Top 10 General Managers?

[Zetterberg4Captain]

So which GM do you count then that has shown sustained success without top 10 picks? Interesting that a Detroit fan says this.

I'd say Holland but resigning Clearly...yikes. Just a horrible hockey move.

I simply prefer GM's or franchises that havent had to dip into the league charity bowl for their success over and over

I simply respect that more

 

[islesfan3913]

Sure there is reason to believe it was Wang's idea, but Wang didn't go over Snow's head to get it done. Snow is the man who inked it.

No he wasn't. Snow was barely the GM then

 

[David Castillo]

I think we all understand that. But the point is that what you said above doesn't make Nill is a good/great GM. He hasn't proven enough...it's too early to say either way....as you just mentioned he's building the team for the long term....not to compete right now. So let's see how the team looks when his goal comes to (or doesn't come to) fruition. No?

When he shows he can (or can't) build a good team long term (like you said his goal is) then and only then will he be considered one of the best in the NHL. Until then? Who the heck knows.

I agree with your general sentiment but not with the overbearing skepticism.

Dallas wasn't some sort of franchise with a bunch of neat prospects, and on the way up. They were impressively mediocre. The Seguin trade single handedly game them the gamebreaking prospect they never had. On top of that Nill had the sense to keep Benn at LW where he's been more effective instead of trying to shoehorn him at center like everyone before him.

And he has yet to give up our serious prospects. He's traded for Spezza and Seguin and we still have all of our top 10 prospects at each position, for the most part. The Eakin, Roussel, and Garbutt contracts have been smooth as well; all are guys some GM's might have overpaid for their "grit".

He hasn't been perfect. And it's too early to call him top 10, but he's displayed some clear intelligence thus far, and I'm happy Dallas has him.

 

[aisle18]

I simply prefer GM's or franchises that havent had to dip into the league charity bowl for their success over and over

I simply respect that more

What charity bowl? It's a draft, it has a lottery, it's done this way in every sport.

How come all terrible teams don't end up turning into legit contenders after a few years in the "charity bowl"?

There is some crazy reaching going on in this thread. I'm not claiming Snow is a top 10 GM but no need to completely discredit the job he has done. I'd take him over at least half the other GM's in the league.

Why not give him credit for guys like Martin, Cizikas, Hamonic, Lee, Nelson, DeHaan? Ya know, those non-charity bowl contributors.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

What charity bowl? It's a draft, it has a lottery, it's done this way in every sport.

How come all terrible teams don't end up turning into legit contenders after a few years in the "charity bowl"?

There is some crazy reaching going on in this thread. I'm not claiming Snow is a top 10 GM but no need to completely discredit the job he has done. I'd take him over at least half the other GM's in the league.

Why not give him credit for guys like Martin, Cizikas, Hamonic, Lee, Nelson, DeHaan? Ya know, those non-charity bowl contributors.

did i even once name any specific GM's?

the answer your're looking for is no.

I simply said GM's who's success is in large part due to repeated lottery picks should be bumped down, just like someone who wins the state lottery calling themselves savvy businessmen

its not an insult because its a fact

i respect a GM who has been in their position for a long time, brought long term success and stability to their franchise and done so without repeatedly being given handouts to which their success is almost exclusively based on.

I respect Pollie and Uncle Lou

 

[Frank Drebin]

The fact that Sather isn't being mentioned more is absurd. I don't even want to waste my time laying out a case for him, if you're a hockey fan you should be aware of who the New York Rangers are already. And they've most certainly been guided very well by Slats for a while now.

Sather has signed the three worst UFA contracts since the salary cap came in though. Granted he turned Gomez to gold but B.Richards and Redden were huge mistakes.

I think he gets a lot of pressure to land the big fishes in the big Apple.

 

[Voight]

Sather has signed the three worst UFA contracts since the salary cap came in though. Granted he turned Gomez to gold but B.Richards and Redden were huge mistakes.

I think he gets a lot of pressure to land the big fishes in the big Apple.

That should be a four, See Drury, Chris.

Five years, $35.25 million baby.

 

[Frank Drebin]

That should be a four, See Drury, Chris.

Five years, $35.25 million baby.

Completely forgot about Drury.

