Top 10 Best NHL Players of All Time

The Panther

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Mar 25, 2014
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So you watched Hull at 37 on YouTube and didn’t think he tilted the ice.
No, that's not what I said.

I said after considering the history and reading up on it, I have slightly altered my (largely uninformed) opinion of years ago. You'll note that I said I'd still rank Hull in that #11-15 slot among all-time great players, so I'm not exactly calling him a bum. (Watchng him play one game didn't alter my opinion of him at all.)
From 57 -72 before he went to WHA, led the NHL in points by 93 and goals by a 140. He was just dominating.
I'm aware, which is why I list him among the greatest players of all time. I just don't think he's quite in the top-10.
 
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The Panther

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Mar 25, 2014
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Chelios was tremendous. He gets stereotyped as old, slow, and violent, but he was able to adapt in three different teams to be a top defenseman in the world. His longevity is bonkers too, with elite level play across 20 years.

He could bring the offense too, finishing third in points on a very strong 1989 Habs. But when he was expected to stay back and shutdown (Red Wings) he did so.
I liked Chelios and he's certainly up there with the greats. I do think he gets a little (not a lot) more love than he probably deserves on this particular forum (see also: Patrick Roy). Slight chinks in his armor are that he wasn't always in great position on the ice defensively (he roamed a lot, let's say) and even more so -- at least in his salad days -- he took A LOT of penalties, many of which hurt his team. Some of this is just typical of his era, etc., but sometimes it was overkill and didn't help his club, I'd say. But I still love him.

While I would also rank Chelios ahead of Leetch, the difference isn't as big as (again) this particular forum thinks it is. When each player was at his best, I think they were quite even. Leetch was certainly the more skilled player. But Chelios was better than Leetch defensively, and, obviously, had a longer period as a high-impact player / Norris candidate, etc.

But a lot of these things are team influenced... probably more than we realize. If Chelios had gone from Chicago to the Rangers in 1997-98, and Leetch had gone to Detroit the same year, we'd probably now be talking of Leetch as having had the greater career.
 

Matsun

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Aug 15, 2010
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Posted this list in another thread:
1: Gretzky. Very strong argument for best regular season peak and a very strong argument for best playoff peak. Clearly the best regular season+playoff peak ever. Add on the best prime ever outside his peak seasons and he is the clear pick for number 1 for me even if he ''only'' played until he was 38.

2: Howe: I think I have him 2, I never really thought about it that much before this list. I feel like his peak is close enough to the next 2 players that his massive edge in prime and longevity makes up for it.

3: Orr: Maybe the highest peak ever, but nothing else. I also feel his teams should've done more in the playoffs. Unlike Mario I actually don't think Orr had another level to reach without injuries, he got to play with ideal teammates and superstars while healthy for a lot of seasons in his peak.

4: Lemieux: Mario has some strong seasons outside his peak unlike Orr, but he has so few peak seasons I still place the defender ahead. I think he has the 3rd strongest peak behind Orr and Gretzky and I could see a case that Mario might've have missed out on his actual peak unlike Orr, but that doesn't affect my ranking.

5: McDavid:
Most Art Ross wins
Wayne Gretzky11
Gordie Howe6
Mario Lemieux6
Connor McDavid5
Jaromir Jagr5
Phil Esposito5

Most times top 3 in points
Wayne Gretzky15
Gordie Howe12
Mario Lemieux8
Connor McDavid8
Sidney Crosby8
Phil Esposito8
Stan Mikita8

Highest playoff PPGGPPPG
Wayne Gretzky2081,84
Mario Lemieux1071,61
Connor McDavid741,58

Most points in a season (no Wayne/Mario)SeasonGPGAPPPG
Steve Yzerman88-898065901551,94
Connor McDavid22-238264891531,87
Phil Esposito*70-717876761521,95
Bernie Nicholls*88-897970801501,9
Jaromir Jagr*95-968262871491,82
*played with Wayne, Orr or Mario

He is right at the point when Bobby Orr's body broke down, 9 years and 630 games in. If that's enough games to put Orr at 3rd I think it's enough games to put McDavid at 5th. McDavids peak might be better than Howes so I can actually see him climb up this list in the future which I never thought about Crosby.

6: Bourque. The Howe of defensemen. Strong peak and GOAT longevity. Also strong in playoffs. Not sure I think his peak is as impressive among defensemen as Howe is for forwards though. I feel that peak Howe would be favored to win the Hart against every forward in history except Mario and Wayne, I don't feel like that for Bourque. I could see players like Robinson or Pronger challenging even a peak Bourque. Still one of the best peaks ever for a defensemen, and my 2nd highest ranked d-man of all time.

7: Jagr. Only Gretzky, Esposito and Jagr have won 4 straight Art Ross trophies. Jagr is also 2nd all time in scoring even though he played through the DPE, 2 lockouts and left for Russia. I also think he has a underrated peak. When McDavid had a dominant season with an asterisk in the covid year, and he proved that season was for real. Jagr had a 149 point season that get an asterisk because he played for that insane Pittsburgh team with Mario and Francis and he never hit 130+ points again. The thing is he did hit those levels again, only he hit them between seasons.

