Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Revenge of Michael Myers)

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Canadiens1958

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:laugh: I'm just pullin' your chain of course, k dog...

The heart of the matter is tying save pct. to volume. If you face a lot of shots, you're going to stop a lot of shots. Brodeur gets bad marks because he didn't have to face as many shots per game as some other guys, for instance...that's not Marty's fault, he gave up 2 just like everyone else...it's about timeliness and quality of goals against, not about how many shots you face...saves don't win games, bad goals against lose games...

As we'll come to see when these goalies come up...Brodeur was a master of not surrendering 3rd period leads in the playoffs, can't say the same for some of his peers...more on that later though...the heart of the matter is save pct. isn't tied to wins or talent (otherwise, the best save pct. runs in playoff history would have a far greater success rate than "meh" and 10 of the top 15 goalies of all time certainly aren't playing in this era...or, conversely, the pre-forward pass era, where certainly save percentages were higher)...it's tied to shot volume...everyone gives up 2, because if you give up 1, the debate is over and if you give up 3, no one's talking about you...

Shot volume is different from SOG volume and that is the difference maker.

Factor in missed shots - not required to stop at all and the numbers will not be the same yet they will be more revealing.
 

ImporterExporter

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Shot volume is different from SOG volume and that is the difference maker.

Factor in missed shots - not required to stop at all and the numbers will not be the same yet they will be more revealing.

I absolutely love your responses.

They remind of the old bar owner in the Boondock Saints. :laugh:

"We need to get you like a proverb book or something"
 
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Canadiens1958

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It's actually the opposite. The high SA sample is biased by the fact that any goalie that played terribly was already pulled before they got that far.

A goalie who goes 12/16 probably stays in the net for the entire 60 minutes. A goalie who finishes the first period 12/16 is probably warming the bench when the second period starts. So that means that a 30+ shot sample has very few results like, say, a goalie going 24/32, because they are nearly always pulled before they get that far. And that's why the 30+ shot bin has better results, you have to be playing well even to get there in the first place. What that means is that it is an artifact of sampling bias.

To show another example of how this can happen, every goalie in the league puts up much better numbers in wins than they do in losses.

Brodeur: .939 in wins, .863 in losses
Hasek: .947 in wins, .879 in losses
Roy: .937 in wins, .870 in losses

This is a much stronger effect than the low-shot/high-shot samples, so using the same logic we should claim that is easier for goalies on the best teams to put up high save percentages and harder for goalies on the worst teams to do so. But those numbers above don't actually mean anything. There is some relationship between team strength and save percentage, depending on which era we're talking about, but nothing nearly as big as those numbers show, and if you want to see what it is you look at goalie's overall winning percentage and their overall save percentage and figure it out that way. When you divide a sample up in such a way to exclude specific events, you can end up biasing your sub-sample and getting weird results. If that relationship doesn't duplicate over the entire data set, then it doesn't mean anything.

I've never seen any good evidence to not treat all shots against as independent. If there was a real relationship between shots against and save percentage, it would show up in the aggregate. It simply does not, though, except for periods of time like the Original Six and the Expansion Era when the relationship was actually negative (i.e. lower shots against mean higher save percentages). That would be a particularly crazy result to observe if there was a universal law that facing fewer shots was significantly harder. Why else do you think Klein and Reif gave a bonus to goalies based on shots faced in their Perseverance Rating back in the 1980s? The idea that Ken Dryden had it tougher than Gilles Meloche because he was facing less rubber is completely absurd.

Yet facing fewer shots in the shoot-out is harder than facing more shots in regulation and an intermediate amount in RS OT.

So the SV% stats require re-working.

Shoot out goalie is recognized as being successful when the shooter misses or fails in any fashion.

Applied to regulation or RS OT would be more revealing.
 

Canadiens1958

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You're right, it doesn't.

BUT, number crunching (which does have its merits), does get him much closer than the raw data which is flawed. See blow. And then you have a massive gap in postseason credentials. There is no way to get Hasek closer to Roy unless you just play the "he played for garbage" card, which isn't accurate. Yes, the bulk of his career was not played on a dynasty but Hasek was not manning the crease for expansion level teams.

For instance:

Roy led the entire league in save % in 87-88 at exactly .900!!! 90% would place you around 30 something or so in today's game.

