Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (Revenge of Michael Myers)

[quoipourquoi]

not including goaltenders

*takes a drink*

I'm including goaltenders

*spits drink back into the glass*

 

[ImporterExporter]

In the 40s. But then again, I might be laboring under a disadvantage.

I watched a lot of his playoff hockey.

Where do you have Bobby?

Interested to hear what he did/didn't do in the playoffs that led you to place him lower than most.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Hayley Wickenheiser.

Wish someone would have mentioned her name in the prelim discussion, I would have seriously considered adding her. And I call myself a feminist.

 

[The Macho King]

*takes a drink*



*spits drink back into the glass*

I didn't mean I wasn't including goalies at all - just that I'm more critical of skaters in the DPE than I am of goalies.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I was just calling her out as a name I did not expect, like the other 3 I named

 

[quoipourquoi]

Hayley Wickenheiser.

Wish someone would have mentioned her name in the prelim discussion, I would have seriously considered adding her. And I call myself a feminist.

I think true feminism would be not including her because someone like Ryan Geltzlaf is factually a better hockey player. It’s my appropriately-called-out tokenism that resulted in probably a poor pick.

I made worse ones though. You’ll all see!

 

[Sentinel]

Internationally Hasek is not at the Seth Martin, Jack McCartan, Willard Ikola, Nikolai Puchkov level. In the 1980s he had identifiable difficulties.

The difficulty is called "age." Hasek was quite awesome in the 80s. Was consistently the thorn in the Soviet side.

And no, he is not on their level. He is higher. Having beaten the best of the best in the world.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Which difficulties are you talking about? The people who actually followed European hockey closely during the 80's certainly valued Hašek very highly as evident by him having arguably the 5th strongest Izvestia golden stick voting record of all players behind only Makarov, Tretiak, Fetisov and Krutov.

Izvestia trumps WHC, Olympics andthe Canada Cup?

Stay tuned for Round 2.

 

[Canadiens1958]

It doesn't help that the rather vocal (and growing) minority are trying to legislate most violence out of a violent sport. I'm all for banning idiots like Tom Wilson but over time (football is in even greater danger) hockey will collapse if you take away all fighting and most checking. And there are influential people who want that. I just don't think the average person (Canada or elsewhere) has the same outlook.




How many women are coaching advanced pre teen boys hockey? I honestly don't know. It would be interesting to see how much crossever there is now compared to say 10, 20, 50 years ago.

Really I could care less that somebody threw Hayley's name up there. She had an amazing career and surely influenced many young girls to get into a sport that may not have been at the top of their to do lists as youngsters. Granted Wickenheiser would probably never score a point in the NHL, or survive many of the hits that occur but I'd rather not go down that rabbit hole haha.

Exponential growth during the last 20 years especially at the school level.

 

[Beau Knows]

I think true feminism would be not including her because someone like Ryan Geltzlaf is factually a better hockey player. It’s my appropriately-called-out tokenism that resulted in probably a poor pick.

I made worse ones though. You’ll all see!

It was an interesting thought that's for sure.

But I agree with you here, I think it would be almost impossible to figure out how to compare her to the men. She's probably the greatest women's player ever, and so slotting her at say 120th place would almost seem like an insult in a way.

 

[Batis]

Izvestia trumps WHC, Olympics andthe Canada Cup?

Stay tuned for Round 2.

It seems like you are mistaking the Izvestia golden stick voting for the Izvestia Trophy tournament. The Izvestia golden stick voting was an annual poll conducted between 78/79 and 88/89 to determine the top players in Europe.

Edit. That voting had many somewhat strange results that are difficult to explain but that Hašek managed to recieve such strong voting support at such an early age is still very impressive.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I think true feminism would be not including her because someone like Ryan Geltzlaf is factually a better hockey player. It’s my appropriately-called-out tokenism that resulted in probably a poor pick.

I made worse ones though. You’ll all see!

Getzlaf wasn't heads and shoulders above the competition he played against, The Wick was.

