stats go back to the 33-34 season. So anyone who had playing time before that will not be included for obvious reasons.

*Played multiple seasons at F
**Does not include first 2 seasons as PP stats weren't available

 

[MXD]

I had figured Petit Richard would be the one with the lowest PP% points, but I would NEVER had guessed Grand Richard would have with the 3rd lowest.
Though it is revealing that the lowest players are two oldest here, Henri notwithstanding.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Power Play Points by Percentage:

All numbers taken from NHL.com

Name	PPP	TP	PP%
Gretzky	890	2857	31.1
Orr	324	915	35.4
Howe	564	1850	30.5
Lemieux	701	1723	40.7
Bo. Hull	324	1170	27.7
D. Harvey	232	540	43.0
Beliveau	442	1219	36.3
M. Richard	254	966	26.3
Bourque	761	1579	48.2
Lidstrom	590	1142	51.7
Crosby	415	1123	37.0
Messier	581	1887	30.8
Kelly*	232	823	28.2
Mikita	462	1467	31.5
Potvin	459	1052	43.6
Esposito	549	1590	34.5
Ovechkin	443	1135	39.0
Robinson	309	958	32.2
Lafleur	420	1353	31.0
Jagr	610	1921	31.8
Trottier	423	1425	29.7
Clarke	333	1210	27.5
Lindsay	218	851	25.6
Sakic	631	1641	38.4
Bossy	378	1126	33.6
Yzerman	595	1755	33.9
H. Richard	162	1046	15.5

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Working my way down the old all time lists. I have more, just haven't transferred them yet. Will hopefully have 100 names by the end of the week uploaded.

I'd just like to say....anyone who doesn't have Henri Richard in your top 50. Over 1000 career points and only 15% came on the PP. I haven't seen anyone come remotely close to that thus far. Another gentlemen I hope gets his due with this project!

Edit: BTW, power play stats go back to the 33-34 season. So anyone who had playing time before that will not be included for obvious reasons.

Subscribing to the theory that it's easier to get points on the power play than even strength, this adds ammo to the Bobby Hull vs Ovechkin debate, even if Ovechkin wins another Rocket Richard Trophy this season. And as much as it helps the Pocket Rocket, Lindsay, Trottier and Clarke also come out looking good on this list. Four elite two-way players.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I had figured Petit Richard would be the one with the lowest PP% points, but I would NEVER had guessed Grand Richard would have with the 3rd lowest.
Though it is revealing that the lowest players are two oldest here, Henri notwithstanding.

Makes you wonder how coaches ran their power plays back then. If anything, I would expect the 50's Habs to have higher percentages. When was the rule introduced where a penalized player left the box after a goal was scored? The Habs often scored two or three times during a two-minute power play leading up to that rule change.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Makes you wonder how coaches ran their power plays back then. If anything, I would expect the 50's Habs to have higher percentages. When was the rule introduced where a penalized player left the box after a goal was scored? The Habs often scored two or three times during a two-minute power play leading up to that rule change.

As per wikipedia

"
In hockey's formative years, teams were shorthanded for the entire length of a minor penalty. The NHL changed this rule following the 1955–56 season where the Montreal Canadiens frequently scored multiple goals on one power play. Most famous was a game on November 5, 1955, when Jean Béliveau scored three goals in 44 seconds, all on the same power play, in a 4–2 victory over the Boston Bruins.[5]"

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

You seem to be discounting how much top players ACTUALLY WANT TO BE #1. In a close race between Ovechkin and McDavid, both will try extra hard to score that last goal to be the best. They are both very proud athletes. Do you think Gretzky would've retired one game before beating Howe's record? Not a chance.

And it's strange to hear about "factors beyond an individual player's control." When Bossy scored 50 goals in the 80s and Ovechkin 50 goals in the 00s, they both "scored 50 goals." But because of League-wide scoring averages, their "50 goals" are viewed differently.

You are supposing Ovechkin and McDavid are not trying their hardest the rest of the time. Also, you are supposing by simply wanting to be consider the best they can score more, by sheer effort. I think these supposition are questionable.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I had figured Petit Richard would be the one with the lowest PP% points, but I would NEVER had guessed Grand Richard would have with the 3rd lowest.
Though it is revealing that the lowest players are two oldest here, Henri notwithstanding.

Yeah, I think a lot of folks knew Henri had a pretty low #, but I'm actually surprised it's THAT low.

I'll have the final list done by numerical order but I think we can already see a pretty clear upward trend in PP totals from the Rocket's time onward. Lindsay matches up well on a timeline with Richard and they're quite simliar.

I'm very impressed with Bobby Hull's even strength production. By the 60's and 70's forwards were generally sneaking into the low 30% range. It's one of the reasons why I still have him over Ovechkin in terms of goal scoring and production in general. But Ovi still has a real chance at getting by Bobby.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Yeah, I think a lot of folks knew Henri had a pretty low #, but I'm actually surprised it's THAT low.

I'll have the final list done by numerical order but I think we can already see a pretty clear upward trend in PP totals from the Rocket's time onward. Lindsay matches up well on a timeline with Richard and they're quite simliar.

I'm very impressed with Bobby Hull's even strength production. By the 60's and 70's forwards were generally sneaking into the low 30% range. It's one of the reasons why I still have him over Ovechkin in terms of goal scoring and production in general. But Ovi still has a real chance at getting by Bobby.

There's got to be something else in play here, too. Were there simply less penalties in the 40's-60's? Were there more coincidentals? Was penalty killing superior as a whole?

 

[MXD]

Makes you wonder how coaches ran their power plays back then. If anything, I would expect the 50's Habs to have higher percentages. When was the rule introduced where a penalized player left the box after a goal was scored? The Habs often scored two or three times during a two-minute power play leading up to that rule change.

..TBH, my call here is that there was probably a shift in the amount of power plays awarded. I mean, if you take out Henri Richard, who didn't play much PP, the two lowest players were the first to hit their prime.

@ImporterExporter , because you're already on this, where do, say, Elmer Lach and Doug Bentley stand? Just to put names who had a clear path to PP minutes (so as to compare apples with apples...), as opposed to players like Max Bentley and Milt Schmidt who were not always necessarily the first option?

 

[ImporterExporter]

There's got to be something else in play here, too. Were there simply less penalties in the 40's-60's? Were there more coincidentals? Was penalty killing superior as a whole?

I would wager (haven't looked that far into the league totals) that there were fewer penalties. Players got away with a ton more on the ice.

@Canadiens1958 can probably chime in on this before I even get the league averages.