Top 10 Best NHL Players of All Time

[VistamarCroissants]

More or less this, considering the NHL careers only:


1, ORR
T2, GRETZKY, LEMIEUX
4, HOWE
5, SAWCHUK
6, OVECHKIN
7, PLANTE
T8, JAGR, LAFLEUR
T10, BELIVEAU, M. RICHARD

 

[VanIslander]

1, ORR
T2, GRETZKY, LEMIEUX
4, HOWE
5, SAWCHUK
6, OVECHKIN
7, PLANTE
T8, JAGR, LAFLEUR
T10, BELIVEAU, M. RICHARD

How could anyone put Sawchuk & Plante over Hasek & Roy, AND have OV 6th...?

Please explain.

 

[DitchMarner]

I think intuitively having five players from one era and only about two from another era on a top ten or 20 list seems unfair and flawed, but when covering more than 100 years of history, there shouldn't be a realistic expectation of uniform distribution throughout all decades and eras. That is to say, variance can be expected in the number of top ten players produced by eras.

Because the game of hockey in general has grown so much over the last 100 years and has become much bigger professionally over that time, it seems appropriate for there to be substantially more top 50/top 100 players from the last 50 or so years compared to before. I don't think the NHL's Top 100 List was great, but I do think the League had the right idea in terms of having twice as many post-expansion players listed as pre-expansion players.

However, when it comes to a top ten or top 20 list, I'm not sure there should necessarily be such a sharp skew in terms of representation toward the last half century.

On a top (as opposed to "best") ten or so list, my primary basis for ranking is transcendence (how much players dominated the sport in comparison to their contemporaries), with consideration and adjustment for varying levels of competition.


My top ten would be something like:

1. Wayne Gretzky (with only Howe having an argument for being ahead).

2. Gordie Howe

3. Bobby Orr

4. Mario Lemieux


5. Connor McDavid/Sidney Crosby. Each player has a lengthy reign as the best in the NHL. I think McDavid has been more dominant during his time as the best player than Crosby was during his. His best seasons are better and he's won more individually. Crosby has the longer prime and still has an argument over him in terms of career value, but that should erode soon.

7. Dominik Hasek/Jaromir Jagr. The two Czechs were the dominant players of the tough Dead Puck Era. Jagr made an impact across multiple eras.

9. Jean Beliveau

10. Bobby Hull/Maurice Richard/Alex Ovechkin. Three great goal scorers with star power. Richard has the best playoff career of the three while the other two have him beat in the regular season in my opinion.


Honorable mentions:

Patrick Roy
Ray Bourque
Nicklas Lidstrom
Eddie Shore

 

[Vilica]

The best quibble I have with your extrapolation is the 1960 ranking of Richard over Howe.

At the time of Richard's retirement, he had 1 Hart, 5 Rockets, 966 points in 978 games, and 8 Cups.

At that point in Howe's career, he had 5 Harts, 4 Rockets, 5 Ross, and 977 points in 916 games, to go with 4 Cups.

They overlapped for 15 years (Howe 18-31, Richard 25-38), playing the same position, and Howe won the AS battle 7-6. I agree with you that Richard's reputation exceeds his accomplishments, but I don't think the HoH voters of 1960 would overlook 4 extra Harts in favor of 3 extra Cups (removing Howe's 1st and Richard's last 2 as ancillary ones).

To contribute to the main focus of the thread, my top 10:
1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Orr
4. Lemieux
5. Bourque
6. Beliveau
7. Roy
8. Crosby
9. Hasek
10. McDavid

In my spicier moments, I swap Orr and Bourque. If you wrote Bourque's name 1st on your Norris ballot the first 17 years of his career, you wouldn't be wrong. He was the best defensemen in the league, and while Orr peaked higher, he has a decade longer run. It looked like Crosby had a good shot at unseating Beliveau on the list, but Crosby really hasn't done anything legacy-wise since turning 30, whereas Beliveau won both a Hart and a Smythe.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The best quibble I have with your extrapolation is the 1960 ranking of Richard over Howe.