1999 Calendar YearTeamGPGAPP/GP
Jaromir JagrPIT8463891521,81
Teemu SelanneANA8448611091,3
Paul KariyaANA864254961,12
Pavol DemitraSTL853555901,06
Theo FleuryCOL, NYR753258901,2
Pierre TurgeonSTL753553881,17
John LeClairPHI784146871,12
Eric LindrosPHI703750871,24
Joe SakicCOL653552871,34
Owen NolanSJS874342850,98
Jeremy RoenickPHX792952811,03
Tony AmonteCHI853941800,94
Ziggy PalffyNYI, LAK783545801,03
Mike ModanoDAL793742791
Mats SundinTOR753441751
Mark RecchiPHI772649750,97
Petr SykoraNJD832943720,87
Ray WhitneyFLA853041710,84
Alex KovalevPIT863139700,81
Jason AllisonBOS802248700,88

This is the scoring in the calendar year 1999 in the middle of the dead puck era. His 149 point season with Mario was in 1996, 3 years earlier. This stretch of games was between Jagr's 2 seasons were he won the Art Ross with 20 points and then won the Art Ross while missing 19 games. Jagr has no Mario, Francis, Stevens or Coffey on his team. Only Wayne, Mario and McDavid has had more points in a year. Kovalev was Jagr's closest teammate with 70 points and finishing 19th in scoring this period. When Espositio hit 150 Bobby Orr had 139 (jesus), Bucyk had 116, Hodge had 105, Cashman had 79, McKenzie had 77 and Stanfield had 76. When McDavid hit 150+ we saw Draisaitl have 128 points, RNH have 104 and Hyman get 83. When Yzerman hit 150+ Gallant had 93 points, Adam Oates had 78 and Paul McClean had 71. This was Jagrs real peak.

His early playoffs are also underrated, and while his playoffs in his peak are not bad they are not like what McDavid has shown. I think Jagr is really hard to rank. When I compare him to Crosby I have Crosby ahead until age 23 (Jagr 149 point/Crosby first concussion). From that point Jagr is catching up and passing Crosby really quickly when Crosby is injured. But even when Crosby gets healthy Jagr is just better at this point. Even Washington Jagr was comparable to Crosby at the same age.
From ages 29-31TeamPPGPoints
JagrWAS5th5th
CrosbyPIT4th3rd

8: Hasek. I had to have one goalie on this list and I chose Hasek because of his GOAT level peak. He entered the league in his peak so we have very little NHL longevity to go on, but judging how he won goalie of the year for 4 seasons in a row before entering the NHL I feel like he probably had more great seasons for us. I don't give bonus points for that, but I might've given him minus points if he had played and sucked before his peak (kind of unfair, but my list).

9: Crosby. Crosby at the start of his career is nearly GOAT level, but I feel like he lost momentum in his third season (though he started dominating in the playoffs). I'm not sure Crosbys age 22 season when he won the Richard is better than MacKinnons age 22 season in 2018 when he broke out and should've won the Hart. Then Crosbys injuries started ofcourse, but after he got healthy and won the Ross at age 26 he didn't hit 90 points for the next 4 seasons even though he was healthy. I think he has been historically great after age 31.

My big problem with Crosby are not the seasons between 11-13 when he had all those injuries, my problem are the seasons after that. He played 80, 77, 80, 75 and 82 games in the next 5 seasons against easy competition. This was before McDavid, Kucherov, Draisaitl and MacKinnon. Malkin and Stamkos were injured and Ov only scoring goals so I think a healthy Crosby should've dominated the awards these seasons. He won 2 cups in that period so I don't think he minds. We saw young McDavid winning back 2 back Art Ross trophies during that time which makes me feel like they are on a different level as offensive players.

This all feels very critical, but it's only because on the surface Crosby is nearly flawless. All time longevity, all time winner and playoff performer, all time great start to his career and he could've had an all time peak too without injuries. I don't think Crosby is as perfect as that makes it sound.

10: Phil Esposito. This is scoring leaders in 68-69:
1968-69GPGAPPPG
Esposito7449771261,70
Hull7458491071,45
Howe7644591031,36
Mikita743067971,31
Hodge754545901,2
Down at 23 in scoring:
Orr672143640,96
In the playoffs:
1968-69GPGAPPPG
Esposito10810181,80
Beliveau14510151,07
Duff1468141,00
Hodge1057121,20
Bucyk1056111,1
Orr101780,80
I think this season is pretty much as impressive as any of Lafleurs or Jagrs peak seasons and this is before Orr really started to become superhuman. We all know what happens to Esposito and his production when Orr reaches superstardom and I don't know how to properly evaluate those seasons and how much he becomes a product of Orr at that point. I assume that Esposito would atleast be capable of seasons like in 69 even if Orr didn't hit the next level. If I were to give Esposito more credit for his monster peak in the 70s then I might have him 6th. I understand people ranking Esposito lower than I do, but the guy had a super strong season before Orr (kind of) so it feels wrong to deduct points from him just because he happened to end up in an incredible situation for statpadding.
 

Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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Posted this list in another thread:
1: Gretzky. Very strong argument for best regular season peak and a very strong argument for best playoff peak. Clearly the best regular season+playoff peak ever. Add on the best prime ever outside his peak seasons and he is the clear pick for number 1 for me even if he ''only'' played until he was 38.

2: Howe: I think I have him 2, I never really thought about it that much before this list. I feel like his peak is close enough to the next 2 players that his massive edge in prime and longevity makes up for it.

3: Orr: Maybe the highest peak ever, but nothing else. I also feel his teams should've done more in the playoffs. Unlike Mario I actually don't think Orr had another level to reach without injuries, he got to play with ideal teammates and superstars while healthy for a lot of seasons in his peak.

4: Lemieux: Mario has some strong seasons outside his peak unlike Orr, but he has so few peak seasons I still place the defender ahead. I think he has the 3rd strongest peak behind Orr and Gretzky and I could see a case that Mario might've have missed out on his actual peak unlike Orr, but that doesn't affect my ranking.

