Top 10 Best NHL Players of All Time

[jigglysquishy]

Pass me some of what you're smoking.
He took a year off and wasn't there to bail them out and they didn't win the cup.

You're allowed to actually read the comment.

Look at the goals against in 1974 when they're eliminated by the Rangers. The Canadiens allow 18 goals in 6 games with the very uninspiring Michel Larocque. The difference is that Montreal's forwards in 1973 outperformed the ones in 1974.

The year before, when they defeat the Blackhawks, Dryden allows 21 goals in 6 games.

In the 1973 Finals,

Game 1: Habs go down 2-0 in the first 1:02 of the game. Dryden has to get bailed out and the Canadiens score 8 goals.
Game 2: The Canadiens only allow 19 shots. Dryden does well, stopping 18, but it should be noted that the Canadiens team thoroughly outplays Chicago, outshooting them comfortably every period.
Game 3: Dryden lets in the first goal at 1:59 of the first period. By the end of the first period, he let in 4 goals. Game ends with Chicago scoring 7.
Game 4: Legit shutout for Dryden, but I will again note the skaters do the work. After two periods they outshoot the Blackhawks 24-12.
Game 5: Dryden lets in 8 goals on 29 shots. Terrible game
Game 6: Dryden lets in 2 goals in the first 11:31 of the game to put his team behind. Eventually lets in 4 on 27 shots.

The result is a Cup win for Montreal. If we want to be binary it doesn't matter. But if you look game by game Montreal consistently outskates and outshoot Chicago, Dryden has three games where he gives up early goals to put his team behind, and has two games where he lets in 7+ goals. It's not a legendary performance, even if it results in a Cup.

He only has one great game out of six. The context matters.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Pass me some of what you're smoking.

You're apparently the only one in the forum not smoking it, whatever it is.

More specifically, please don't make personal attacks of this nature. Thanks!

 

[10Ducky10]

You're allowed to actually read the comment.

Look at the goals against in 1974 when they're eliminated by the Rangers. The Canadiens allow 18 goals in 6 games with the very uninspiring Michel Larocque. The difference is that Montreal's forwards in 1973 outperformed the ones in 1974.

The year before, when they defeat the Blackhawks, Dryden allows 21 goals in 6 games.

In the 1973 Finals,

Game 1: Habs go down 2-0 in the first 1:02 of the game. Dryden has to get bailed out and the Canadiens score 8 goals.
Game 2: The Canadiens only allow 19 shots. Dryden does well, stopping 18, but it should be noted that the Canadiens team thoroughly outplays Chicago, outshooting them comfortably every period.
Game 3: Dryden lets in the first goal at 1:59 of the first period. By the end of the first period, he let in 4 goals. Game ends with Chicago scoring 7.
Game 4: Legit shutout for Dryden, but I will again note the skaters do the work. After two periods they outshoot the Blackhawks 24-12.
Game 5: Dryden lets in 8 goals on 29 shots. Terrible game
Game 6: Dryden lets in 2 goals in the first 11:31 of the game to put his team behind. Eventually lets in 4 on 27 shots.

The result is a Cup win for Montreal. If we want to be binary it doesn't matter. But if you look game by game Montreal consistently outskates and outshoot Chicago, Dryden has three games where he gives up early goals to put his team behind, and has two games where he lets in 7+ goals. It's not a legendary performance, even if it results in a Cup.

He only has one great game out of six. The context matters.

How many of those goals did he have a chance on?
Best goalie of all time bar none.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Best goalie of all time bar none.

Said no-one ever.

 

[JackSlater]

You're allowed to actually read the comment.

Look at the goals against in 1974 when they're eliminated by the Rangers. The Canadiens allow 18 goals in 6 games with the very uninspiring Michel Larocque. The difference is that Montreal's forwards in 1973 outperformed the ones in 1974.

The year before, when they defeat the Blackhawks, Dryden allows 21 goals in 6 games.

