Top 10 Best NHL Players of All Time

[VistamarCroissants]

More or less this, considering the NHL careers only:


1, ORR
T2, GRETZKY, LEMIEUX
4, HOWE
5, SAWCHUK
6, OVECHKIN
7, PLANTE
T8, JAGR, LAFLEUR
T10, BELIVEAU, M. RICHARD

 

[VanIslander]

1, ORR
T2, GRETZKY, LEMIEUX
4, HOWE
5, SAWCHUK
6, OVECHKIN
7, PLANTE
T8, JAGR, LAFLEUR
T10, BELIVEAU, M. RICHARD

How could anyone put Sawchuk & Plante over Hasek & Roy, AND have OV 6th...?

Please explain.

 

[DitchMarner]

I think intuitively having five players from one era and only about two from another era on a top ten or 20 list seems unfair and flawed, but when covering more than 100 years of history, there shouldn't be a realistic expectation of uniform distribution throughout all decades and eras. That is to say, variance can be expected in the number of top ten players produced by eras.

Because the game of hockey in general has grown so much over the last 100 years and has become much bigger professionally over that time, it seems appropriate for there to be substantially more top 50/top 100 players from the last 50 or so years compared to before. I don't think the NHL's Top 100 List was great, but I do think the League had the right idea in terms of having twice as many post-expansion players listed as pre-expansion players.

However, when it comes to a top ten or top 20 list, I'm not sure there should necessarily be such a sharp skew in terms of representation toward the last half century.

On a top (as opposed to "best") ten or so list, my primary basis for ranking is transcendence (how much players dominated the sport in comparison to their contemporaries), with consideration and adjustment for varying levels of competition.


My top ten would be something like:

1. Wayne Gretzky (with only Howe having an argument for being ahead).

2. Gordie Howe

3. Bobby Orr

4. Mario Lemieux


5. Connor McDavid/Sidney Crosby. Each player has a lengthy reign as the best in the NHL. I think McDavid has been more dominant during his time as the best player than Crosby was during his. His best seasons are better and he's won more individually. Crosby has the longer prime and still has an argument over him in terms of career value, but that should erode soon.

7. Dominik Hasek/Jaromir Jagr. The two Czechs were the dominant players of the tough Dead Puck Era. Jagr made an impact across multiple eras.

9. Jean Beliveau

10. Bobby Hull/Maurice Richard/Alex Ovechkin. Three great goal scorers with star power. Richard has the best playoff career of the three while the other two have him beat in the regular season in my opinion.


Honorable mentions:

Patrick Roy
Ray Bourque
Nicklas Lidstrom
Eddie Shore

 

[Vilica]

The best quibble I have with your extrapolation is the 1960 ranking of Richard over Howe.

At the time of Richard's retirement, he had 1 Hart, 5 Rockets, 966 points in 978 games, and 8 Cups.

At that point in Howe's career, he had 5 Harts, 4 Rockets, 5 Ross, and 977 points in 916 games, to go with 4 Cups.

They overlapped for 15 years (Howe 18-31, Richard 25-38), playing the same position, and Howe won the AS battle 7-6. I agree with you that Richard's reputation exceeds his accomplishments, but I don't think the HoH voters of 1960 would overlook 4 extra Harts in favor of 3 extra Cups (removing Howe's 1st and Richard's last 2 as ancillary ones).

To contribute to the main focus of the thread, my top 10:
1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Orr
4. Lemieux
5. Bourque
6. Beliveau
7. Roy
8. Crosby
9. Hasek
10. McDavid

In my spicier moments, I swap Orr and Bourque. If you wrote Bourque's name 1st on your Norris ballot the first 17 years of his career, you wouldn't be wrong. He was the best defensemen in the league, and while Orr peaked higher, he has a decade longer run. It looked like Crosby had a good shot at unseating Beliveau on the list, but Crosby really hasn't done anything legacy-wise since turning 30, whereas Beliveau won both a Hart and a Smythe.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The best quibble I have with your extrapolation is the 1960 ranking of Richard over Howe.