5: McDavid:
Most Art Ross wins
Wayne Gretzky11
Gordie Howe6
Mario Lemieux6
Connor McDavid5
Jaromir Jagr5
Phil Esposito5

Most times top 3 in points
Wayne Gretzky15
Gordie Howe12
Mario Lemieux8
Connor McDavid8
Sidney Crosby8
Phil Esposito8
Stan Mikita8

Highest playoff PPGGPPPG
Wayne Gretzky2081,84
Mario Lemieux1071,61
Connor McDavid741,58

Most points in a season (no Wayne/Mario)SeasonGPGAPPPG
Steve Yzerman88-898065901551,94
Connor McDavid22-238264891531,87
Phil Esposito*70-717876761521,95
Bernie Nicholls*88-897970801501,9
Jaromir Jagr*95-968262871491,82
*played with Wayne, Orr or Mario

He is right at the point when Bobby Orr's body broke down, 9 years and 630 games in. If that's enough games to put Orr at 3rd I think it's enough games to put McDavid at 5th. McDavids peak might be better than Howes so I can actually see him climb up this list in the future which I never thought about Crosby.

6: Bourque. The Howe of defensemen. Strong peak and GOAT longevity. Also strong in playoffs. Not sure I think his peak is as impressive among defensemen as Howe is for forwards though. I feel that peak Howe would be favored to win the Hart against every forward in history except Mario and Wayne, I don't feel like that for Bourque. I could see players like Robinson or Pronger challenging even a peak Bourque. Still one of the best peaks ever for a defensemen, and my 2nd highest ranked d-man of all time.

7: Jagr. Only Gretzky, Esposito and Jagr have won 4 straight Art Ross trophies. Jagr is also 2nd all time in scoring even though he played through the DPE, 2 lockouts and left for Russia. I also think he has a underrated peak. When McDavid had a dominant season with an asterisk in the covid year, and he proved that season was for real. Jagr had a 149 point season that get an asterisk because he played for that insane Pittsburgh team with Mario and Francis and he never hit 130+ points again. The thing is he did hit those levels again, only he hit them between seasons.

1999 Calendar YearTeamGPGAPP/GP
Jaromir JagrPIT8463891521,81
Teemu SelanneANA8448611091,3
Paul KariyaANA864254961,12
Pavol DemitraSTL853555901,06
Theo FleuryCOL, NYR753258901,2
Pierre TurgeonSTL753553881,17
John LeClairPHI784146871,12
Eric LindrosPHI703750871,24
Joe SakicCOL653552871,34
Owen NolanSJS874342850,98
Jeremy RoenickPHX792952811,03
Tony AmonteCHI853941800,94
Ziggy PalffyNYI, LAK783545801,03
Mike ModanoDAL793742791
Mats SundinTOR753441751
Mark RecchiPHI772649750,97
Petr SykoraNJD832943720,87
Ray WhitneyFLA853041710,84
Alex KovalevPIT863139700,81
Jason AllisonBOS802248700,88

This is the scoring in the calendar year 1999 in the middle of the dead puck era. His 149 point season with Mario was in 1996, 3 years earlier. This stretch of games was between Jagr's 2 seasons were he won the Art Ross with 20 points and then won the Art Ross while missing 19 games. Jagr has no Mario, Francis, Stevens or Coffey on his team. Only Wayne, Mario and McDavid has had more points in a year. Kovalev was Jagr's closest teammate with 70 points and finishing 19th in scoring this period. When Espositio hit 150 Bobby Orr had 139 (jesus), Bucyk had 116, Hodge had 105, Cashman had 79, McKenzie had 77 and Stanfield had 76. When McDavid hit 150+ we saw Draisaitl have 128 points, RNH have 104 and Hyman get 83. When Yzerman hit 150+ Gallant had 93 points, Adam Oates had 78 and Paul McClean had 71. This was Jagrs real peak.

His early playoffs are also underrated, and while his playoffs in his peak are not bad they are not like what McDavid has shown. I think Jagr is really hard to rank. When I compare him to Crosby I have Crosby ahead until age 23 (Jagr 149 point/Crosby first concussion). From that point Jagr is catching up and passing Crosby really quickly when Crosby is injured. But even when Crosby gets healthy Jagr is just better at this point. Even Washington Jagr was comparable to Crosby at the same age.
From ages 29-31TeamPPGPoints
JagrWAS5th5th
CrosbyPIT4th3rd

8: Hasek. I had to have one goalie on this list and I chose Hasek because of his GOAT level peak. He entered the league in his peak so we have very little NHL longevity to go on, but judging how he won goalie of the year for 4 seasons in a row before entering the NHL I feel like he probably had more great seasons for us. I don't give bonus points for that, but I might've given him minus points if he had played and sucked before his peak (kind of unfair, but my list).

9: Crosby. Crosby at the start of his career is nearly GOAT level, but I feel like he lost momentum in his third season (though he started dominating in the playoffs). I'm not sure Crosbys age 22 season when he won the Richard is better than MacKinnons age 22 season in 2018 when he broke out and should've won the Hart. Then Crosbys injuries started ofcourse, but after he got healthy and won the Ross at age 26 he didn't hit 90 points for the next 4 seasons even though he was healthy. I think he has been historically great after age 31.

My big problem with Crosby are not the seasons between 11-13 when he had all those injuries, my problem are the seasons after that. He played 80, 77, 80, 75 and 82 games in the next 5 seasons against easy competition. This was before McDavid, Kucherov, Draisaitl and MacKinnon. Malkin and Stamkos were injured and Ov only scoring goals so I think a healthy Crosby should've dominated the awards these seasons. He won 2 cups in that period so I don't think he minds. We saw young McDavid winning back 2 back Art Ross trophies during that time which makes me feel like they are on a different level as offensive players.

This all feels very critical, but it's only because on the surface Crosby is nearly flawless. All time longevity, all time winner and playoff performer, all time great start to his career and he could've had an all time peak too without injuries. I don't think Crosby is as perfect as that makes it sound.

