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Top 10 best forwards post lockout

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since the LAST lockout:

McDavid
Kucherov
MacKinnon
Draisaitl
Matthews

Between the 2005 and 2013 lockouts:

Crosby
Ovechkin
Malkin
Datsyuk
Kane

Between 1994 and 2005 lockouts:

Jagr
Forsberg
Sakic
Selanne
Lindros

Previous to that lockout, as far back as Wayne"

Gretzky
Lemieux
Yzerman
Messier
Bossy

* totally cheating with Kane, as he is that generation, yet his best seasons came after the last lockout.
* Lemieux was still the best forward for several seasons in the Jagr era.

but ya, using lockouts as eras, those MIGHT be the top TWENTY forwards since Wayne came along.
 
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Golden_Jet said:
Art Ross, Hart and Ted Lindsey trump a Calder at age 25.
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When Connor is gone or out for a full season and he still does it, ill jump on board the Leon train. I think he will have the chance to prove it starting in 26-27.

And I dont think individual awards define a player. Obviously im looknig at Panarins full body of work. 77 points as a rookie, 74 sophomore and never gonig below ppg after that with 6 80+ point seasons, 4 90+, and 1 120+. Doing that as a young player with Kane, meh Blue Jackets teams, and being the top dog in NYC with meh linemates.

Leon has always done it with McDavid or getting the weaker matchups when theyre separated.
 
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landy said:
When Connor is gone or out for a full season and he still does it, ill jump on board the Leon train. I think he will have the chance to prove it starting in 26-27.

And I dont think individual awards define a player. Obviously im looknig at Panarins full body of work. 77 points as a rookie, 74 sophomore and never gonig below ppg after that with 6 80+ point seasons, 4 90+, and 1 120+. Doing that as a young player with Kane, meh Blue Jackets teams, and being the top dog in NYC with meh linemates.

Leon has always done it with McDavid or getting the weaker matchups when theyre separated.
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6- 100+ seasons vs 1
 
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landy said:
Panarin > Draisaitl for me until Draisaitl does anything by himself. Were seeing how far Rantanen can fall. Same would happen for Leon if he actually saw 1D matchups.
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I respect your opinion, but I think Draisaitl has already proven his worth without McDavid as he's between 1.5 and 2 PPG in games without McDavid. Rantanen isn't comparable to Draisaitl. Besides, Draisaitl plays and has played with bottom-six wingers. That offsets any reduction in quality comp when he's away from McDavid.
 
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Golden_Jet said:
6- 100+ seasons vs 1
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6 100+ seasons with McDavid on the ice for 50% of them and the other 50% getting weaker matchups.

Duke74 said:
I respect your opinion, but I think Draisaitl has already proven his worth without McDavid as he's between 1.5 and 2 PPG in games without McDavid. Rantanen isn't comparable to Draisaitl. Besides, Draisaitl plays and has played with bottom-six wingers. That offsets any reduction in quality comp when he's away from McDavid.
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Leon Draisaitl has 22 goals, 42 assists and a plus-minus of +4 in 60 games without Connor McDavid in his career.

Assuming AI is right there, that is not a large enough sample size to make a final hypothesis there. And going off those numbers, he is an 87 point player without McDavid then...

50% of Leon's time is played with McDavid, who I am guessing you will say is the best player in the world. You can give Leon Pat Maroon and John Scott for the other 50% and he'd still be a 100 point player because of that initial 50%.
 
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landy said:
6 100+ seasons with McDavid on the ice for 50% of them and the other 50% getting weaker matchups.


Leon Draisaitl has 22 goals, 42 assists and a plus-minus of +4 in 60 games without Connor McDavid in his career.

Assuming AI is right there, that is not a large enough sample size to make a final hypothesis there. And going off those numbers, he is an 87 point player without McDavid then...

50% of Leon's time is played with McDavid, who I am guessing you will say is the best player in the world. You can give Leon Pat Maroon and John Scott for the other 50% and he'd still be a 100 point player because of that initial 50%.
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That sample includes his rookie and sophomore seasons before he broke out. I'd search for stats from 2018 onwards. It's unfortunate that as long as McDavid is around, Draisaitl will get no respect from some people. The only way that he can prove himself to some people is on a team barren of talent or with McDavid missing most of the year. As an Oiler fan, neither of these scenarios is ideal.
 
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villacco said:
Really easy choices for 9 players. They all belong

Maybe Joe Thornton?
Edit: Kopitar or Bergeron are the easy answer
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Kopitar is the easy answer as he is 5th in points since the 05-06 season and has an excellent 2 way game.

He is behind Kane, then come Stamkos, Thornton, Giroux, Tavares and McDavid.

Bergeron BTW is 16th in points just behind Mack.

Barkov is 49th.

my list as of right now would be

Crosby
McDavid
Ovi
Malkin
Kane
Kopitar
Mack
Draisatl
Kuch
Stamkos/Bergeron

Thornton, Giroux and Tavares are top 10 scorers knocked out on my list.

Maybe Stamkos as well.
 