At the time of Richard's retirement, he had 1 Hart, 5 Rockets, 966 points in 978 games, and 8 Cups.

At that point in Howe's career, he had 5 Harts, 4 Rockets, 5 Ross, and 977 points in 916 games, to go with 4 Cups.

They overlapped for 15 years (Howe 18-31, Richard 25-38), playing the same position, and Howe won the AS battle 7-6. I agree with you that Richard's reputation exceeds his accomplishments, but I don't think the HoH voters of 1960 would overlook 4 extra Harts in favor of 3 extra Cups (removing Howe's 1st and Richard's last 2 as ancillary ones).

To contribute to the main focus of the thread, my top 10:
1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Orr
4. Lemieux
5. Bourque
6. Beliveau
7. Roy
8. Crosby
9. Hasek
10. McDavid

In my spicier moments, I swap Orr and Bourque. If you wrote Bourque's name 1st on your Norris ballot the first 17 years of his career, you wouldn't be wrong. He was the best defensemen in the league, and while Orr peaked higher, he has a decade longer run. It looked like Crosby had a good shot at unseating Beliveau on the list, but Crosby really hasn't done anything legacy-wise since turning 30, whereas Beliveau won both a Hart and a Smythe.

Swap Béliveau with Bobby Hull for starters.

 

[jigglysquishy]

The best quibble I have with your extrapolation is the 1960 ranking of Richard over Howe.

At the time of Richard's retirement, he had 1 Hart, 5 Rockets, 966 points in 978 games, and 8 Cups.

At that point in Howe's career, he had 5 Harts, 4 Rockets, 5 Ross, and 977 points in 916 games, to go with 4 Cups.

They overlapped for 15 years (Howe 18-31, Richard 25-38), playing the same position, and Howe won the AS battle 7-6. I agree with you that Richard's reputation exceeds his accomplishments, but I don't think the HoH voters of 1960 would overlook 4 extra Harts in favor of 3 extra Cups (removing Howe's 1st and Richard's last 2 as ancillary ones).

It's clear going through contemporary reports that Richard was almost unanimously considered the best player ever in the 1958-1965 time frame. He's spoken of in near religious reverence. The only other examples that come close in hockey history are mid 70s Orr and late 90s Gretzky.

Was Howe the better all time player by 1960? Yes, absolutely. But that was very much not popular opinion.

 

[Vilica]

It's clear going through contemporary reports that Richard was almost unanimously considered the best player ever in the 1958-1965 time frame. He's spoken of in near religious reverence. The only other examples that come close in hockey history are mid 70s Orr and late 90s Gretzky.

Was Howe the better all time player by 1960? Yes, absolutely. But that was very much not popular opinion.

Sure it's not the popular opinion, but I would hope the voters in a hypothetical HoH board would not be swayed by a bunch of newspaper writers and realize that Howe was better than Richard already, given their respective careers. Actually, thinking on it a bit, given the normal voting processes, I wonder if Montreal fans might split their vote between Richard and Morenz, and Howe would benefit from that split vote to earn a plurality of the vote. I think it would depend on how many voter participants there were, and whether the split vote was Richard/Howe/Morenz (or vice versa) and not Richard/Morenz/Howe, as well as other players inserted into the top 3.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Sure it's not the popular opinion, but I would hope the voters in a hypothetical HoH board would not be swayed by a bunch of newspaper writers and realize that Howe was better than Richard already, given their respective careers. Actually, thinking on it a bit, given the normal voting processes, I wonder if Montreal fans might split their vote between Richard and Morenz, and Howe would benefit from that split vote to earn a plurality of the vote. I think it would depend on how many voter participants there were, and whether the split vote was Richard/Howe/Morenz (or vice versa) and not Richard/Morenz/Howe, as well as other players inserted into the top 3.