 

[sr edler]

I listed Loob (@ 120) because he was a perpetual winner with an all-round skillset and high upside that always made his teams and teammates better. He made the SC finals twice with the Flames in 86 and 89 (in 86 without being an all-star team, the year after Mr. Magic Man disappeared for good), and after he left the team it couldn't battle itself out of the first round for over a decade. He also had an excellent international record (as well as domestic) and great leadership qualities. I've heard/read both Nieuwendyk and Fleury praise him and both Peter Forsberg and Markus Näslund idolized him.

 

[MXD]

Someone who likes trail blazers for the sake of trail blazering would probably really love the idea of ranking Wickenheiser. I mean, she might even be a strictly better player than a few (mostly old-timers) that got on the list if you take what she has and is now, compared to what they were then.

 

[seventieslord]

Fun fact: Roy's worst and 3rd worst regular seasons in terms of save % (out of his 18 seasons) were two of his Conn Smythe postseasons!

(And his 2nd worst save % season he co-won the Jennings with a worse save % than teammate Hayward.)

the above is only relevant if you are referring to worst as in worst compared to the league average

 

[seventieslord]

Controversial question because I can:

I have Crosby and Ovi back to back with Crosby ahead. If I genuinely think Ovi will end up the better player by my definition that shaped my list, would it be reasonable to vote in favour of Ovi once we get to that part? Sure, I wouldn’t base the voting because of something 5-6 years ahead, otherwise McDavid would make the list but I think Ovi can pass Crosby this year.

Where do you even wanna draw the line as far as foresight goes? Not even think about it? I guess it would be more reasonable to consider yourself convinced by whatever arguments others make to make a change from your original list.

I'm genuinely curious, what is your definition that you've drawn up that makes Crosby the better player right now, but inevitably not the better player by the time their careers are over? Do you have some sort of numerical formula that has some criteria that Ovechkin is likely to hit that Crosby is not?

 

[Canadiens1958]

It seems like you are mistaking the Izvestia golden stick voting for the Izvestia Trophy tournament. The Izvestia golden stick voting was an annual poll conducted between 78/79 and 88/89 to determine the top players in Europe.

Edit. That voting had many somewhat strange results that are difficult to explain but that Hašek managed to recieve such strong voting support at such an early age is still very impressive.

My bad.

 

[seventieslord]

I had him on my preliminary draft but he got kicked off for having too few elite years. I'm a little surprised no one listed Punch Broadbent or Jack Darragh. I thought about listing Darragh myself (because of his playoffs).

These were top 120 list, not top 300...

 

[sr edler]

These were top 120 list, not top 300...

Yes, I took another quick look at Broadbent and his individual resume looks a bit hollow. I remember TDMM praising both him and Keats a lot though, so I thought perhaps he will list one of them (or both). But he didn't, and so didn't I.

 

[MXD]

Yes, I took another quick look at Broadbent and his individual resume looks a bit hollow. I remember TDMM praising both him and Keats a lot though, so I thought perhaps he will list one of them (or both). But he didn't, and so didn't I.

I'm pretty sure a lot of users heaped praise on Glenn Anderson at various points, too.

 

[sr edler]

I'm pretty sure a lot of users heaped praise on Glenn Anderson at various points, too.

I've praised lesser players than that.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Did nobody rank Carl Brewer? Slightly surprised.

 

[Sentinel]

Getzlaf wasn't heads and shoulders above the competition he played against, The Wick was.

Now imagine Getzlaf on the same ice as Wickenheiser. How long do you think she would last?

 

[MXD]

Now imagine Getzlaf on the same ice as Wickenheiser. How long do you think she would last?

It's actually much more fun, and interesting, and relevant, to imagine Wickenheiser on the ice with Newsy Lalonde, but that's just me.

 

[BenchBrawl]

It's actually much more fun, and interesting, and relevant, to imagine Wickenheiser on the ice with Newsy Lalonde, but that's just me.

Lalonde would smash her face within the shift and she'll be out of action.