Dingo said:
since the LAST lockout:

McDavid
Kucherov
MacKinnon
Draisaitl
Matthews

Between the 2005 and 2013 lockouts:

Crosby
Ovechkin
Malkin
Datsyuk
Kane

Between 1994 and 2005 lockouts:

Jagr
Forsberg
Sakic
Selanne
Lindros

Previous to that lockout, as far back as Wayne"

Gretzky
Lemieux
Yzerman
Messier
Bossy

* totally cheating with Kane, as he is that generation, yet his best seasons came after the last lockout.
* Lemieux was still the best forward for several seasons in the Jagr era.

but ya, using lockouts as eras, those MIGHT be the top TWENTY forwards since Wayne came along.
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This is the correct answer.

It's wild people don't have Datsyuk on their top 10 list. Maybe too young to see him play. One of the best 200 foot players to ever play the game.
 
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wetcoast said:
Kopitar is the easy answer as he is 5th in points since the 05-06 season and has an excellent 2 way game.

He is behind Kane, then come Stamkos, Thornton, Giroux, Tavares and McDavid.

Bergeron BTW is 16th in points just behind Mack.

Barkov is 49th.

my list as of right now would be

Crosby
McDavid
Ovi
Malkin
Kane
Kopitar
Mack
Draisatl
Kuch
Stamkos/Bergeron

Thornton, Giroux and Tavares are top 10 scorers knocked out on my list.

Maybe Stamkos as well.
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No Matthews for his peak seasons? Otherwise I roughly agree. I think peak should be considered, as well as career value.
 
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Giroux led the NHL in scoring from 2010-2020, has 3 top 5 Hart and 3 top 5 Art Ross Finishes. He should probably be on there over Stamkos and Panarin.
 
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WhyYouHaveToBeMad said:
drai has been carrying mcdavid this year. you obviously don't watch the oilers.
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Inaccurate. McDavid is actually scoring at a higher ESP/PG than his 22-23 historic season. Leon is scoring equally between PP/with McDavid/without McDavid. Obviously PP and with McDavid, it is easy to lean on McDavid being the reason. He takes all the attention and does all the heavy lifting while Leon sits in his office waiting for a pass. Hes an elite finisher, no doubt there.

Then the % without McDavid on the ice with him, who do you think Makar/Slavin/Fox/Doughty gets matched up against. McDavid or line 2?

Thats what I thought. Without McDavid in the lineup, Leon is still slightly above a PPG player. Still amazing at roughly 87 pt pace, but a solid 1-2 tiers below the big dogs in that hypothetical world where McDavid leaves the Oilers.
 
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Hippasus said:
No Matthews for his peak seasons? Otherwise I roughly agree. I think peak should be considered, as well as career value.
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It's a tight top 10 and arguably Joe Thornton has a better peak and he is outside looking in as i considered both regular season and individual performance.

Even Stamkos and his overall resume is ahead of AM as he is only 27, give him several more years and he might bump Stamkos/Bergeron for 10th but he really doesn't have a case yet IMO.
 
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landy said:
Inaccurate. McDavid is actually scoring at a higher ESP/PG than his 22-23 historic season. Leon is scoring equally between PP/with McDavid/without McDavid. Obviously PP and with McDavid, it is easy to lean on McDavid being the reason. He takes all the attention and does all the heavy lifting while Leon sits in his office waiting for a pass. Hes an elite finisher, no doubt there.

Then the % without McDavid on the ice with him, who do you think Makar/Slavin/Fox/Doughty gets matched up against. McDavid or line 2?

Thats what I thought. Without McDavid in the lineup, Leon is still slightly above a PPG player. Still amazing at roughly 87 pt pace, but a solid 1-2 tiers below the big dogs in that hypothetical world where McDavid leaves the Oilers.
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Duke74 already said it in post 61, you're counting pre-breakout Draisaitl in ascribing to him an 87 point average without McDavid. As a tandem they're somewhat akin to Crosby and Malkin over their careers: very good both independently and together. McDavid and Draisaitl just have slightly better chemistry.
 
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Hippasus said:
Duke74 already said it in post 61, you're counting pre-breakout Draisaitl in ascribing to him an 87 point average without McDavid. As a tandem they're somewhat akin to Crosby and Malkin over their careers: very good both independently and together. McDavid and Draisaitl just have slightly better chemistry.
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No the 87 point pace is based on 60 total games spread out through both of their careers where 97 was out of the lineup. Its usually in stretches of a handful of games in a row only. We have literally never seen a full season or even a large stretch of games of Leon alone.

It it not close to the 71/87. They were true centers both captaining their own lines. You can argue Malkin saw the weaker matchups and then they played pp together, but over the course of the their careers, 97/29 have played 50%ish ES time together. That makes Leon a glorified winger more than a 1/2 center punch.
 
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landy said:
No the 87 point pace is based on 60 total games spread out through both of their careers where 97 was out of the lineup. Its usually in stretches of a handful of games in a row only. We have literally never seen a full season or even a large stretch of games of Leon alone.

It it not close to the 71/87. They were true centers both captaining their own lines. You can argue Malkin saw the weaker matchups and then they played pp together, but over the course of the their careers, 97/29 have played 50%ish ES time together. That makes Leon a glorified winger more than a 1/2 center punch.
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Leon is clearly a beast in his own right but he’s the biggest beneficiary of a regular linemate since Esposito when it comes to boosting point totals, but still elite enough in his own right that McDavid clearly benefits from him as well just as Orr did from Esposito. I think Draisaitl would still post very elite numbers without McDavid.
 
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