Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Revenge of Michael Myers)

[quoipourquoi]

Let’s not comment on who’s a fan of who(m?). Glass houses and whatnot.


Personally, I lean pretty heavily on Sawchuk’s established reputation as one of the more dominant-at-his-best players of the O6 era and continue to be utterly confused as to how goaltenders like Durnan and Sawchuk retroactively tank relative to their peers (in all positions) in HOH rankings.

It’s asking for a strange juxtaposition of their eventual ranking on this list and their status as the best to ever play the position up to the time in which they played it. You’re all spoiled by the increase in goaltenders with 15+ years of relevance, something aided by the increased availability of NHL jobs (but then so few of you vote for them, so...). God forbid post-prime Sawchuk be just the 4th best goaltender in the world, you’ll all criticize him for being average while ignoring that average means something completely different in a field of 6 than a field of 100+.

*steps off soapbox and whips it across the room*

Or to put it in a way you’ll all understand it, this is like putting Frank Nighbor outside the top-50.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Personally, I lean pretty heavily on Sawchuk’s established reputation as one of the more dominant-at-his-best players of the O6 era and continue to be utterly confused as to how goaltenders like Durnan and Sawchuk retroactively tank relative to their peers (in all positions) in HOH rankings.

...not on my list they don't.

 

[MXD]

Let’s not comment on who’s a fan of who(m?). Glass houses and whatnot.


Personally, I lean pretty heavily on Sawchuk’s established reputation as one of the more dominant-at-his-best players of the O6 era and continue to be utterly confused as to how goaltenders like Durnan and Sawchuk retroactively tank relative to their peers (in all positions) in HOH rankings.

It’s asking for a strange juxtaposition of their eventual ranking on this list and their status as the best to ever play the position up to the time in which they played it. You’re all spoiled by the increase in goaltenders with 15+ years of relevance, something aided by the increased availability of NHL jobs (but then so few of you vote for them, so...). God forbid post-prime Sawchuk be just the 4th best goaltender in the world, you’ll all criticize him for being average while ignoring that average means something completely different in a field of 6 than a field of 100+.

*steps off soapbox and whips it across the room*

Or to put it in a way you’ll all understand it, this is like putting Frank Nighbor outside the top-50.

I think the issue is more that he became average or worst (league-wise, of course) the minute he wasn't anymore playing on a dynasty, and, thus, that we can suspect he didn't have that much influence on, you know, winning.

Durnan's case is completely different : not a good playoff performer (not bad, but hardly impressive...), short career at NHL-level, awful competition at the beginning of his NHL career, when he was also team that was head, shoulders and torso above every other one. He absolutely deserves a Mulligan for only one of these (the short NHL career). Durnan didn't came close to not make my list; it's just that I didn't even think twice before ranking, say, the other short NHL careers netminders ahead of him (that is, Gardiner and Dryden), for various reasons. The latter two exceeded their "Expected Cup Wins", while Durnan probably undershot it. Don't forget that one of the reasons why Durnan ranks higher than Gardiner is common knowledge is, well :

208-112-62, 2 SC vs. 111-152-52, 1 SC.

And despite my strong reservations on Nighbor, he's very, very comfortably Inside my Top-50.

 

[steve141]

Yet, as I was growing up, he was consistently considered the greatest goalie of all time. I think as recently as the mid 90's he was the consensus choice as the number one goalie. Yesterday, I flipped through another one of those Hockey News special issues, where they ranked the top 100 goalies of all time. Who was first? You guessed it... Sawchuk.

Myself, I have him number 28 on my list, and fourth among goaltenders.

A big part of Sawchuk's legacy was that for about thirty years he was the goalie with most wins. Here's how the list of most wins by goaltenders looked like when he retired:

1. Sawchuk - 445
2. Hall - 394
3. Plante - 382

In recent years five goaltenders have surpassed Sawchuk's record, so his win totalt don't look as impressive anymore.

It's a bit like how many people don't realize that when Howe first retired his career point totals were 50% ahead of #2 (Beliveau), virtually the same as Gretzky's are to #2 (Jagr) today.

When Howe entered the league the all-time leading scorer Syd Howe had scored 518 points. Howe scored about 250% more than that during his career. The idea of someone scoring 1800+ points in 1946 was probably more unfathomable than the idea of scoring 2800+ points in the 80-90s.

(And poor Beliveau has gone from the #2 scorer all-time in 1971 to #41 today.)