At the time of Richard's retirement, he had 1 Hart, 5 Rockets, 966 points in 978 games, and 8 Cups.

At that point in Howe's career, he had 5 Harts, 4 Rockets, 5 Ross, and 977 points in 916 games, to go with 4 Cups.

They overlapped for 15 years (Howe 18-31, Richard 25-38), playing the same position, and Howe won the AS battle 7-6. I agree with you that Richard's reputation exceeds his accomplishments, but I don't think the HoH voters of 1960 would overlook 4 extra Harts in favor of 3 extra Cups (removing Howe's 1st and Richard's last 2 as ancillary ones).

To contribute to the main focus of the thread, my top 10:
1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Orr
4. Lemieux
5. Bourque
6. Beliveau
7. Roy
8. Crosby
9. Hasek
10. McDavid

In my spicier moments, I swap Orr and Bourque. If you wrote Bourque's name 1st on your Norris ballot the first 17 years of his career, you wouldn't be wrong. He was the best defensemen in the league, and while Orr peaked higher, he has a decade longer run. It looked like Crosby had a good shot at unseating Beliveau on the list, but Crosby really hasn't done anything legacy-wise since turning 30, whereas Beliveau won both a Hart and a Smythe.

Swap Béliveau with Bobby Hull for starters.

 

[jigglysquishy]

The best quibble I have with your extrapolation is the 1960 ranking of Richard over Howe.

At the time of Richard's retirement, he had 1 Hart, 5 Rockets, 966 points in 978 games, and 8 Cups.

At that point in Howe's career, he had 5 Harts, 4 Rockets, 5 Ross, and 977 points in 916 games, to go with 4 Cups.

They overlapped for 15 years (Howe 18-31, Richard 25-38), playing the same position, and Howe won the AS battle 7-6. I agree with you that Richard's reputation exceeds his accomplishments, but I don't think the HoH voters of 1960 would overlook 4 extra Harts in favor of 3 extra Cups (removing Howe's 1st and Richard's last 2 as ancillary ones).

It's clear going through contemporary reports that Richard was almost unanimously considered the best player ever in the 1958-1965 time frame. He's spoken of in near religious reverence. The only other examples that come close in hockey history are mid 70s Orr and late 90s Gretzky.

Was Howe the better all time player by 1960? Yes, absolutely. But that was very much not popular opinion.

 

[Vilica]

It's clear going through contemporary reports that Richard was almost unanimously considered the best player ever in the 1958-1965 time frame. He's spoken of in near religious reverence. The only other examples that come close in hockey history are mid 70s Orr and late 90s Gretzky.

Was Howe the better all time player by 1960? Yes, absolutely. But that was very much not popular opinion.

Sure it's not the popular opinion, but I would hope the voters in a hypothetical HoH board would not be swayed by a bunch of newspaper writers and realize that Howe was better than Richard already, given their respective careers. Actually, thinking on it a bit, given the normal voting processes, I wonder if Montreal fans might split their vote between Richard and Morenz, and Howe would benefit from that split vote to earn a plurality of the vote. I think it would depend on how many voter participants there were, and whether the split vote was Richard/Howe/Morenz (or vice versa) and not Richard/Morenz/Howe, as well as other players inserted into the top 3.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Sure it's not the popular opinion, but I would hope the voters in a hypothetical HoH board would not be swayed by a bunch of newspaper writers and realize that Howe was better than Richard already, given their respective careers. Actually, thinking on it a bit, given the normal voting processes, I wonder if Montreal fans might split their vote between Richard and Morenz, and Howe would benefit from that split vote to earn a plurality of the vote. I think it would depend on how many voter participants there were, and whether the split vote was Richard/Howe/Morenz (or vice versa) and not Richard/Morenz/Howe, as well as other players inserted into the top 3.

I think they got it right, Rocket had 5 more seasons under his belt, then once Gordie caught up and played more seasons, he went ahead.
Looks correct to me.

 

[pappyline]

Swap Béliveau with Bobby Hull for starters.

And then switch him with Bourque