Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Revenge of Michael Myers)

[Kyle McMahon]

Now imagine Getzlaf on the same ice as Wickenheiser. How long do you think she would last?

If playing by current NHL rules where pretty much all physical play is forbidden, I would think she'd easily last all 60 minutes.

But seriously, the Canada-USA gold medal game from the most recent Olympics was the most physical and intense hockey game I have watched in recent years. The players on the two sides legitimately hated each other and would stop at nothing to win. All the players in the NHL seem to be off-season golf buddies now.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

So it looks like we have 208 names who made the Round 1 aggregate list. There were 220 names on the "best player by position" projects (which were done from 2011 to 2015).

Here are the 27 players on our Round 1 list who weren't included in the "best player by position" projects:

George Armstrong, Dan Bain, Patrice Bergeron, Vsevolod Bobrov, Drew Doughty, Frank Foyston, Bob Gainey, Hap Holmes, Patrick Kane, Erik Karlsson, Duncan Keith, Anze Kopitar, Pat LaFontaine, Eddie Litzenberger, Hakan Loob, Connor McDavid, Frank McGee, Carey Price, Nikolai Sologubov, Steven Stamkos, Vyacheslav Starshinov, Jonathan Toews, Sven Tumba, Jack Walker, Shea Weber, Hayley Wickenheiser, Vladimir Zabrodsky

Of those, 11 are active players (Bergeron, Doughty, Kane, Karlsson, Keith, Kopitar, McDavid, Price, Stamkos, Toews, Weber) who have either started their careers, or significantly added to their legacies, since the lists were made. The remainder is an interesting mix of primarily Europeans, old-timers, and one woman.

====

There were 39 players in the positional projects, not included in our Round 1 aggregate list. As for the question of "best player not ranked" (based on the original positional lists - not saying that these are perfectly accurate, and are out of date anyway):

Centres - Frank Federickson (53), Darryl Sittler (56), Duke Keats (58)
Wingers - Michel Goulet (41), Patrik Elias (45), Daniel Alfredsson (47)
Defensemen - Butch Bourchard (45), Carl Brewer (46), Larry Murphy (50)
Goalies - Harry Lumley (27), Chuck Rayner (28), Hap Holmes (30)

 

[ImporterExporter]

That's more Sprague Cleghorn actually, and the result is that he's suspended, while Hayley played with a full shield, so that's a very, very useless move.

Oh, and she's also bigger than him, too! (Newsy, not Sprague)

The average height and weight of players (the human species as a whole) was smaller 100+ years ago then it is today.

I highly, highly doubt even the greatest woman's hockey player of all time would have even the slightest chance against HOF hockey players, be it from 1910 or 2010. And i don't think there is a shred of sexism with that sentiment. It's just biology.

 

[BenchBrawl]

So it looks like we have 208 names who made the Round 1 aggregate list. There were 220 names on the "best player by position" projects (which were done from 2011 to 2015).

Here are the 28 players on our Round 1 list who weren't included in the "best player by position" projects:

George Armstrong, Dan Bain, Patrice Bergeron, Vsevolod Bobrov, Georges Boucher, Drew Doughty, Frank Foyston, Bob Gainey, Hap Holmes, Patrick Kane, Erik Karlsson, Duncan Keith, Anze Kopitar, Pat LaFontaine, Eddie Litzenberger, Hakan Loob, Connor McDavid, Frank McGee, Carey Price, Nikolai Sologubov, Steven Stamkos, Vyacheslav Starshinov, Jonathan Toews, Sven Tumba, Jack Walker, Shea Weber, Hayley Wickenheiser, Vladimir Zabrodsky

Of those, 11 are active players (Bergeron, Doughty, Kane, Karlsson, Keith, Kopitar, McDavid, Price, Stamkos, Toews, Weber) who have either started their careers, or significantly added to their legacies, since the lists were made. The remainder is an interesting mix of primarily Europeans, old-timers, and one woman.