10: Phil Esposito. This is scoring leaders in 68-69:
1968-69GPGAPPPG
Esposito7449771261,70
Hull7458491071,45
Howe7644591031,36
Mikita743067971,31
Hodge754545901,2
Down at 23 in scoring:
Orr672143640,96
In the playoffs:
1968-69GPGAPPPG
Esposito10810181,80
Beliveau14510151,07
Duff1468141,00
Hodge1057121,20
Bucyk1056111,1
Orr101780,80
I think this season is pretty much as impressive as any of Lafleurs or Jagrs peak seasons and this is before Orr really started to become superhuman. We all know what happens to Esposito and his production when Orr reaches superstardom and I don't know how to properly evaluate those seasons and how much he becomes a product of Orr at that point. I assume that Esposito would atleast be capable of seasons like in 69 even if Orr didn't hit the next level. If I were to give Esposito more credit for his monster peak in the 70s then I might have him 6th. I understand people ranking Esposito lower than I do, but the guy had a super strong season before Orr (kind of) so it feels wrong to deduct points from him just because he happened to end up in an incredible situation for statpadding.
Esposito is not ahead of Hull Sr.
 
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Matsun

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Aug 15, 2010
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Esposito is not ahead of Hull Sr.
1959-60GPGAPPPG
Hull703942811,16
Horvath683941801,18
Bathgate702648741,06
Beliveau603440741,23
Howe702545701
1961-62GPGAPPPG
Bathgate702856841,20
Hull705034841,20
Howe703344771,10
Mikita702552771,10
Maholich703338711,01
1963-64GPGAPPPG
Mikita703950891,27
Hull704344871,24
Howe682850781,15
Bathgate711958771,08
Howe692647731,06
1964-65GPGAPPPG
Mikita702859871,24
Ullman704241831,19
Howe702947761,09
Hull613932711,16
Delvecchio682542670,99
1965-66GPGAPPPG
Hull655443971,49
Mikita683048781,15
Rousseau703048781,11
Beliveau672948771,15
Howe702946751,07
1966-67GPGAPPPG
Mikita703562971,39
Hull665228801,21
Ullman682644701,03
Howe692540650,94
Wharram703134650,93
1967-68GPGAPPPG
Mikita724047871,21
Esposito743549841,14
Howe743943821,11
Ratelle743246781,05
Gilbert732948771,05
Hull714431751,06
1968-69GPGAPPPG
Esposito7449771261,70
Hull7458491071,45
Howe7644591031,36
Mikita743067971,31
Hodge754545901,2
I think 69 Hull is a top 3 season for him and he was not close to Esposito that year. I can see 66 Hull challenging Esposito, but this is also not peak Espo we are talking about- and Espo has several more seasons at this level.
 
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Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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1959-60GPGAPPPG
Hull703942811,16
Horvath683941801,18
Bathgate702648741,06
Beliveau603440741,23
Howe702545701
1961-62GPGAPPPG
Bathgate702856841,20
Hull705034841,20
Howe703344771,10
Mikita702552771,10
Maholich703338711,01
1963-64GPGAPPPG
Mikita703950891,27
Hull704344871,24
Howe682850781,15
Bathgate711958771,08
Howe692647731,06
1964-65GPGAPPPG
Mikita702859871,24
Ullman704241831,19
Howe702947761,09
Hull613932711,16
Delvecchio682542670,99
1965-66GPGAPPPG
Hull655443971,49
Mikita683048781,15
Rousseau703048781,11
Beliveau672948771,15
Howe702946751,07
1966-67GPGAPPPG
Mikita703562971,39
Hull665228801,21
Ullman682644701,03
Howe692540650,94
Wharram703134650,93
1967-68GPGAPPPG
Mikita724047871,21
Esposito743549841,14
Howe743943821,11
Ratelle743246781,05
Gilbert732948771,05
Hull714431751,06
1968-69GPGAPPPG
Esposito7449771261,70
Hull7458491071,45
Howe7644591031,36
Mikita743067971,31
Hodge754545901,2
I think 69 Hull is a top 3 season for him and he was not close to Esposito that year. I can see 66 Hull challenging Esposito, but this is also not peak Espo we are talking about- and Espo has several more seasons at this level.
Hull first in points by 93 from rookie season until he left for WHA.
First in goals, with a 140 lead in NHL in that time.
7x rocket winner, one behind OV
There is a reason he’s top 10 all time and Espo is not.

Latest HFB hockey history ranking has him 5th all time, Esposito was 27th. From 18/19 rankings.
It’s not Esposito ahead of Hull.
I watched both play and it’s Bobby.
 
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jigglysquishy

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Jun 20, 2011
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Regina, Saskatchewan
It's extremely clear from contemporary opinion and video evidence that Bobby Hull was a substantially better hockey player than Esposito. Numbers are great, but they aren't the end result in of themselves. They just describe what happened.

You can flip through newspapers from the season and read massive Orr praise. There's far less Esposito praise.

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Nov 3, 1969
Bobby Orr has reached that stage in his development where he is compared with Eddie Shore and Doug Harvey, who are generally conceded to be the two top defensemen of the modern era.


The Montreal Gazette · ‎Jan 9, 1969
Bobby Orr is obviously the best hockey player to break into the league in many years and he isn't 21 yet. He was only 18 when he joined the Boston Bruins, but he had it all even then.

The Windsor Star · ‎Apr 26, 1969
The Bruins thought they were ready to take over the world. They certainly had the technical impedimenta to do it. But their time is not quite yet. Their greatest player, Bobby Orr is a stripling of 21.

Phil Esposito, the new scoring champion and probably winner of the Hart award... missed so many scoring chances in the closing games, it became a common conversation piece.