 

[Brooklanders*]

any GM who's success is based on Gary Bettman handing them franchise level superstars losses a significant part of his credibility for "best GM"

that is the EXACT SAME as winning the state lottery and calling yourself a great businessman

so bump down the GM's who's teams have had top 5 picks in the last 7 years to which their respective organizations success is largely or almost exclusively dependent on

There's more to being a good GM than drafting players.

 

[The Head Crusher]

Any list here is incomplete unless "Craigs on it"

 

[Voight]

Completely forgot about Drury.

People often do since Gomez was turned into a franchise defenseman, Richards was bought out less than a year ago, Reddens deal is arguably the worst in hard-cap sports history and easily the worst in NHL history.

 

[Brooklanders*]

Garth Snow is a classic example of even a blind squirrel finding an acorn once in a while. Remember, this guy literally gave away a 20 year old former top 5 pick a few years ago.

Yeah like Snow had a choice?

Not too mention us fans are very happy with Cal Clutterbuck and his role on this first place team.

Right now Kulemin is our third line RW.
Guy actually plays a two way game.

Ninos +/- is god awful. Watch him play. He's a scorer and that's all he tries to do and hes been stuck on 14 for quite awhile now. 21 points is pretty replaceable.
Same with Vanek who's a floater and awful on defense.
The same reason Garth got rid of Moulson and PA.

And people think Lombardi's some genius.
Didn't he basically give us a top four overall pick away for free and traded away a goalie drafted 11th overall for a fourth liner.

 

[IdealisticSniper]

I simply prefer GM's or franchises that havent had to dip into the league charity bowl for their success over and over

I simply respect that more

Please. If Detroit didn't luck into their franchise players they wouldn't be near as good as they have been the past two decades. And yes no matter how good your scouting staff is luck is a huge part of getting a good player, let alone franchise player, in the later rounds of the draft.

Stop beating around the bush and just say what you mean. You're pumping Hollands tires in a passive way.

 

[obey86]

There's more to being a good GM than drafting players.

You mean like sustained success/competitiveness?

 

[uncommonsense52]

I simply prefer GM's or franchises that havent had to dip into the league charity bowl for their success over and over

I simply respect that more

These are strong words coming from a Detroit fan.

Look, I'm not saying it's applicable today. But from the mid 90's to probably the mid 00's, the Red Wings were the media darlings and the league's franchise. If games were called evenly, you'd have some Cups, you had great teams... but as many? Nah.

I remember a game in 2002 where the Refs so clearly threw the game to the Red Wings when they were facing the Blues that I'm still not over it.

Shanahan slashed Tyson Nash's face open bad, and intentionally. He got no penalty. Nash came back stitched up, and the future director of player safety gave Nash a face washing in the stitches, ripping them out and doing some interesting cosmetic work on Nash's face.

Besides that, their team was taking plenty of runs at the Blues all game and getting away with it, meanwhile, every single god damn thing that could be called on the Blues was. Really really weak calls.

And then to top it off, after a big brawl at the end of the game, Detroit's Assistant Coach, I don't remember his name, throws a bench onto the ice in some sort of adolescent rage, and yet it was the Blues' head coach Joel Quenneville that got fined.

There've been a lot of tilted ice games in Detroit's favor in that time from 95-05, but that game sticks out in my mind as one of the most biased displays of officiating I've seen in any sport in any time.

The league is sometimes an old boy's club, and the Red Wings are definitely in that club.

Hell, just rewind to 2009 I think, where Ian Cole puts a debatable headshot hit to a Detroit player and gets 3 games, but Pavel Datsyuk lays a super obvious and intentional headshot on Barret Jackman and gets nothing.

Yeah bro, I respect teams that don't dip their hand into the league's charity bowl too. Whatever.

Don't believe me? Ask Teemu Selanne:

"This is the building [Joe Lewis Arena], seriously, I never have seen any other building ... '' Selanne said. "I'd like to see the stats if it's ever happened that the visiting team's going to get more power plays than home team. It is a joke. As long as I have played here, it's always happened. You almost know. They get at least three power plays every first period. Like 50-50 calls are going to go in their favor. It's not a secret for anybody. Plus there's a young referee (Frederick L'Ecuyer) who's pumped to do the games here. The calls are going to go in their favor."

 

[Kale Hulls]

I remember when Snow was the laughing stock, but he's actually been pretty good the past few years.

 

[Brooklanders*]

I remember when Snow was the laughing stock, but he's actually been pretty good the past few years.