Roy's career Save% is .910

Marc Andre Fleury's is .913

Last year a .900 save% would have placed you 39th in the entire league. 39th, alongside Carey Price btw. With 30 or more games played as the benchmark.

If THAT doesn't illustrate why you need to adjust for era I don't know what else to say.

Compare shots and SV% Gump Worsley with the Rangers and then the Canadiens.
 

Canadiens1958

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Yes. Leading the league in something >>>> coming second. It's calling "winning." Will to win, if you will.


More like "goals" >> "assists." I am of this viewpoint, even though I understand many aren't.


That's correct. There is nothing whatsoever special about the 32-46-82 statline. Leading the league in goals for the EIGHTH TIME is pretty darn special. Unique, even. It demonstrates phenomenal, inhuman consistency, the like of which was never demonstrated by anybody else, including Gretzky (5 times league leader) and Lemieux (3 times). Especially the current 31 teams, 600+ players league.

Add to that the total goal count a few years down the line that approaches 900, and voila. "Crosby who"?


*You* can say anything you want. While overall domination is a consideration, we can and should judge goalscorers exclusively on the number of goals they scored in all situations. Not "what they could do, if only they would concentrate exclusively on goalscoring." Who knows how many goals would Gordie Howe scored if his coach told him to forego his brilliant two-way play and concentrate exclusively on putting the puck in the net.


Most likely, he'd phone his buddy in Kremlin and that question would never come up again. Just as plausible. :naughty:

Difference in the skill set required to lead the league in a niche which is one-dimensional and winning which is multi-dimensional.

We do judge goalscorers properly - "Creating winning conditions". Some do some do not.
 

seventieslord

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It's actually the opposite. The high SA sample is biased by the fact that any goalie that played terribly was already pulled before they got that far.

A goalie who goes 12/16 probably stays in the net for the entire 60 minutes. A goalie who finishes the first period 12/16 is probably warming the bench when the second period starts. So that means that a 30+ shot sample has very few results like, say, a goalie going 24/32, because they are nearly always pulled before they get that far. And that's why the 30+ shot bin has better results, you have to be playing well even to get there in the first place. What that means is that it is an artifact of sampling bias.

To show another example of how this can happen, every goalie in the league puts up much better numbers in wins than they do in losses.

Brodeur: .939 in wins, .863 in losses
Hasek: .947 in wins, .879 in losses
Roy: .937 in wins, .870 in losses

This is a much stronger effect than the low-shot/high-shot samples, so using the same logic we should claim that is easier for goalies on the best teams to put up high save percentages and harder for goalies on the worst teams to do so. But those numbers above don't actually mean anything. There is some relationship between team strength and save percentage, depending on which era we're talking about, but nothing nearly as big as those numbers show, and if you want to see what it is you look at goalie's overall winning percentage and their overall save percentage and figure it out that way. When you divide a sample up in such a way to exclude specific events, you can end up biasing your sub-sample and getting weird results. If that relationship doesn't duplicate over the entire data set, then it doesn't mean anything.

I've never seen any good evidence to not treat all shots against as independent. If there was a real relationship between shots against and save percentage, it would show up in the aggregate. It simply does not, though, except for periods of time like the Original Six and the Expansion Era when the relationship was actually negative (i.e. lower shots against mean higher save percentages). That would be a particularly crazy result to observe if there was a universal law that facing fewer shots was significantly harder. Why else do you think Klein and Reif gave a bonus to goalies based on shots faced in their Perseverance Rating back in the 1980s? The idea that Ken Dryden had it tougher than Gilles Meloche because he was facing less rubber is completely absurd.

If this is all correct (and I'll leave the heavy scrutiny to the others), then those who say that more shots means higher sv% kinda have to go back to the drawing board.
 

Michael Farkas

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CG doesn't seem to be against that opinion...he seems to disagree with the conclusion made from the fact that when you face 30+ shots you have a higher save pct.

Apologies if that's misrepresentative...
 

seventieslord

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CG doesn't seem to be against that opinion...he seems to disagree with the conclusion made from the fact that when you face 30+ shots you have a higher save pct.