The Bruins, who with the exception of Orr were tiring visibly in the second overtime.

The Phoenix · ‎May 11, 1968
While he was extremely pleased with his award at the luncheon Friday, [Derek] Sanderson was more inclined to talk about Orr, who he called "the real leader of our team. "
"The guy almost never does anything wrong, he said, "He's the greatest I've ever seen. He skates well, passes perfectly, is a great stickhandler and has a real hard shot."

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Feb 15, 1969
One of the surprises of the season has been the emergence of Phil Esposito as a scoring leader. He had some good years when he was with the Chicago Black Hawks, but nothing to indicate that he was going to developer into the leader he has become with the Bruins.

"I think I can explain that," coach Harry Sinden said. "You see, conditions didn't demand too much of him in Chicago. He was always under the shadow of Hull and Mikita"


Now, Esposito is an all-time great in his own right. I think he gets misaligned too much as a product of Orr. But make no mistake, throughout the 60s and 70s he was always viewed below Hull from an all time context.

Even in 1968-68, where Esposito leads in points and wins the Hart, it's Orr that gets the bulk of the praise.
 

BigBadBruins7708

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Dec 11, 2017
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Posted this list in another thread:
1: Gretzky. Very strong argument for best regular season peak and a very strong argument for best playoff peak. Clearly the best regular season+playoff peak ever. Add on the best prime ever outside his peak seasons and he is the clear pick for number 1 for me even if he ''only'' played until he was 38.

2: Howe: I think I have him 2, I never really thought about it that much before this list. I feel like his peak is close enough to the next 2 players that his massive edge in prime and longevity makes up for it.

3: Orr: Maybe the highest peak ever, but nothing else. I also feel his teams should've done more in the playoffs. Unlike Mario I actually don't think Orr had another level to reach without injuries, he got to play with ideal teammates and superstars while healthy for a lot of seasons in his peak.

4: Lemieux: Mario has some strong seasons outside his peak unlike Orr, but he has so few peak seasons I still place the defender ahead. I think he has the 3rd strongest peak behind Orr and Gretzky and I could see a case that Mario might've have missed out on his actual peak unlike Orr, but that doesn't affect my ranking.

5: McDavid:
Most Art Ross wins
Wayne Gretzky11
Gordie Howe6
Mario Lemieux6
Connor McDavid5
Jaromir Jagr5
Phil Esposito5

Most times top 3 in points
Wayne Gretzky15
Gordie Howe12
Mario Lemieux8
Connor McDavid8
Sidney Crosby8
Phil Esposito8
Stan Mikita8

Highest playoff PPGGPPPG
Wayne Gretzky2081,84
Mario Lemieux1071,61
Connor McDavid741,58

Most points in a season (no Wayne/Mario)SeasonGPGAPPPG
Steve Yzerman88-898065901551,94
Connor McDavid22-238264891531,87
Phil Esposito*70-717876761521,95
Bernie Nicholls*88-897970801501,9
Jaromir Jagr*95-968262871491,82
*played with Wayne, Orr or Mario

He is right at the point when Bobby Orr's body broke down, 9 years and 630 games in. If that's enough games to put Orr at 3rd I think it's enough games to put McDavid at 5th. McDavids peak might be better than Howes so I can actually see him climb up this list in the future which I never thought about Crosby.

6: Bourque. The Howe of defensemen. Strong peak and GOAT longevity. Also strong in playoffs. Not sure I think his peak is as impressive among defensemen as Howe is for forwards though. I feel that peak Howe would be favored to win the Hart against every forward in history except Mario and Wayne, I don't feel like that for Bourque. I could see players like Robinson or Pronger challenging even a peak Bourque. Still one of the best peaks ever for a defensemen, and my 2nd highest ranked d-man of all time.

7: Jagr. Only Gretzky, Esposito and Jagr have won 4 straight Art Ross trophies. Jagr is also 2nd all time in scoring even though he played through the DPE, 2 lockouts and left for Russia. I also think he has a underrated peak. When McDavid had a dominant season with an asterisk in the covid year, and he proved that season was for real. Jagr had a 149 point season that get an asterisk because he played for that insane Pittsburgh team with Mario and Francis and he never hit 130+ points again. The thing is he did hit those levels again, only he hit them between seasons.

1999 Calendar YearTeamGPGAPP/GP
Jaromir JagrPIT8463891521,81
Teemu SelanneANA8448611091,3
Paul KariyaANA864254961,12
Pavol DemitraSTL853555901,06
Theo FleuryCOL, NYR753258901,2
Pierre TurgeonSTL753553881,17
John LeClairPHI784146871,12
Eric LindrosPHI703750871,24
Joe SakicCOL653552871,34
Owen NolanSJS874342850,98
Jeremy RoenickPHX792952811,03
Tony AmonteCHI853941800,94
Ziggy PalffyNYI, LAK783545801,03
Mike ModanoDAL793742791
Mats SundinTOR753441751
Mark RecchiPHI772649750,97
Petr SykoraNJD832943720,87
Ray WhitneyFLA853041710,84
Alex KovalevPIT863139700,81
Jason AllisonBOS802248700,88

This is the scoring in the calendar year 1999 in the middle of the dead puck era. His 149 point season with Mario was in 1996, 3 years earlier. This stretch of games was between Jagr's 2 seasons were he won the Art Ross with 20 points and then won the Art Ross while missing 19 games. Jagr has no Mario, Francis, Stevens or Coffey on his team. Only Wayne, Mario and McDavid has had more points in a year. Kovalev was Jagr's closest teammate with 70 points and finishing 19th in scoring this period. When Espositio hit 150 Bobby Orr had 139 (jesus), Bucyk had 116, Hodge had 105, Cashman had 79, McKenzie had 77 and Stanfield had 76. When McDavid hit 150+ we saw Draisaitl have 128 points, RNH have 104 and Hyman get 83. When Yzerman hit 150+ Gallant had 93 points, Adam Oates had 78 and Paul McClean had 71. This was Jagrs real peak.