====

There were 40 players in the positional projects, not included in our Round 1 aggregate list. As for the question of "best player not ranked" (based on the original positional lists - not saying that these are perfectly accurate, and are out of date anyway):

Centres - Frank Federickson (53), Darryl Sittler (56), Duke Keats (58)
Wingers - Michel Goulet (41), Patrik Elias (45), Daniel Alfredsson (47)
Defensemen - Butch Bourchard (45), Carl Brewer (46), Buck Boucher (48)
Goalies - Harry Lumley (27), Chuck Rayner (28), Hap Holmes (30)

Georges Boucher was ranked in the Top 60 Defensemen project.

Seems like I was "right" with my pick of Frank Fredrickson, whom I prefer over the rest, as much as one can be "right" about it which is subjective.

 

[BenchBrawl]

That's more Sprague Cleghorn actually, and the result is that he's suspended, while Hayley played with a full shield, so that's a very, very useless move.

Oh, and she's also bigger than him, too! (Newsy, not Sprague)

They'd just break her leg with a slash.The cops would come in, but then a general brawl would ensue including the crowd.

24 people would be arrested.

 

[VanIslander]

Seems like I was "right" with my pick of Frank Fredrickson, whom I prefer over the rest, as much as one can be "right" about it which is subjective.

C'mon. I stated Fredrickson or Mickay and you then replied with a few names of guys others had already said they'd listed, then you mentioned Fredrickson.

 

[BenchBrawl]

C'mon. I stated Fredrickson or Mickay and you then replied with a few names of guys others had already said they'd listed, then you mentioned Fredrickson.

We were both right it seems

You called it first.

 

[DitchMarner]

Surprised by the Stamkos inclusion.

Is it an absolute given that Kopitar and Toews are better?

Or that McDavid has already surpassed his career? Yeah, I know McDavid is awesome and has two Art Rosses, but Stammer's finished second in the scoring race twice and also has a couple of additional top five scoring finishes, a 60 goal season in an era where that goal total is otherworldly and two Rocket Richards.

 

[ImporterExporter]

My word did the Pens and Oilers take me back to my childhood last night! The old man Crosby (feels weird saying that) can still dangle and backhand.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Where do you have Bobby?

As Hull is clearly (to me) the best to ever play at his position, I have him ranked in a manner consistent with that understanding. I expect we'll be discussing him a lot in Vote 2.

I go back-and-forth on whether to have him or Roy at number 5. Having said that, I understand that Béliveau or Harvey are both credible choices for that opening. I'm not that emotionally invested in the outcome to the number 5 slot that I'd protest if any of those four wind up there. Now, if someone argues for Maurice Richard at number 5, I'll push back a bit. [Fortunately, I think I'll have some company there.]

If [Fr_nk forbid!] someone mentions Crosby as worthy of that slot, then I'd be inclined to respond energetically.

 

[BenchBrawl]

My word did the Pens and Oilers take me back to my childhood last night! The old man Crosby (feels weird saying that) can still dangle and backhand.

Wow what a great goal

 

[TANK200]

I'm curious to see how Terry Sawchuk fares on this list. He seems to be consistently ranked among the top 6-8 goalies of all time, yet his stats don't seem to support this ranking. He only ranked in the top 3 for save percentage a single time in his career, despite save percentage being likely the most indicative stat with respect to goalie performance. Comparatively, Jacques Plante, Glenn Hall and Johnny Bower were among the league leaders in save percentage on a consistent basis. Even Gump Worsely, who is almost unanimously ranked behind Sawchuk, had significantly better save percentage statistics. I recall that save percentages dating back to the 1950s have only become available in recent years. And to Sawchuk's credit, save percentage statistics are not currently available for his best years during the Red Wings dynasty of the early 1950s. However, his all-time ranking among goalies seems to be based on the success of a dynasty team with Gordie Howe, Red Kelly, Ted Lindsay, Sid Abel, etc. Even if his stats were outstanding during those five years, would that be enough to cancel out the remainder of his career that seems mediocre at best?