Apologies if that's misrepresentative...
I would just like somebody who's better at stats than me to tell me why the way I did it is not right, because if the way that I did it is right, then there is absolutely no correlation. Full stop.

the following is more subjective than anything, but I don't see why we would be looking at single-game segments to begin with. We don't look at a goalie's performance in a game and go, oh wow, what a good game he had with a 93.5 save percentage. We do, however, speak in those terms when a goalie performs at a certain level over a stretch of games or over a season. So why measure goaltenders by such small, broken up samples when there are so many factors at play within a game, like home/away, score effects, etc? Over time, those factors even out, and over time, the correlation you say exists, doesn't.
 

seventieslord

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actually, a fun test would be to take that exact same data set that I used to determine correlation, and then also factor in what CG is saying about how you never get to 30 shots if you're having a bad night.. Which makes perfect sense. I could take every single performance, or at least the ones that are 5 minutes or longer, and simply normalize them each to a /60 basis. then I could compare everyone's shots against/60 to their save percentage in each individual game, and I wouldn't be surprised if the very very weak correlation that I found previously, disappears completely.
 

ContrarianGoaltender

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CG doesn't seem to be against that opinion...he seems to disagree with the conclusion made from the fact that when you face 30+ shots you have a higher save pct.

Apologies if that's misrepresentative...

To be clear, I'm arguing that the shot data you posted from Deathstroke does not prove what it claims to prove and that everyone should reject the idea that there is a universal rule in hockey that fewer shots against necessarily means a lower save percentage and higher shots against means a higher save percentage. At various times in league history there has been some sort of observed relationship between shots against and save percentage, but it has mostly been negative (i.e. fewer shots against means a higher save percentage, more shots against means a lower save percentage). And even in periods where we see some sort of correlation, there is still plenty of individual variation between teams.

Just for completeness' sake, in case anybody cares (and also since I haven't seen a full rebuttal on this subforum yet to the incorrect idea that save percentage is significantly positively impacted by shots faced), there are two other factors that also help explain the high-shot/low-shot games observance: Scorer bias and score effects.

Shot counting is subjective, so for every NHL game there is an officially recorded shot total and a "true" shot total, i.e. the shot total that would be recorded if some superhumanly consistent shot counter rated every game by the exact same standard. Assuming a basic normal distribution, simple Bayesian reasoning would conclude that the farther we get away from average, the more likely it is that the "true" shot count diverges from the recorded one.

For example, everyone knows about the six shot game Toronto had in the playoffs against New Jersey in 2000. Toronto players at the time argued at the time that they had a lot more shots than that (Garry Valk was quoted as saying they had "13 or 14"). It is entirely reasonable to expect that there was something weird going on with that official scorer since six is such an extreme outlier given what we know about single game shot distributions in the NHL. The same logic applies to a 55 shot game, except in the other direction. Maybe it was only a "true" 52 shot game, but the goalie got credit for three extra stops during the many flurries around his crease that would have happened in such a game. In most games scorer bias is not a big deal, but for outliers it can absolutely have an impact, especially if you are looking at the ends of the distribution, particularly the very low shot games where the effect works to reduce recorded save percentages. The best way to deal with scorer bias though is not to focus on shots against bins, but to screen it out in other ways by analyzing all shots and saves for each rink separately and making appropriate adjustments to the numbers from each location, which will deal with the problem automatically.

Teams also play to the score, which means that teams in the lead tend to take fewer shots and teams that are behind tend to take more. Over the past three seasons, according to Natural Stat Trick, teams averaged 33.3 SF/60 when trailing and 27.2 SF/60 when leading in all situations. For the sake of comparison, the top team in the league (Pittsburgh) was at 33.3 SF/60 over that period and the bottom team (New Jersey) was at 27.6, showing that the score-based spread was actually greater than the observed spread based on team talent. What this means is that when a goalie is hot and his team is winning, he will tend to face even more shots than normal, while when a goalie starts poorly and his team falls behind, he might not get to face as many shots over the rest of the game to even out his performance. In other words, sometimes a goalie faces 30+ shots because he has a high save percentage, rather than the other way around.

You might expect that goalies who faced 20 shots or fewer over a full game must have had a much better win/loss record than goalies who faced 40+, but that's not actually the case. Over the same past three seasons, if you look at goalies who played at least 55 minutes but faced 20 shots or fewer, their collective win/loss record is just 204-152-21 (.569). For the 40+ shots against group, the collective record is 340-153-130 (.650). That's score effects in action, and therefore it shouldn't be surprising to see that one bin has better results than another save percentage-wise given the difference in the overall win percentage.