His early playoffs are also underrated, and while his playoffs in his peak are not bad they are not like what McDavid has shown. I think Jagr is really hard to rank. When I compare him to Crosby I have Crosby ahead until age 23 (Jagr 149 point/Crosby first concussion). From that point Jagr is catching up and passing Crosby really quickly when Crosby is injured. But even when Crosby gets healthy Jagr is just better at this point. Even Washington Jagr was comparable to Crosby at the same age.
From ages 29-31TeamPPGPoints
JagrWAS5th5th
CrosbyPIT4th3rd

8: Hasek. I had to have one goalie on this list and I chose Hasek because of his GOAT level peak. He entered the league in his peak so we have very little NHL longevity to go on, but judging how he won goalie of the year for 4 seasons in a row before entering the NHL I feel like he probably had more great seasons for us. I don't give bonus points for that, but I might've given him minus points if he had played and sucked before his peak (kind of unfair, but my list).

9: Crosby. Crosby at the start of his career is nearly GOAT level, but I feel like he lost momentum in his third season (though he started dominating in the playoffs). I'm not sure Crosbys age 22 season when he won the Richard is better than MacKinnons age 22 season in 2018 when he broke out and should've won the Hart. Then Crosbys injuries started ofcourse, but after he got healthy and won the Ross at age 26 he didn't hit 90 points for the next 4 seasons even though he was healthy. I think he has been historically great after age 31.

My big problem with Crosby are not the seasons between 11-13 when he had all those injuries, my problem are the seasons after that. He played 80, 77, 80, 75 and 82 games in the next 5 seasons against easy competition. This was before McDavid, Kucherov, Draisaitl and MacKinnon. Malkin and Stamkos were injured and Ov only scoring goals so I think a healthy Crosby should've dominated the awards these seasons. He won 2 cups in that period so I don't think he minds. We saw young McDavid winning back 2 back Art Ross trophies during that time which makes me feel like they are on a different level as offensive players.

This all feels very critical, but it's only because on the surface Crosby is nearly flawless. All time longevity, all time winner and playoff performer, all time great start to his career and he could've had an all time peak too without injuries. I don't think Crosby is as perfect as that makes it sound.

10: Phil Esposito. This is scoring leaders in 68-69:
1968-69GPGAPPPG
Esposito7449771261,70
Hull7458491071,45
Howe7644591031,36
Mikita743067971,31
Hodge754545901,2
Down at 23 in scoring:
Orr672143640,96
In the playoffs:
1968-69GPGAPPPG
Esposito10810181,80
Beliveau14510151,07
Duff1468141,00
Hodge1057121,20
Bucyk1056111,1
Orr101780,80
I think this season is pretty much as impressive as any of Lafleurs or Jagrs peak seasons and this is before Orr really started to become superhuman. We all know what happens to Esposito and his production when Orr reaches superstardom and I don't know how to properly evaluate those seasons and how much he becomes a product of Orr at that point. I assume that Esposito would atleast be capable of seasons like in 69 even if Orr didn't hit the next level. If I were to give Esposito more credit for his monster peak in the 70s then I might have him 6th. I understand people ranking Esposito lower than I do, but the guy had a super strong season before Orr (kind of) so it feels wrong to deduct points from him just because he happened to end up in an incredible situation for statpadding.

I'd argue that Orr absolutely had another gear we never got to see due to injuries.

1. His last full season he was only 26 years old.

2. He had his career high in goals with 46 and put up 46-89-135 winning the Ross/Norris/Pearson

3. Keep in mind, we never saw a 100% Orr. His first knee injury was in his rookie season and had nagging knee issues throughout his career.

Additionally, yes he and Esposito were a great duo, but overall he did not have ideal teammates or any other superstars on his team. Yes other guys put up strong #s, but that was from playing with Orr. It's not like they were close to the Lafleur Habs in talent.
 

Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
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Esposito is not ahead of Hull Sr.
He sure is ahead on my list.

I'd argue that Orr absolutely had another gear we never got to see due to injuries.

1. His last full season he was only 26 years old.

2. He had his career high in goals with 46 and put up 46-89-135 winning the Ross/Norris/Pearson

3. Keep in mind, we never saw a 100% Orr. His first knee injury was in his rookie season and had nagging knee issues throughout his career.

Additionally, yes he and Esposito were a great duo, but overall he did not have ideal teammates or any other superstars on his team. Yes other guys put up strong #s, but that was from playing with Orr. It's not like they were close to the Lafleur Habs in talent.
Espo was amazing even without Orr.
 

Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
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Even in 1968-68, where Esposito leads in points and wins the Hart, it's Orr that gets the bulk of the praise.
Because Orr was doing something hitherto unseen.

Esposito beats Hull in almost every category except retro-Richards. He has (arguably) higher goalscoring peak (best until Gretzky). 3x assists leads, 8x Top3 in points, beat Orr for Hart TWICE, and won the Cup twice (Hull once).

I rank Espo #6 and Hull #11.
 
Last edited:

pappyline

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Jul 3, 2005
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Mass/formerly Ont
In reading some of the rankings here, I thought I had inadvertently ventured onto the main board rather than HOH. It is unbelievable that so many people have Bobby Hull out of the top 10. A solid #5 for me. Here is an example of his play in the 1976 Canada cup in the twilight of his career.

 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
20,110
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Tokyo, Japan
Posted this list in another thread:
1: Gretzky. Very strong argument for best regular season peak and a very strong argument for best playoff peak. Clearly the best regular season+playoff peak ever. Add on the best prime ever outside his peak seasons and he is the clear pick for number 1 for me even if he ''only'' played until he was 38.