 

[MXD]

I'm curious to see how Terry Sawchuk fares on this list. He seems to be consistently ranked among the top 6-8 goalies of all time, yet his stats don't seem to support this ranking. He only ranked in the top 3 for save percentage a single time in his career, despite save percentage being likely the most indicative stat with respect to goalie performance. Comparatively, Jacques Plante, Glenn Hall and Johnny Bower were among the league leaders in save percentage on a consistent basis. Even Gump Worsely, who is almost unanimously ranked behind Sawchuk, had significantly better save percentage statistics. I recall that save percentages dating back to the 1950s have only become available in recent years. And to Sawchuk's credit, save percentage statistics are not currently available for his best years during the Red Wings dynasty of the early 1950s. However, his all-time ranking among goalies seems to be based on the success of a dynasty team with Gordie Howe, Red Kelly, Ted Lindsay, Sid Abel, etc. Even if his stats were outstanding during those five years, would that be enough to cancel out the remainder of his career that seems mediocre at best?

I'm probably one of the lowest guys on Terry Sawchuck here, at least when it comes to where he belongs on the pecking order of netminders. I have him out of what's commonly called The Big 7, because I don't think a Top-7 exists in the first place : There's a big-6, and little 4 (of which Sawchuk is part of). He's at best (to me, again) the 3rd most useful member of the dynasty, past Howe and Kelly, and I could probably be convinced to drop him, should a good case to this effect be presented.

But the underlined needs to be corrected (before others chime in). We don't have the numbers for Sawchuk's first five seasons, which were, roughly, his best seasons, and he went AS1 X 3 + AS2 X 2. Those numbers were obtained with good teams, I know. In which case, we must not forget that he played on less-than-optimal teams for the reminder of his prime.

Also, while Sawchuck's numbers don't look that great post-dynasty, just everyone (who saw him play) clearly tought of him as a top netminder (or the top netminder), and I don't think we can quite ignore what people who saw him play (in his prime) had to say (especially in the absence of numbers).

 

[ImporterExporter]

As Hull is clearly (to me) the best to ever play at his position, I have him ranked in a manner consistent with that understanding. I expect we'll be discussing him a lot in Vote 2.

I go back-and-forth on whether to have him or Roy at number 5. Having said that, I understand that Béliveau or Harvey are both credible choices for that opening. I'm not that emotionally invested in the outcome to the number 5 slot that I'd protest if any of those four wind up there. Now, if someone argues for Maurice Richard at number 5, I'll push back a bit. [Fortunately, I think I'll have some company there.]

If [Fr_nk forbid!] someone mentions Crosby as worthy of that slot, then I'd be inclined to respond energetically.

Well it's nice to see someone else have Roy as high as I do!

I think had Bobby not left the NHL he'd have the 5 spot absolutely locked down in near universal fashion (maybe even bumping Lemieux off the traditional 4 spot) but given his personality and the times I'm not that surprised he took the money and ran.

I'm curious to see if anyone holds Hull's off ice behavior against him. He definitely seemed to be a real shit human being, especially towards women but he's not the only sports figure to live a less than charmed life outside of hockey. I personally seperate the two and won't let it impact where I place him (he's between 6-9 for me). As you said, he's the best LW ever and I agree completely with that sentiment.

 

[Canadiens1958]

My word did the Pens and Oilers take me back to my childhood last night! The old man Crosby (feels weird saying that) can still dangle and backhand.

Blatant example of rested vs unrested, effective line changes and the backhand.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Blatant example of rested vs unrested, effective line changes and the backhand.

Also, extra space on the ice with the 3 v 3.

One of the greatest backhands in the history of the game IMO. Since he's come into the league I've never witnessed anyone pot so many and be able to generate ridiculous amounts of lift and pace. I think it's one of the reasons Sid has favored a near flat blade.

 

[MXD]

Well it's nice to see someone else have Roy as high as I do!

I think had Bobby not left the NHL he'd have the 5 spot absolutely locked down in near universal fashion (maybe even bumping Lemieux off the traditional 4 spot) but given his personality and the times I'm not that surprised he took the money and ran.

I'm curious to see if anyone holds Hull's off ice behavior against him. He definitely seemed to be a real **** human being, especially towards women but he's not the only sports figure to live a less than charmed life outside of hockey. I personally seperate the two and won't let it impact where I place him (he's between 6-9 for me). As you said, he's the best LW ever and I agree completely with that sentiment.