The last point of evidence in my argument that this is merely a case of cherry-picking a biased sample is that the high-shot/low-shot relationship appears to be true for every goalie in history. There are few things that are true for every goalie in history, because there has been a huge variance in terms of team systems and defensive abilities over the years. There have been many great defensive teams that allowed relatively few shots against (many different editions of the Montreal Canadiens come to mind), but there have also been great defensive teams that allowed a surprisingly high number of shots against (the 1960s Toronto Maple Leafs, for example, or the 1980s New York Islanders). There have been low-shot teams with great save percentages and low-shot teams with mediocre save percentages, basically every combination possible. This is a big part of the reason why we don't see obvious patterns in the data, and why each goalie/team case needs to be assessed on an individual basis when trying to determine how much of an impact the team had defensively. If something is true for every goalie in history, then it's pretty clearly something that falls in the same category as the example of goalies always playing better in wins than they do in losses, i.e. merely the case of a biased subsample that doesn't give any particularly useful information when you look at aggregate results.
 

ChiTownPhilly

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Perspective:
... fluid definitions.
Speaking of fluid definitions...

One drop of water added to a 95% full four-gallon container.

Ratio=1:232320.

This, gentle readers, is the value of your individual 120th selection in Round One.

{Formula-- 1/(Σ:120)•(32, the number of participants)}

Did you spend some time making sure you were confident about your 119th selection being better than your 120th selection? You better have; it counts for twice as much! [To whit, two drops of water in that same four-gallon container.]

So- when I saw the fulminations about the most widely known 120th selection here in our project, I had two thoughts...

1) FFS, lighten up, Francis.

2) QPQ, you are a freaking Marketing Genius!!! Seldom has such a meager resource been deployed to such an animating effect!!:bow: Chapeaux!
 
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Canadiens1958

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I would just like somebody who's better at stats than me to tell me why the way I did it is not right, because if the way that I did it is right, then there is absolutely no correlation. Full stop.

the following is more subjective than anything, but I don't see why we would be looking at single-game segments to begin with. We don't look at a goalie's performance in a game and go, oh wow, what a good game he had with a 93.5 save percentage. We do, however, speak in those terms when a goalie performs at a certain level over a stretch of games or over a season. So why measure goaltenders by such small, broken up samples when there are so many factors at play within a game, like home/away, score effects, etc? Over time, those factors even out, and over time, the correlation you say exists, doesn't.

Not a question of right or wrong but a question of including as many variables as available.
 

Canadiens1958

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actually, a fun test would be to take that exact same data set that I used to determine correlation, and then also factor in what CG is saying about how you never get to 30 shots if you're having a bad night.. Which makes perfect sense. I could take every single performance, or at least the ones that are 5 minutes or longer, and simply normalize them each to a /60 basis. then I could compare everyone's shots against/60 to their save percentage in each individual game, and I wouldn't be surprised if the very very weak correlation that I found previously, disappears completely.

In the alternative, repeat with the 70 game NHL RS schedule, one goalie system where goalies actually played thru fatigue and bad starts.

Compare the results.
 

seventieslord

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Not a question of right or wrong but a question of including as many variables as available.

You're free to share what other variables you think are relevant, but the point of such a study really is to see if, when all of these shot and save data is analyzed, are shot volume and save percentage really late, or do they only appear linked when the data is Cherry picked?
 

Canadiens1958

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To be clear, I'm arguing that the shot data you posted from Deathstroke does not prove what it claims to prove and that everyone should reject the idea that there is a universal rule in hockey that fewer shots against necessarily means a lower save percentage and higher shots against means a higher save percentage. At various times in league history there has been some sort of observed relationship between shots against and save percentage, but it has mostly been negative (i.e. fewer shots against means a higher save percentage, more shots against means a lower save percentage). And even in periods where we see some sort of correlation, there is still plenty of individual variation between teams.

Just for completeness' sake, in case anybody cares (and also since I haven't seen a full rebuttal on this subforum yet to the incorrect idea that save percentage is significantly positively impacted by shots faced), there are two other factors that also help explain the high-shot/low-shot games observance: Scorer bias and score effects.