2: Howe: I think I have him 2, I never really thought about it that much before this list. I feel like his peak is close enough to the next 2 players that his massive edge in prime and longevity makes up for it.

3: Orr: Maybe the highest peak ever, but nothing else. I also feel his teams should've done more in the playoffs. Unlike Mario I actually don't think Orr had another level to reach without injuries, he got to play with ideal teammates and superstars while healthy for a lot of seasons in his peak.

4: Lemieux: Mario has some strong seasons outside his peak unlike Orr, but he has so few peak seasons I still place the defender ahead. I think he has the 3rd strongest peak behind Orr and Gretzky and I could see a case that Mario might've have missed out on his actual peak unlike Orr, but that doesn't affect my ranking.

5: McDavid:
Most Art Ross wins
Wayne Gretzky11
Gordie Howe6
Mario Lemieux6
Connor McDavid5
Jaromir Jagr5
Phil Esposito5

Most times top 3 in points
Wayne Gretzky15
Gordie Howe12
Mario Lemieux8
Connor McDavid8
Sidney Crosby8
Phil Esposito8
Stan Mikita8

Highest playoff PPGGPPPG
Wayne Gretzky2081,84
Mario Lemieux1071,61
Connor McDavid741,58

Most points in a season (no Wayne/Mario)SeasonGPGAPPPG
Steve Yzerman88-898065901551,94
Connor McDavid22-238264891531,87
Phil Esposito*70-717876761521,95
Bernie Nicholls*88-897970801501,9
Jaromir Jagr*95-968262871491,82
*played with Wayne, Orr or Mario

He is right at the point when Bobby Orr's body broke down, 9 years and 630 games in. If that's enough games to put Orr at 3rd I think it's enough games to put McDavid at 5th. McDavids peak might be better than Howes so I can actually see him climb up this list in the future which I never thought about Crosby.

6: Bourque. The Howe of defensemen. Strong peak and GOAT longevity. Also strong in playoffs. Not sure I think his peak is as impressive among defensemen as Howe is for forwards though. I feel that peak Howe would be favored to win the Hart against every forward in history except Mario and Wayne, I don't feel like that for Bourque. I could see players like Robinson or Pronger challenging even a peak Bourque. Still one of the best peaks ever for a defensemen, and my 2nd highest ranked d-man of all time.

7: Jagr. Only Gretzky, Esposito and Jagr have won 4 straight Art Ross trophies. Jagr is also 2nd all time in scoring even though he played through the DPE, 2 lockouts and left for Russia. I also think he has a underrated peak. When McDavid had a dominant season with an asterisk in the covid year, and he proved that season was for real. Jagr had a 149 point season that get an asterisk because he played for that insane Pittsburgh team with Mario and Francis and he never hit 130+ points again. The thing is he did hit those levels again, only he hit them between seasons.

1999 Calendar YearTeamGPGAPP/GP
Jaromir JagrPIT8463891521,81
Teemu SelanneANA8448611091,3
Paul KariyaANA864254961,12
Pavol DemitraSTL853555901,06
Theo FleuryCOL, NYR753258901,2
Pierre TurgeonSTL753553881,17
John LeClairPHI784146871,12
Eric LindrosPHI703750871,24
Joe SakicCOL653552871,34
Owen NolanSJS874342850,98
Jeremy RoenickPHX792952811,03
Tony AmonteCHI853941800,94
Ziggy PalffyNYI, LAK783545801,03
Mike ModanoDAL793742791
Mats SundinTOR753441751
Mark RecchiPHI772649750,97
Petr SykoraNJD832943720,87
Ray WhitneyFLA853041710,84
Alex KovalevPIT863139700,81
Jason AllisonBOS802248700,88

This is the scoring in the calendar year 1999 in the middle of the dead puck era. His 149 point season with Mario was in 1996, 3 years earlier. This stretch of games was between Jagr's 2 seasons were he won the Art Ross with 20 points and then won the Art Ross while missing 19 games. Jagr has no Mario, Francis, Stevens or Coffey on his team. Only Wayne, Mario and McDavid has had more points in a year. Kovalev was Jagr's closest teammate with 70 points and finishing 19th in scoring this period. When Espositio hit 150 Bobby Orr had 139 (jesus), Bucyk had 116, Hodge had 105, Cashman had 79, McKenzie had 77 and Stanfield had 76. When McDavid hit 150+ we saw Draisaitl have 128 points, RNH have 104 and Hyman get 83. When Yzerman hit 150+ Gallant had 93 points, Adam Oates had 78 and Paul McClean had 71. This was Jagrs real peak.

His early playoffs are also underrated, and while his playoffs in his peak are not bad they are not like what McDavid has shown. I think Jagr is really hard to rank. When I compare him to Crosby I have Crosby ahead until age 23 (Jagr 149 point/Crosby first concussion). From that point Jagr is catching up and passing Crosby really quickly when Crosby is injured. But even when Crosby gets healthy Jagr is just better at this point. Even Washington Jagr was comparable to Crosby at the same age.
From ages 29-31TeamPPGPoints
JagrWAS5th5th
CrosbyPIT4th3rd

8: Hasek. I had to have one goalie on this list and I chose Hasek because of his GOAT level peak. He entered the league in his peak so we have very little NHL longevity to go on, but judging how he won goalie of the year for 4 seasons in a row before entering the NHL I feel like he probably had more great seasons for us. I don't give bonus points for that, but I might've given him minus points if he had played and sucked before his peak (kind of unfair, but my list).