Bobby Hull is far from the worst offender in that regards amongst players who will make the final list. I personally didn't care for this, as I don't think his shenanigans impeded his teams.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Bobby Hull is far from the worst offender in that regards amongst players who will make the final list. I personally didn't care for this, as I don't think his shenanigans impeded his teams.

I'm with you 100% on the first part. I certainly wouldn't condone any sort of physical violence against women (or any innocent person for that matter) and there are worse offenders in hockey and elsewhere.

I'm not sure we can quantify the impact (if any) it had on those Chicago teams. Obviously we weren't in the locker room and have no idea what was said between folks, if any drama was brought with him at all. Hence why I won't hold it against him, unless somebody out there has concrete evidene to the contrary.

 

[TANK200]

I'm probably one of the lowest guys on Terry Sawchuck here, at least when it comes to where he belongs on the pecking order of netminders. I have him out of what's commonly called The Big 7, because I don't think a Top-7 exists in the first place : There's a big-6, and little 4 (of which Sawchuk is part of). He's at best (to me, again) the 3rd most useful member of the dynasty, past Howe and Kelly, and I could probably be convinced to drop him, should a good case to this effect be presented.

But the underlined needs to be corrected (before others chime in). We don't have the numbers for Sawchuk's first five seasons, which were, roughly, his best seasons, and he went AS1 X 3 + AS2 X 2. Those numbers were obtained with good teams, I know. In which case, we must not forget that he played on less-than-optimal teams for the reminder of his prime.

Also, while Sawchuck's numbers don't look that great post-dynasty, just everyone (who saw him play) clearly tought of him as a top netminder (or the top netminder), and I don't think we can quite ignore what people who saw him play (in his prime) had to say (especially in the absence of numbers).

I think that I qualified my comment regarding Sawchuk's save percentage rankings when I noted that these statistics are not currently available for his best five years. I tend to place more reliance on statistics than anecdotes when the former are available, and it seems clear that at least after Sawchuk's best five years, he was clearly worse than at least 3 other goalies on a consistent basis. In the absence of statistics, you are correct that we need to rely on contemporary opinions from those who saw him play. I still rank him among the all-time greats, but he would be closer to #10 among goalies for me, although I haven't actually made a list.

 

[Michael Farkas]

despite save percentage being likely the most indicative stat with respect to goalie performance.

I wish this mindset would go away...it's just not accurate.

 

[MXD]

I think that I qualified my comment regarding Sawchuk's save percentage rankings when I noted that these statistics are not currently available for his best five years. I tend to place more reliance on statistics than anecdotes when the former are available, and it seems clear that at least after Sawchuk's best five years, he was clearly worse than at least 3 other goalies on a consistent basis. In the absence of statistics, you are correct that we need to rely on contemporary opinions from those who saw him play. I still rank him among the all-time greats, but he would be closer to #10 among goalies for me, although I haven't actually made a list.

Yeah, you did. But I was just waking up and it took a surprisingly long time to process than information, and when I realized you did, I had already typed down 90% of my post

 

[VanIslander]

As Hull is clearly (to me) the best to ever play at his position, I have him ranked in a manner consistent with that understanding.

What about the "It's the weakest position, having the least talented competition" argument?

Luc Robitaille was an NHL all star (five 1sts, two 2nds) for seven consecutive years to start his career, scoring 717 points by the age of 26. Some critics around here discount that by saying the left wing position was weak, there being few talented competitors for positional honors.

 

[MXD]

I wish this mindset would go away...it's just not accurate.

To be fair... on substance, he has a point, because there's nothing tangible indicating that Sawchuck was, all-in-all, above average as an NHL netminder after his dynasty years.

But when Jacques Plante and Glenn Hall occupy two spots in the "above average" group, it's not so bad.

 

[Orange Dragon]

I wish this mindset would go away...it's just not accurate.

What stat is more indicative in your opinion? Surely not GAA or Wins?

 

[TANK200]

I wish this mindset would go away...it's just not accurate.

What statistic would you say is superior? GAA? Wins? Stanley Cups? The good old fashioned eye-test, which has consistently proven to be so reliable?