In the 1973 Finals,

Game 1: Habs go down 2-0 in the first 1:02 of the game. Dryden has to get bailed out and the Canadiens score 8 goals.
Game 2: The Canadiens only allow 19 shots. Dryden does well, stopping 18, but it should be noted that the Canadiens team thoroughly outplays Chicago, outshooting them comfortably every period.
Game 3: Dryden lets in the first goal at 1:59 of the first period. By the end of the first period, he let in 4 goals. Game ends with Chicago scoring 7.
Game 4: Legit shutout for Dryden, but I will again note the skaters do the work. After two periods they outshoot the Blackhawks 24-12.
Game 5: Dryden lets in 8 goals on 29 shots. Terrible game
Game 6: Dryden lets in 2 goals in the first 11:31 of the game to put his team behind. Eventually lets in 4 on 27 shots.

The result is a Cup win for Montreal. If we want to be binary it doesn't matter. But if you look game by game Montreal consistently outskates and outshoot Chicago, Dryden has three games where he gives up early goals to put his team behind, and has two games where he lets in 7+ goals. It's not a legendary performance, even if it results in a Cup.

He only has one great game out of six. The context matters.

I like seeing some of this research, good stuff. Never was a Dryden fan, mainly because watching him left me so unimpressed and dominating on the best defensive team ever isn't quite enough for me.

Said no-one ever.

I've heard plenty of people throw Dryden out as the best goaltender ever. I've heard a lot suggest Fuhr too. To me they are both terrible answers, but people like goaltenders who played on great teams, especially if that goaltender was on a great team when the fan in question was young.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Right, the Dryden and Fuhr arguments typically stem from the "winning is the only thing that matters" point of view. Doesn't matter how the goaltender does it, because they must be doing something right.

It's more common than you'd think.

 

[Professor What]

No to Dryden, that’s just a bad pick, there are many better. ( goalies and players)

What about Datsyuk? He didn't even make the forum's top 100 list.

 

[Golden_Jet]

What about Datsyuk? He didn't even make the forum's top 100 list.

Ya another bad choice for a top 10 list.

 

[authentic]

Statistically, there is no debate that the elite offensive talent from the 06 accumulated more Top 3/5/10 scoring finishes than their current contemporaries. I.e. from '46 to '66, there were more players with multiple Top 3/5/10 scoring finishes on their resume than players from '00 to '20.

I looked at the average % gap between the 3rd, 5th and 10th scorers and the 1st/2nd place scorers for those 20 year periods. Generally speaking, a Top 3 finish in the 06 is the equivalent to a Top 5 in today's league and a Top 5 finish in the 06 is the equivalent to a Top 10 in the current league.

If one assumes that the quantity of league talent has generally increased with the expansion of the league, then it is a statistical reality that finishing in the Top XX in a league that has more teams is generally more impressive.

Crosby's resume of Top Ten point and PPG finishes are similar to Hull and Beliveau but when you look at the % behind the top scorer, he has a clear advantage over them. His Top Ten PPG finishes are closer to Howe's than they are to Hull/Beliveau. I.e. Crosby separated himself from his era peers at a greater degree than Beliveau and Hull.

I view this as giving Crosby an edge over those two when comparing their very similar offensive resumes but not as way to move him clearly above.

IMO, automatically discounting/ promoting a player's numbers because they played in an "easier"/"harder" is not reasonable.

At the end of the day, we have zero idea how a player would perform in another era but we can put reasonable context when comparing players' relative peer dominance.

Then there’s the additional context of Beliveau playing on a dynasty most of his entire career, the linemates factor favours Crosby here, he did more with less and was slightly more dominant against a greater pool of talent. This is why I don’t really see a reasonable argument for placing anyone but Howe over him from that era.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Then there’s the additional context of Beliveau playing on a dynasty most of his entire career, the linemates factor favours Crosby here, he did more with less and was slightly more dominant against a greater pool of talent. This is why I don’t really see a reasonable argument for placing anyone but Howe over him from that era.