Snow took over a team with no talent eight years ago and built it mainly through the draft and waivers.

Players who were free agents didn't want to come to Long Island.
No one wants to play for a low market team with no talent in an old arena.
Wang couldn't afford to pay top free agents as a result.


Snow had to overpay marginal free agents just to reach the cap floor.


His job is a lot harder than teams flush with cash.
True Islander fans always supported his plan.
Arizona and Florida fans understand what obstacles need be overcome.

 

[Quicklime]

Snow took over a team with no talent eight years ago and built it mainly through the draft and waivers.

Players who were free agents didn't want to come to Long Island.
No one wants to play for a low market team with no talent in an old arena.
Wang couldn't afford to pay top free agents as a result.


Snow had to overpay marginal free agents just to reach the cap floor.


His job is a lot harder than teams flush with cash.
True Islander fans always supported his plan.
Arizona and Florida fans understand what obstacles need be overcome.

Plus, he had the balls not to relent on the plan. He wanted high hockey IQ, character players.

"Nina" was an attempt to add a power forward, and Wang's cap concerned botched his development as much as the Swiss Miss botched his own value, along with his agent. Garth (correctly) gauged that the team could benefit by having a glue player with rapport with JT.

Niño can succeed or rot in MIN; the only people obsessed with that trade on our board are the ones trying to denigrate the job Snow's done. And that's a dwindling number these days.

 

[Brooklanders*]

Plus, he had the balls not to relent on the plan. He wanted high hockey IQ, character players.

"Nina" was an attempt to add a power forward, and Wang's cap concerned botched his development as much as the Swiss Miss botched his own value, along with his agent. Garth (correctly) gauged that the team could benefit by having a glue player with rapport with JT.

Niño can succeed or rot in MIN; the only people obsessed with that trade on our board are the ones trying to denigrate the job Snow's done. And that's a dwindling number these days.

This post is so true.

 

[Voight]

Please. If Detroit didn't luck into their franchise players they wouldn't be near as good as they have been the past two decades. And yes no matter how good your scouting staff is luck is a huge part of getting a good player, let alone franchise player, in the later rounds of the draft.

Stop beating around the bush and just say what you mean. You're pumping Hollands tires in a passive way.

ZB4C seems to think that it was all scouting genius that picked Zetter, Dats, Lidstrom, Franzen etc in the later rounds. Had nothing to do with luck apparently.

 

[oconnor9sean]

Good points. In 3 years Spezza will be 34 and making $7.5 million. That's the puzzling thing, giving up future assets and a big contract to a player that doesn't really fit with the time-frame of the core.

Spezza's style of play makes it much more likely that his body can handle it at that age. Hossa is older than Kane/Toews and it's worked out for the Hawks. Not every core player needs to be the same exact age.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

ZB4C seems to think that it was all scouting genius that picked Zetter, Dats, Lidstrom, Franzen etc in the later rounds. Had nothing to do with luck apparently.

I am not sure I would say every single good player Detroit has had the past 25 years is solely do to luck my man because if that's the case same applies to every pick made by every single GM would it not?

yes being a GM involves more than drafting but trading is a much less important than continual franchise success and yes that is why i like GM's like holland, pollie, uncle lou more than some others

 

[Frank Drebin]

I am not sure I would say every single good player Detroit has had the past 25 years is solely do to luck my man because if that's the case same applies to every pick made by every single GM would it not?

yes being a GM involves more than drafting but trading is a much less important than continual franchise success and yes that is why i like GM's like holland, pollie, uncle lou more than some others

Detroit was miles ahead of everyone else when it came to euro/Russian scouting in the 90's. It wasn't luck per se, but I would be very surprised to see a Datsyuk/Zetterberg talent slip to the late rounds again, especially to the same team.

The young players in Detroit's system are very good, but every team has good young players.

 

[Disgraced Cosmonaut]

... Snow did sign DP to that 15 year contract. That's why people think he did, because he most certainly did.

Snow hasn't been a good GM, he's just been allowed to keep the team a bottom feeder so long that by almost just a numbers game alone it's finally starting to turn around. The moves he made this past off-season weren't so much a part of any long term plan, they were just opportunistic moves taking advantage of other teams' cap problems. You get some credit for taking advantage of that sort of situation, but to base a long term plan around having other teams finding themselves in a bad place isn't a great way to run an organization.