Shot counting is subjective, so for every NHL game there is an officially recorded shot total and a "true" shot total, i.e. the shot total that would be recorded if some superhumanly consistent shot counter rated every game by the exact same standard. Assuming a basic normal distribution, simple Bayesian reasoning would conclude that the farther we get away from average, the more likely it is that the "true" shot count diverges from the recorded one.

For example, everyone knows about the six shot game Toronto had in the playoffs against New Jersey in 2000. Toronto players at the time argued at the time that they had a lot more shots than that (Garry Valk was quoted as saying they had "13 or 14"). It is entirely reasonable to expect that there was something weird going on with that official scorer since six is such an extreme outlier given what we know about single game shot distributions in the NHL. The same logic applies to a 55 shot game, except in the other direction. Maybe it was only a "true" 52 shot game, but the goalie got credit for three extra stops during the many flurries around his crease that would have happened in such a game. In most games scorer bias is not a big deal, but for outliers it can absolutely have an impact, especially if you are looking at the ends of the distribution, particularly the very low shot games where the effect works to reduce recorded save percentages. The best way to deal with scorer bias though is not to focus on shots against bins, but to screen it out in other ways by analyzing all shots and saves for each rink separately and making appropriate adjustments to the numbers from each location, which will deal with the problem automatically.

Teams also play to the score, which means that teams in the lead tend to take fewer shots and teams that are behind tend to take more. Over the past three seasons, according to Natural Stat Trick, teams averaged 33.3 SF/60 when trailing and 27.2 SF/60 when leading in all situations. For the sake of comparison, the top team in the league (Pittsburgh) was at 33.3 SF/60 over that period and the bottom team (New Jersey) was at 27.6, showing that the score-based spread was actually greater than the observed spread based on team talent. What this means is that when a goalie is hot and his team is winning, he will tend to face even more shots than normal, while when a goalie starts poorly and his team falls behind, he might not get to face as many shots over the rest of the game to even out his performance. In other words, sometimes a goalie faces 30+ shots because he has a high save percentage, rather than the other way around.

You might expect that goalies who faced 20 shots or fewer over a full game must have had a much better win/loss record than goalies who faced 40+, but that's not actually the case. Over the same past three seasons, if you look at goalies who played at least 55 minutes but faced 20 shots or fewer, their collective win/loss record is just 204-152-21 (.569). For the 40+ shots against group, the collective record is 340-153-130 (.650). That's score effects in action, and therefore it shouldn't be surprising to see that one bin has better results than another save percentage-wise given the difference in the overall win percentage.

The last point of evidence in my argument that this is merely a case of cherry-picking a biased sample is that the high-shot/low-shot relationship appears to be true for every goalie in history. There are few things that are true for every goalie in history, because there has been a huge variance in terms of team systems and defensive abilities over the years. There have been many great defensive teams that allowed relatively few shots against (many different editions of the Montreal Canadiens come to mind), but there have also been great defensive teams that allowed a surprisingly high number of shots against (the 1960s Toronto Maple Leafs, for example, or the 1980s New York Islanders). There have been low-shot teams with great save percentages and low-shot teams with mediocre save percentages, basically every combination possible. This is a big part of the reason why we don't see obvious patterns in the data, and why each goalie/team case needs to be assessed on an individual basis when trying to determine how much of an impact the team had defensively. If something is true for every goalie in history, then it's pretty clearly something that falls in the same category as the example of goalies always playing better in wins than they do in losses, i.e. merely the case of a biased subsample that doesn't give any particularly useful information when you look at aggregate results.

Not buying.

Saves and SOGs are extremely subjective. Shots attempted are not nearly as subjective.

Iffy about defensive teams and 60s Leafs. Question is framed awkwardly.

Frame the question in terms of rested vs fatigued teams at both ends.

December 26, 1959

Chicago Blackhawks - Montréal Canadiens - December 26th, 1959

Flyers History - Philadelphia Flyer Game Summary

Look at the distribution of SOGs and goals.

Factor in that Chicago was playing their 3 road game in four nights while Montreal was playing at home tested, first game in 6 days.
Finally it is obvious that Toe Blake kept the pressure on by using four lines.
 
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seventieslord

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Did you spend some time making sure you were confident about your 119th selection being better than your 120th selection? You better have; it counts for twice as much!