I place Hull Sr. over Béliveau, and Richard right behind.

 

[authentic]

Well, nobody's making lists anymore, but I will. Lol

1. Bobby Orr
2. Gordie Howe
3. Wayne Gretzky
4. Mario Lemiuex
5. Jean Beliveau
6. Doug Harvey
7. Bobby Hull
8. Dominik Hasek
9. Sidney Crosby
10. Ray Bourque

Fancy seeing lists like this even if I don’t agree with Howe being placed above Gretzky. Atleast you have placed emphasis on two-way play which is also why I assume you have Beliveau 5th. Where do you see McDavid finishing?

 

[authentic]

I place Hull Sr. over Béliveau, and Richard right behind.

Yeah Hull over Beliveau for me as well. Richard I can’t say as players who peaked before 1950 are harder to do an objective ranking of.

 

[Midnight Judges]

What about Datsyuk? He didn't even make the forum's top 100 list.

With 15 players from the 1950s (born between 1924 and 1932), and only 6 from the Ovechkin/Crosby generation (born from '77 to '87), despite the talent pool being several times larger, it's reasonable to expect either A) the forum will significantly change its rankings; or B) the rankings are heavily biased for players of generations past.

Maybe the course correction gets Datsyuk in?

 

[MadLuke]

As I remember, he took a year off and the Habs didn't win the cup that year.

The cup being quite binary and noisy, is not a bad but a bit limited argument.

MTL went in the regular season (larger sample size),

If we look at mlt p% or that era,
.605, .622, .692, .769, .635, .706, .794, .825, .806, .719, .669, .664

It is relatively easy if one would take a guess thinking Dryden was great when he start to play for them, when he retired and when he took an off year. How much of it is timing coincidence or a Dryden effect... but it is easy to see why at the time people too of him as really important.

montreal in
1973: Best defensive team by far, 24 less goals allowed than anyone else, 71.9% league average goal allowed
1974: middle of the pack defensive team, 6 teams allowed less goals, 96% of the league average goal allowed
1975: Top 4 defense, 82% of the goal allowed.

From 1971-1979 Mtl was a
.922, 2.24 team with Dryden in net
.900, 2.83 team with Dryden was not net (a bit higher when it was neither HHOF Vachon in net, who was solid for MTL but played only 48 games during that time)

Considering how better the result seem to be with him, the narrative that he was not a pure product of his team seem fair and there is probably a healthy in between him being the best of all time because he arguably had the best results of all-time at the position (for the amount of years played) and a pure product of the team.

Looking so-so in intl competition when he could have been judged versus goaltender having also a great team in from of them or other great goaltender playing for the same team Canada, does not help him in that regard at all.

 

[jigglysquishy]

With 15 players from the 1950s (born between 1924 and 1932), and only 6 from the Ovechkin/Crosby generation (born from '77 to '87), despite the talent pool being several times larger, it's reasonable to expect either A) the forum will significantly change its rankings; or B) the rankings are heavily biased for players of generations past.

Maybe the course correction gets Datsyuk in?

You're welcome to participate instead of just insulting everyone.

 

[Professor What]

Fancy seeing lists like this even if I don’t agree with Howe being placed above Gretzky. Atleast you have placed emphasis on two-way play which is also why I assume you have Beliveau 5th. Where do you see McDavid finishing?

He could finish as high as fifth. You're right that I do like two-way play, but if McDavid keeps up the pace he's been on, it might not matter.

With 15 players from the 1950s (born between 1924 and 1932), and only 6 from the Ovechkin/Crosby generation (born from '77 to '87), despite the talent pool being several times larger, it's reasonable to expect either A) the forum will significantly change its rankings; or B) the rankings are heavily biased for players of generations past.

Maybe the course correction gets Datsyuk in?

Even if I grant you the "course correction," Datsyuk shouldn't be sniffing anyone's top 10 list.

 

[carjackmalone]

What’s amazing is that there isn’t an American born player on anyone’s list

 

[jigglysquishy]

What’s amazing is that there isn’t an American born player on anyone’s list

There isn't an argument for an American in the top 25, let alone top 10.