No one expects the outsiders to read local papers, but even national media published that Charles Wang himself authored and mandated the DP deal (as well as the Yashin deal years before). Wang thought he knew the business side of hockey, but not the hockey side of hockey. Turns out, he just doesn't know hockey - period. When his hands came off and he let Snow operate with more than a SUB-cap-floor payroll, Garth has done reasonably well.

What Garth deserves a little credit for is his ability to set the table over the lean years. He did that by (a) snagging some nice players via the draft and trades on draft day and (b) being opportunistic in his collection of castoffs, whether as FA or via trade. To wit: Moulson, Grabner, PAP and Hickey were very good pick ups under the circumstances. The opportunistic trades for Leddy and Boychuk and the trade of the 4th to snag Halak's rights, were downright wonderful.

Garth has had some real big issues to, however. Failing to upgrade the goalie situation prior to last year, and offloading Moulson (and the 1st rounder this year) when the team was .500 to get a guy that he had a snowball's chance in hell at signing (because everyone knew he was going to his adopted US home), were some major lowlights. I don't think Nino for Clutter is the problem with Nino, btw. The problem was (a) misusing Nino in the NHL and (b) drafting someone with a meathead for an agent, but thems the breaks. That won't happen again too soon.

Garth is no Dean Lombardi, who's #1, AINEC, imho, Dean's work for 2 organizations is enviable.

 

[Islanderfan17]

Garth Snow is interesting. The guy has been a disaster trade wise but his scouts (or maybe himself) have drafted very well. That alone has made the Islanders into a really good team with a young core. Is it Garth Snow? Or is it the scouts?.

Montreal has employed Trevor Timmins for many years now, he's been around when Gainey and Gauthier were GMs of this team. Both Gainey and Gauthier were a disaster yet Timmins drafted very well.

I'm not willing to give Snow credit for their draft picks, which in my opinion still makes him one of the worst GMs in the league. Expect another terrible trade from him soon.

As for best GMs. It's hard to make a top 5 list in order, but I feel we have to include Yzerman (TB) , Lombardi (LA) , Poile (NSH), Holland (DET) and Nill (DAL). Outside contenders are Bergevin (MTL), Bowman (CHI) and Armstrong (STL)

Garth definitely has his hand in a lot of, if not all, of the draft picks. I'm pretty sure he was the one that was big on the likes of Nelson and a couple of others, he has an eye for diamonds in the rough it seems. Not to mention he is probably the best waiver wire pick upper of all time, landing the likes of Moulson, Nabakov, Grabner on waivers (Moulson and Grabner specifically were awesome pick ups). He made some dumb trade decisions for sure, but I can see his point of view with some of them. Vanek was a high risk high reward trade where Garth definitely wanted to improve the team, but unfortunately the high risk part of it won. I personally was a fan of the Nino-Clutterbuck trade because of Nino's poor display of attitude, he didn't fit in with this core in that regard at all, but Clutterbuck has fit in so perfectly to this team and is a big game player.

The most underrated aspect of Snows tenure is his ability to sign players to amazing hometown discounts and retain them for long periods of time as well. The guy really hasn't had a questionable contract in a long time, at least not any major ones, and he's gotten guys like Tavares (best contract in the league), Okposo, Nielsen, Grabner etc. etc. to all sign awesome value contracts. Baileys contract is still up in the air as far as being good or not, but he has grown so much as a player the past couple of seasons that it's starting to look like a good signing.

Also, we can't ignore the off season he had this past summer, the only word that can describe it is "clutch". This team needed D-men REALLY bad, it was our biggest question mark going into this season (at least in my opinion, our D was horrid last year and it was going to be just as bad this year without Leddy/Boychuck), and he got the job done by snagging two very underrated D-men who could anchor this group and who have Cup experience. Throw in Halak, another desperate need we had, and this off season was probably one of the best by any GM in recent memory.

If I had to rate Snow all things considered at this point, I'd give him a B+. I never thought things were really his fault, it was always clear that Wang had a stranglehold on this teams wallet and that the Barclays deal has opened it back up again for Snow. The only thing I've ever really been pissed at Snow for was not firing Cappy in the past, but even that is turning out OKAY at the moment (though I still feel uncomfortable about Cappy).