Actually, it's funny you bring this up because I've always railed against 1-2-3-4-5... point systems when compiling lists, for the very reason that the 2nd last name on the list shouldn't get twice as many points as the last name, and the 10th last shouldn't get ten times as many, and so on.

It's been a decade so I doubt anyone else remembers this, but the reason we've always submitted lists 20 names longer than the target final list, was to appease me and my concerns. I like that we submit lists longer than the final list, but I still don't like that we start at one point when tallying the lists. I'd rather start at something like 100, so that simply making the list is rewarded.

Doesn't affect how any of the players on one individual list relate to eachother, of course (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 is the same as 101, 102, 103, 104, 105), but start adding multiple lists together and you see what I mean. A Datsyuk ranked 63rd gets 58 points. Suppose no one else ranks him, and 20 of us all rank Doug Bentley in the bottom three, and he ends up with a theoretical 57 points. Who actually deserves to place higher? The guy one player advocated for, or the one 20 of us did? In a system with appearance points, Bentley easily tops Datsyuk.
 
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Canadiens1958

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...and you think that this would affect whether or not shot volume affects save percentage? I'm confused

You would not be confused since a fair number if not most of the questions would be answered.

1956-57 NHL RS. First 1 goal per PP season.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Three regular goalies at or north of 0.920 SV % until Sawchuk broke down. Big gap between top and bottom three, Interesting team effect with Plante and McNeil in Montreal. Likewise Boston with/without Sawchuk.

Then blend in or compare against "Days of Rest" data.
 

Canadiens1958

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You're free to share what other variables you think are relevant, but the point of such a study really is to see if, when all of these shot and save data is analyzed, are shot volume and save percentage really late, or do they only appear linked when the data is Cherry picked?

This has been done.

Cherry picked data? Not really.

Limited to this decade, modern scheduling, a two goalie system drifting to three.

What about other eras with different playing conditions?
 

Canadiens1958

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Actually, it's funny you bring this up because I've always railed against 1-2-3-4-5... point systems when compiling lists, for the very reason that the 2nd last name on the list shouldn't get twice as many points as the last name, and the 10th last shouldn't get ten times as many, and so on.

It's been a decade so I doubt anyone else remembers this, but the reason we've always submitted lists 20 names longer than the target final list, was to appease me and my concerns. I like that we submit lists longer than the final list, but I still don't like that we start at one point when tallying the lists. I'd rather start at something like 100, so that simply making the list is rewarded.

Doesn't affect how any of the players on one individual list relate to eachother, of course (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 is the same as 101, 102, 103, 104, 105), but start adding multiple lists together and you see what I mean. A Datsyuk ranked 63rd gets 58 points. Suppose no one else ranks him, and 20 of us all rank Doug Bentley in the bottom three, and he ends up with a theoretical 57 points. Who actually deserves to place higher? The guy one player advocated for, or the one 20 of us did? In a system with appearance points, Bentley easily tops Datsyuk.

Ranking point system reflects the way the game is played.

Your Doug Bentley abstraction does not reflect voting patterns in reality. Combine the various projects to date and find a similar voting pattern as your abstraction. Skeptical that you will.
 

seventieslord

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You would not be confused since a fair number if not most of the questions would be answered.

1956-57 NHL RS. First 1 goal per PP season.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Three regular goalies at or north of 0.920 SV % until Sawchuk broke down. Big gap between top and bottom three, Interesting team effect with Plante and McNeil in Montreal. Likewise Boston with/without Sawchuk.

Then blend in or compare against "Days of Rest" data.

and how does this relate to whether/how shot volume affects save percentage?
 

seventieslord

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This has been done.

Cherry picked data? Not really.

Limited to this decade, modern scheduling, a two goalie system drifting to three.

What about other eras with different playing conditions?

I suggest you reread TCG's post again about the data if you don't think it's cherrypicked data that tells us you end up with a higher save percentage because you had more shots against.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Ranking point system reflects the way the game is played.

Your Doug Bentley abstraction does not reflect voting patterns in reality. Combine the various projects to date and find a similar voting pattern as your abstraction. Skeptical that you will.

I'm not saying this exact situation happens regularly, I'm saying that we've produced a system where it could, and we could easily prevent it by having appearance points, but we don't. In the end, the right 110 names are going to come up for discussion, so it's not a major deal. Just from a logic standpoint it's always been a pet peeve.
 
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