I think they got it right, Rocket had 5 more seasons under his belt, then once Gordie caught up and played more seasons, he went ahead.
Looks correct to me.

 

[pappyline]

Swap Béliveau with Bobby Hull for starters.

And then switch him with Bourque

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The best quibble I have with your extrapolation is the 1960 ranking of Richard over Howe.

At the time of Richard's retirement, he had 1 Hart, 5 Rockets, 966 points in 978 games, and 8 Cups.

At that point in Howe's career, he had 5 Harts, 4 Rockets, 5 Ross, and 977 points in 916 games, to go with 4 Cups.

They overlapped for 15 years (Howe 18-31, Richard 25-38), playing the same position, and Howe won the AS battle 7-6. I agree with you that Richard's reputation exceeds his accomplishments, but I don't think the HoH voters of 1960 would overlook 4 extra Harts in favor of 3 extra Cups (removing Howe's 1st and Richard's last 2 as ancillary ones).

To contribute to the main focus of the thread, my top 10:
1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Orr
4. Lemieux
5. Bourque
6. Beliveau
7. Roy
8. Crosby
9. Hasek
10. McDavid

In my spicier moments, I swap Orr and Bourque. If you wrote Bourque's name 1st on your Norris ballot the first 17 years of his career, you wouldn't be wrong. He was the best defensemen in the league, and while Orr peaked higher, he has a decade longer run. It looked like Crosby had a good shot at unseating Beliveau on the list, but Crosby really hasn't done anything legacy-wise since turning 30, whereas Beliveau won both a Hart and a Smythe.

Ray Bourque certainly isn't the 5th best player in NHL history.

 

[Pegi]

1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux
4. Howe
5. Jagr
6. Brodeur
7. Crosby
8. Ovechkin
9. Roy
10. Bourque

Based on statistics and records. Mcdavid will be there in the future.

 

[gary69]

It's clear going through contemporary reports that Richard was almost unanimously considered the best player ever in the 1958-1965 time frame. He's spoken of in near religious reverence. The only other examples that come close in hockey history are mid 70s Orr and late 90s Gretzky.

Was Howe the better all time player by 1960? Yes, absolutely. But that was very much not popular opinion.

Now this Richard-Howe situation is absolute interesting when thinking of the shaping the Alltime Top10.

Inspired by this I took a superficial look (i.e not reading any contemporary articles) on Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux entering the Top10 and eventually their current 3rd, 1st and 4th positions. These three players are relatively close (inside 20 years or so) when entering.

Orr:

By the time Orr came into league, G.Howe was pretty clearly 1st Alltime. So when did Orr become a top 10 player and when was he considered 2nd best Alltime? When he won the Art Ross, his 3rd Norris and 1st SC in 1970, was he already considered a TOP10 alltime player even though he only had 4 seasons under his belt?

If not, then surely after the 2nd SC in 1972, with 3 Harts, a second CS and two Norrises later, he was surely in TOP10. But how high? Maybe not generally accepted as 2nd best yet?

Obviously after 1975 when winning his 2nd Art Ross and 8th Norris + Canada Cup MVP, must have cemented his 2nd position behind Gordie Howe, considering how his career went after that.

So the interestng question remains, that between 1972 - 1975, he must have passed couple of players each year in All time list, moving from say 6th to 2nd?

Gretzky:

If Orr entered the Alltime Top 10 after his 4th season, surely the same must be said of Gretzky even if hadn't won the Cup yet by then. But he had 4 Harts and 3 Art Rosses, but where was he ranked at after 82/83 season? Without a Cup, likely not ahead of Orr yet, but who else were still consired to be ahead of him?

Then after 83/84 with the first SC and another Hart and Art Ross, does he go ahead of Orr or not?
After 84/85, with CS to add to his usual trophies won, and with well over 1000 pts, he surely must have been Alltime 2nd by then.