 

[DannyGallivan]

A big part of Sawchuk's legacy was that for about thirty years he was the goalie with most wins. Here's how the list of most wins by goaltenders looked like when he retired:

1. Sawchuk - 445
2. Hall - 394
3. Plante - 382

In recent years five goaltenders have surpassed Sawchuk's record, so his win totalt don't look as impressive anymore.

It's a bit like how many people don't realize that when Howe first retired his career point totals were 50% ahead of #2 (Beliveau), virtually the same as Gretzky's are to #2 (Jagr) today.

When Howe entered the league the all-time leading scorer Syd Howe had scored 518 points. Howe scored about 250% more than that during his career. The idea of someone scoring 1800+ points in 1946 was probably more unfathomable than the idea of scoring 2800+ points in the 80-90s.

(And poor Beliveau has gone from the #2 scorer all-time in 1971 to #41 today.)

When I was a kid I was always most impressed by Sawchuk being the all-time shut-out leader by a mile. Recently I recognized that shutouts are virtually an "aesthetic-only" stat. However, during his peak he was perhaps the most dominant goalie of all time.

 

[unknown33]

Just wondering. The opener of the prelimitary thread said something like:
"No, I don’t know what to do with Connor McDavid either"

Was it discussed somewhere already? Did he make most voters lists? I would assume there is a wide spread in his placement.

 

[MXD]

Just wondering. The opener of the prelimitary thread said something like:
"No, I don’t know what to do with Connor McDavid either"

Was it discussed somewhere already? Did he make most voters lists? I would assume there is a wide spread in his placement.

Only one user said he'd ranked him.

There was some discussions about him early on. Will you provide a list?

 

[Sentinel]

Sawchuk's legacy was

A big part of Sawchuk's legacy was that for about thirty years he was the goalie with most wins. Here's how the list of most wins by goaltenders looked like when he retired:

1. Sawchuk - 445
2. Hall - 394
3. Plante - 382

In recent years five goaltenders have surpassed Sawchuk's record, so his win totalt don't look as impressive anymore.

It's a bit like how many people don't realize that when Howe first retired his career point totals were 50% ahead of #2 (Beliveau), virtually the same as Gretzky's are to #2 (Jagr) today.

When Howe entered the league the all-time leading scorer Syd Howe had scored 518 points. Howe scored about 250% more than that during his career. The idea of someone scoring 1800+ points in 1946 was probably more unfathomable than the idea of scoring 2800+ points in the 80-90s.

(And poor Beliveau has gone from the #2 scorer all-time in 1971 to #41 today.)

I think a bigger part of Sawchuk's legacy is these numbers:

YR GP W SO GAA

1951 6 - 2 - 1 - 1.68
1952 8 - 8 - 4 - 0.63
1954 12 - 8 - 2 - 1.60
1955 11 - 8 - 1 - 2.36

 

[Michael Farkas]

Shutouts are the silver bullet when games matter most - in the playoffs.

There are two guys that have about 33% more playoff shutouts than anyone else in history (Roy and Brodeur), no surprise they have 7 Cups between them...can't lose with a whitewashing...

 

[quoipourquoi]

Just wondering. The opener of the prelimitary thread said something like:
"No, I don’t know what to do with Connor McDavid either"

Was it discussed somewhere already? Did he make most voters lists? I would assume there is a wide spread in his placement.

I think most (all) of the McDavid talk was in the original preliminary thread.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Shutouts are the silver bullet when games matter most - in the playoffs.

There are two guys that have about 33% more playoff shutouts than anyone else in history (Roy and Brodeur), no surprise they have 7 Cups between them...can't lose with a whitewashing...

It’s a guaranteed win, but they’re just so influenced by era in an impossible to adjust manner that I usually ignore them in a career sense. From 2002-2004, the 74-year record of 4 shutouts in a single playoff which lasted all of these variations of the playoff format was exceeded by five different goaltenders in just the three years.

 

[DannyGallivan]

From 2002-2004, the 74-year record of 4 shutouts in a single playoff which lasted all of these variations of the playoff format was exceeded by five different goaltenders in just the three years.

Of course, that's four shutouts in eight games.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sure, they're also influenced by team effects...proper talent evaluation still applies...

Hasek - Chi/Buf career - 5 playoff shutouts. Had 6 in the 2002 run alone with Detroit.
Osgood - 14 playoff shutouts with Detroit, 1 with StL/NYI.

CuJo - 16 career playoff shutouts, just 1 in the final two rounds...