9: Crosby. Crosby at the start of his career is nearly GOAT level, but I feel like he lost momentum in his third season (though he started dominating in the playoffs). I'm not sure Crosbys age 22 season when he won the Richard is better than MacKinnons age 22 season in 2018 when he broke out and should've won the Hart. Then Crosbys injuries started ofcourse, but after he got healthy and won the Ross at age 26 he didn't hit 90 points for the next 4 seasons even though he was healthy. I think he has been historically great after age 31.

My big problem with Crosby are not the seasons between 11-13 when he had all those injuries, my problem are the seasons after that. He played 80, 77, 80, 75 and 82 games in the next 5 seasons against easy competition. This was before McDavid, Kucherov, Draisaitl and MacKinnon. Malkin and Stamkos were injured and Ov only scoring goals so I think a healthy Crosby should've dominated the awards these seasons. He won 2 cups in that period so I don't think he minds. We saw young McDavid winning back 2 back Art Ross trophies during that time which makes me feel like they are on a different level as offensive players.

This all feels very critical, but it's only because on the surface Crosby is nearly flawless. All time longevity, all time winner and playoff performer, all time great start to his career and he could've had an all time peak too without injuries. I don't think Crosby is as perfect as that makes it sound.

10: Phil Esposito. This is scoring leaders in 68-69:
1968-69GPGAPPPG
Esposito7449771261,70
Hull7458491071,45
Howe7644591031,36
Mikita743067971,31
Hodge754545901,2
Down at 23 in scoring:
Orr672143640,96
In the playoffs:
1968-69GPGAPPPG
Esposito10810181,80
Beliveau14510151,07
Duff1468141,00
Hodge1057121,20
Bucyk1056111,1
Orr101780,80
I think this season is pretty much as impressive as any of Lafleurs or Jagrs peak seasons and this is before Orr really started to become superhuman. We all know what happens to Esposito and his production when Orr reaches superstardom and I don't know how to properly evaluate those seasons and how much he becomes a product of Orr at that point. I assume that Esposito would atleast be capable of seasons like in 69 even if Orr didn't hit the next level. If I were to give Esposito more credit for his monster peak in the 70s then I might have him 6th. I understand people ranking Esposito lower than I do, but the guy had a super strong season before Orr (kind of) so it feels wrong to deduct points from him just because he happened to end up in an incredible situation for statpadding.
Impressive post! I basically concur with your top five, and while we view the rest somewhat differently, I enjoy your careful analysis.

By the way, who is your number two goalie?
 

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
10,716
6,210
Even Washington Jagr was comparable to Crosby at the same age.
Never expected to ever read that, then become of course possible it is Jagr we are talking about.

29-31 years old Jagr, was indeed 5th in points, 7th in ppg, 6th if we remove Lemieux (say 150 games played or more cut off).

But 29-31 years old Crosby (if we talk 2017-2019, using hockey reference hockey season age), was third in points, behind only prime McDavid and Kucherov that were quite the competition Jagr was 1 pts above Pavol Demitra and Alfredsson, 3 more than old Sundin.,

He was 4th in ppg and first in the nhl in playoff points.

Seem a clear enough Crosby win
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
20,110
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Tokyo, Japan
Until McDavid wins a Cup, he will not crack my Top10.
Yeah, okay. Now think about this:

-- Last spring, McDavid broke a Gretzky playoff scoring record, led the playoffs in scoring (for the 2nd time). He won the Conn Smythe. His team won the Western Conference.

-- Now, let's say this year or next year the Oilers get back to the Finals, and McDavid does a 2016-Crosby result with 3 points and -2 or whatever in the Finals.. and the Oilers win.

So, then, now he suddenly jumps into your top 10?

I personally think it's fine to consider team success in the broader context, and certainly individual playoff performance is a factor. But individuals do not win Stanley Cups.
 

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
10,716
6,210
-- Now, let's say this year or next year the Oilers get back to the Finals, and McDavid does a 2016-Crosby result with 3 points and -2 or whatever in the Finals.. and the Oilers win.
was it still 2016 very low scoring hockey where no one on the Oilers score more than one more points than him ?... He had 4 pts and +0, which sound very low but that was extremelly tight hockey, Letang did lead the team with 5.

Crosby did lead the penguins in even strength points during the Stanley Cup finals, playing the most minutes among forward by a good amount, winning the Smythe, that not some empty cup win finals story...

at 5v5 with a goaltender in net, when Crosby was on the ice outshot the Sharks 60 to 33 shots, we can create storyline from a bad 0.94 PDO roll, but he played excellent from memory.
 
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The Panther

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Mar 25, 2014
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Tokyo, Japan
was it still 2016 very low scoring hockey where no one on the Oilers score more than one more points than him ?... He had 4 pts and +0, which sound very low but that was extremelly tight hockey, Letang did lead the team with 5.

Crosby did lead the penguins in even strength points during the Stanley Cup finals, playing the most minutes among forward by a good amount, winning the Smythe, that not some empty cup win finals story...

at 5v5 with a goaltender in net, when Crosby was on the ice outshot the Sharks 60 to 33 shots, we can create storyline from a bad 0.94 PDO roll, but he played excellent from memory.
Okay, my point wasn't to diss Crosby. Change to 'X' player of your liking. My point is just that McDavid winning a Cup with a lesser ndividual playoff result than in '22 or '24 shouldn't suddenly make someone thrust him up their personal player lists just because his teammates suddenly started carrying the load.
 

Dingo

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Jul 13, 2018
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Lemieux
Hasek
McDavid
Gretzky
Orr
Crosby
Ovechkin
Lidstrom
Jagr
Forsberg
Kucherov
 
Last edited:

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
10,716
6,210
Well I'll give you credit for creating the worst list I've ever seen
It is not far from

And could be much closer to the truth that we love to think...
 

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