But when did he pass Gordie Howe? Surely during his time in Edmonton, maybe after 1987 with the third SC, second Canada Cup success, another Hart and Art Ross. Although it took until his time at LA to break Howe's goal scoring record.

Mario Lemieux:

Did he enter the Alltime Top 10 before Penguins won the SC's in the early 1990s? Maybe not, he had one Hart and two Art Rosses, but didn't have 1000 pts yet.

So he enters top10 after the Cups, but how high? He probaly gets the 4th spot after 95/96 season, with his 3rd Hart and 5th Art Ross. So between 1993 and 1996, two full great season propel him past several Top10 players.

 

[carjackmalone]

Don Cherry hated Lemieux his first few seasons kept calling him a floater

 

[VanIslander]

Don Cherry hated Lemieux his first few seasons kept calling him a floater

He also mocked Roy's name.

Ron was livid and on air - after many times - told Don bluntly to cut it out, a rare anger moment between them. And Don stopped mocking Roy. It helped that Roy was the Stanley Cup champion Conn Smythe winner.

 

[wetcoast]

i changed my top 10 instead of lindstrom #8 i put makar assuming his career stays on track

Look I love Makar but it's way too early for that, even with the start Makar has had this year.

 

[wetcoast]

Look the Big 4 are easy, although I'd have Mario in the 4,5,6 tier with Crosby and McDavid when it's all said and done as Mario didn't tilt the ice as much as the others in the "Big 4".

McDavid isn't there yet, for everyone, but really how long until he is a lock for top 10 all time?

After that there is probably a dozen guys vying for spots 7,8,9 and 10 and I'll leave goalies out because it's extremely hard to compare and contrast to position players and separate them over time but Hasek/Roy should probably be in the top 10

In no order Beliveau, Hull, Harvey, Ovi, Lidstrom, Bourque and Jagr probably have some of the strongest cases but there are arguments for Richard, Morenz, and my personal favorite longshot Potvin but he didn't age very well after age 27 really is Denis Potvin but he really isn't a legit top 10 of all time guy with his decline.

I also think that the 11-20 spots all time are more interesting and a couple of current players, if everything goes extremely well for them might crack into that zone....possibly and a lot has to go right for them and probably won't.

 

[Boxscore]

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Bobby Orr
4. Gordie Howe
5. Jaromir Jagr
6. Dominik Hasek
7. Jean Beliveau
8. Mark Messier
9. Connor McDavid
10. Sidney Crosby

 

[VistamarCroissants]

How could anyone put Sawchuk & Plante over Hasek & Roy, AND have OV 6th...?

Please explain.

With pleasure:

Ovechkin is the greatest goal scorer of all time. No question about it. If he breaks Gretzky’s record, he’s going straight into the top 5 players in history, easy. Nobody even comes close.

Sawchuk was an absolute legend, an iron man, a winner. Played through pain and struggled and yet excelled.

Plante was a total game changer. He revolutionized the way goalies play

Roy? He’s good, but a little overrated, had some embarrassing performances throughout his spectacular career.

Hasek was very talented but let’s be honest he’s like a weaker version of Vladislav Tretiak. Tretiak was the real deal, a total icon, best goalie ever in my humble opinion.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux
4. Howe
5. McDavid
6. Crosby
7. Jagr
8. Hasek
9. Ovechkin
10. Bobby Hull

 

[Daximus]

I think this changes for me quite often but if Ovi somehow pulls off a legendary season at age 39 to take the scoring title and the record it's likely going to end up..

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Bobby Orr
4. Gordie Howe
5. Alex Ovechkin
6. Sidney Crosby
7. Patrick Roy
8. Dominic Hasek
9. Jaromir Jagr
10. Connor McDavid

I think McDavid is likely to pass a few of these guys within the next 3-7 years or so and having him at 10 might seem a bit premature and I'm not going to say it isn't. Otherwise I'd likely have Crosby over Ovi currently and Bourque in the top 10 over McDavid.