 

[Canadiens1958]

When I was a kid I was always most impressed by Sawchuk being the all-time shut-out leader by a mile. Recently I recognized that shutouts are virtually an "aesthetic-only" stat. However, during his peak he was perhaps the most dominant goalie of all time.

Cannot lose when the opposition is shut-out. True across all eras.

Give up 1 or more goals and a loss goes from probable to likely.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Cannot lose when the opposition is shut-out. True across all eras.

Give up 1 or more goals and a loss goes from probable to likely.

Give up one goal you should still win. Give up two goals you really should still win or get a point. Give up three... then it gets iffy.

...and at the end of the day it's still largely a team stat.

Don't get me wrong, I've always been a fan of the shutout (getting added points in my hockey pools for a shutout has also increased its popularity for me throughout the years). I just think that giving up just one or two goals a game throughout a large sample of games is better than getting a half dozen shutouts and then letting in large chunks of goals in other games.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Sure, they're also influenced by team effects...proper talent evaluation still applies...

Hasek - Chi/Buf career - 5 playoff shutouts. Had 6 in the 2002 run alone with Detroit.
Osgood - 14 playoff shutouts with Detroit, 1 with StL/NYI.

CuJo - 16 career playoff shutouts, just 1 in the final two rounds...

One of the most striking era-influenced breakdowns I’ve seen is Roy’s 5/18 split from Montreal to Colorado - meaning that he would have broken the record (was it Benedict at 15?) from just his first 7 years in Colorado.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I just think that giving up just one or two goals a game throughout a large sample of games is better than getting a half dozen shutouts and then letting in large chunks of goals in other games.

I can see that. But in a series, I’ll take the goaltender with three 7 GA games and 4 SOs. Bring that sweet 3.00 GAA to the next round!

 

[Michael Farkas]

One of the most striking era-influenced breakdowns I’ve seen is Roy’s 5/18 split from Montreal to Colorado - meaning that he would have broken the record (was it Benedict at 15?) from just his first 7 years in Colorado.

I guess we can wonder forever whether or not it's era-induced scoring constipation as well...he moved on from Montreal right around the time the league's sphincters tightened up...

That said, he was just pretty damn good for the loosey goosey time...

Playoff shutouts from 1980 to 1993:
1. Roy - 5
2. Everyone else - less



Really: Barrasso, Hanlon, Penney (!), Sauve, Smith 4
Fuhr, Lindbergh, Moog, Ranford 3

Penney's 4 in 27 GP in Montreal speaks to their defensive conscience I suppose...Lindbergh's 3 in 23 (which really all came in the 18 game run to the '85 Final) are also interesting, who knows what might have happened there, of course...

 

[sr edler]

Did he make most voters lists?

He didn't make ehhedler's list because he's only been in one playoffs so far (where he got Kesler'd) and in one best-on-best tournament (on a gimmick team). Projectively (is that a word?) he would make my list but we've been told not to project but only to appear in a project.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Without looking how many of the all time great F's do you think needed the power play more than Ovechkin at 39%?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Without looking how many of the all time great F's do you think needed the power play more than Ovechkin at 39%?

I'd guess Lemieux is probably pretty close

Edit: Looking at HR

Lemieux - 1723 Points Total
PPP - 698

40.5%

 

[ImporterExporter]

I'd guess Lemieux is probably pretty close

He's one. I'm still compiling data on the 06 guys but there are a couple so far.

 

[ResilientBeast]

He's one. I'm still compiling data on the 06 guys but there are a couple so far.

Without putting words into your mouth, I don't think trying to drag Ovechkin down because of his effectiveness as a PP trigger man is fair.

Also at his peak Ovechkin really didn't rely on the PP as much. When he won 2 of his harts he led the league in ES goals 3 consecutive times.

Edit: Malkin is hovering around 38% as well

 

[ImporterExporter]

Without putting words into your mouth, I don't think trying to drag Ovechkin down because of his effectiveness as a PP trigger man is fair.

Also at his peak Ovechkin really didn't rely on the PP as much. When he won 2 of his harts he led the league in ES goals 3 consecutive times.

Edit: Malkin is hovering around 38% as well

Oh, I'm not at all, just to be clear. I'm bored and wanted to do some data crunching. If anything I'd love to see a study done on special teams specifically as it pertains to individual production, especially now that nhl.com is releasing so much new information.

Most of the big guns in today's game are above 34-35% whereas somebody like Guy Lafleur was at 30.8%....hence why I'm interested in diving further into the fine print in regards to special teams.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Bobby Hull scored 27.7% of his points on the PP. Much lower than I expected to be honest.