The best Americans (Chelios and Brimsek) are going to sit in the 35-60 range.

 

[MadLuke]

He could finish as high as fifth.

Would not close the door yet at opening a vs Mario debate at some point, 1 Art ross to tie him in that regard, already 2 historic playoff run under his belt, 2 historic Art Ross win, would he to age really well, who knows.... Would I bet he has less than 10% chance to make a debate by retirement.... not sure.

Maybe only Gretzky as an clearly impossible to make up advance over him.

 

[carjackmalone]

What about Leetch

 

[jigglysquishy]

What about Leetch

Zero argument for Leetch in top 25 all time. I don't even have Leetch in my top 25 defensemen nor top 100 players.

 

[authentic]

Zero argument for Leetch in top 25 all time. I don't even have Leetch in my top 25 defensemen nor top 100 players.

I’d be interested to see all you have ahead of him

 

[jigglysquishy]

I’d be interested to see all you have ahead of him

1. Bobby Orr
2. Doug Harvey
3. Ray Bourque
4. Eddie Shore
5. Nicklas Lidström
6. Denis Potvin
7. Slava Fetisov
8. Red Kelly
9. Chris Chelios
10. Larry Robinson
11. King Clancy
12. Brad Park
13. Sprague Cleghorn
14. Paul Coffey
15. Pierre Pilotte
16. Tim Horton
17. Earl Seibert
18. Chris Pronger
19. Scott Stevens
20. Al MacInnis
21. Dit Clapper
22. Zdeno Chara
23. Mark Howe
24. Borje Salming
25. Erik Karlsson
26. Bill Gadsby
27. Duncan Keith
28. Eddie Gerard
29. Bill Quackenbush
30. Serge Savard
31. Victor Hedman
32. Drew Doughty
33. Valeri Vasiliev
34. Guy Lapointe
35. Brian Leetch


I'm going to be lower on him then most, but I will point out that in the last defenseman project (2011) he finished 23rd and has since been overtaken by several players.

Several active players will overtake him shortly too.

 

[authentic]

1. Bobby Orr
2. Doug Harvey
3. Ray Bourque
4. Eddie Shore
5. Nicklas Lidström
6. Denis Potvin
7. Slava Fetisov
8. Red Kelly
9. Chris Chelios
10. Larry Robinson
11. King Clancy
12. Brad Park
13. Sprague Cleghorn
14. Paul Coffey
15. Pierre Pilotte
16. Tim Horton
17. Earl Seibert
18. Chris Pronger
19. Scott Stevens
20. Al MacInnis
21. Dit Clapper
22. Zdeno Chara
23. Mark Howe
24. Borje Salming
25. Erik Karlsson
26. Bill Gadsby
27. Duncan Keith
28. Eddie Gerard
29. Bill Quackenbush
30. Serge Savard
31. Victor Hedman
32. Drew Doughty
33. Valeri Vasiliev
34. Guy Lapointe
35. Brian Leetch


I'm going to be lower on him then most, but I will point out that in the last defenseman project (2011) he finished 23rd and has since been overtaken by several players.

Several active players will overtake him shortly too.

Yeah I suppose I wouldn’t argue too strongly with that list, on another note I always forget Chelios is considered top 10 by some, I always thought of him as more of a top 20, seeing him ahead of Robinson there gave me pause for a moment.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Yeah I suppose I wouldn’t argue too strongly with that list, on another note I always forget Chelios is considered top 10 by some, I always thought of him as more of a top 20, seeing him ahead of Robinson there gave me pause for a moment.

Chelios was tremendous. He gets stereotyped as old, slow, and violent, but he was able to adapt in three different teams to be a top defenseman in the world. His longevity is bonkers too, with elite level play across 20 years.

He could bring the offense too, finishing third in points on a very strong 1989 Habs. But when he was expected to stay back and shutdown (Red Wings) he did so.