Dingo
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- Jul 13, 2018
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jagrLet’s say no Mario, no Gretz- who else would be there from the earlier period?
forsberg
sakic
nobody else really has a shot to crack this top 10, imo. Maybe Selanne.
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In the meantime, feel free to join our Discord ServerjagrLet’s say no Mario, no Gretz- who else would be there from the earlier period?
Apparently, Leon Draisaitl doesn't exist. Panarin doesn't belong on that list.1. Crosby
2. MacKinnon
3. McDavid
4. Kucherov
5. Kane
6. Ovechkin
7. Malkin
9. Panarin
10. Matthews
Panarin > Draisaitl for me until Draisaitl does anything by himself. Were seeing how far Rantanen can fall. Same would happen for Leon if he actually saw 1D matchups.Apparently, Leon Draisaitl doesn't exist. Panarin doesn't belong on that list.
Art Ross, Hart and Ted Lindsey trump a Calder at age 25.Panarin > Draisaitl for me until Draisaitl does anything by himself. Were seeing how far Rantanen can fall. Same would happen for Leon if he actually saw 1D matchups.
When Connor is gone or out for a full season and he still does it, ill jump on board the Leon train. I think he will have the chance to prove it starting in 26-27.Art Ross, Hart and Ted Lindsey trump a Calder at age 25.
6- 100+ seasons vs 1When Connor is gone or out for a full season and he still does it, ill jump on board the Leon train. I think he will have the chance to prove it starting in 26-27.
And I dont think individual awards define a player. Obviously im looknig at Panarins full body of work. 77 points as a rookie, 74 sophomore and never gonig below ppg after that with 6 80+ point seasons, 4 90+, and 1 120+. Doing that as a young player with Kane, meh Blue Jackets teams, and being the top dog in NYC with meh linemates.
Leon has always done it with McDavid or getting the weaker matchups when theyre separated.
I respect your opinion, but I think Draisaitl has already proven his worth without McDavid as he's between 1.5 and 2 PPG in games without McDavid. Rantanen isn't comparable to Draisaitl. Besides, Draisaitl plays and has played with bottom-six wingers. That offsets any reduction in quality comp when he's away from McDavid.Panarin > Draisaitl for me until Draisaitl does anything by himself. Were seeing how far Rantanen can fall. Same would happen for Leon if he actually saw 1D matchups.
Datsyuk over those 3.Barkov, Bergeron, Kopitar.
6 100+ seasons with McDavid on the ice for 50% of them and the other 50% getting weaker matchups.6- 100+ seasons vs 1
Leon Draisaitl has 22 goals, 42 assists and a plus-minus of +4 in 60 games without Connor McDavid in his career.I respect your opinion, but I think Draisaitl has already proven his worth without McDavid as he's between 1.5 and 2 PPG in games without McDavid. Rantanen isn't comparable to Draisaitl. Besides, Draisaitl plays and has played with bottom-six wingers. That offsets any reduction in quality comp when he's away from McDavid.
That sample includes his rookie and sophomore seasons before he broke out. I'd search for stats from 2018 onwards. It's unfortunate that as long as McDavid is around, Draisaitl will get no respect from some people. The only way that he can prove himself to some people is on a team barren of talent or with McDavid missing most of the year. As an Oiler fan, neither of these scenarios is ideal.6 100+ seasons with McDavid on the ice for 50% of them and the other 50% getting weaker matchups.
Leon Draisaitl has 22 goals, 42 assists and a plus-minus of +4 in 60 games without Connor McDavid in his career.
Assuming AI is right there, that is not a large enough sample size to make a final hypothesis there. And going off those numbers, he is an 87 point player without McDavid then...
50% of Leon's time is played with McDavid, who I am guessing you will say is the best player in the world. You can give Leon Pat Maroon and John Scott for the other 50% and he'd still be a 100 point player because of that initial 50%.
Kopitar is the easy answer as he is 5th in points since the 05-06 season and has an excellent 2 way game.Really easy choices for 9 players. They all belong
Maybe Joe Thornton?
Edit: Kopitar or Bergeron are the easy answer
since the LAST lockout:
McDavid
Kucherov
MacKinnon
Draisaitl
Matthews
Between the 2005 and 2013 lockouts:
Crosby
Ovechkin
Malkin
Datsyuk
Kane
Between 1994 and 2005 lockouts:
Jagr
Forsberg
Sakic
Selanne
Lindros
Previous to that lockout, as far back as Wayne"
Gretzky
Lemieux
Yzerman
Messier
Bossy
* totally cheating with Kane, as he is that generation, yet his best seasons came after the last lockout.
* Lemieux was still the best forward for several seasons in the Jagr era.
but ya, using lockouts as eras, those MIGHT be the top TWENTY forwards since Wayne came along.
Sakic, Forsberg, Jagr, a few others are arguable.Let’s say no Mario, no Gretz- who else would be there from the earlier period?
No Matthews for his peak seasons? Otherwise I roughly agree. I think peak should be considered, as well as career value.Kopitar is the easy answer as he is 5th in points since the 05-06 season and has an excellent 2 way game.
He is behind Kane, then come Stamkos, Thornton, Giroux, Tavares and McDavid.
Bergeron BTW is 16th in points just behind Mack.
Barkov is 49th.
my list as of right now would be
Crosby
McDavid
Ovi
Malkin
Kane
Kopitar
Mack
Draisatl
Kuch
Stamkos/Bergeron
Thornton, Giroux and Tavares are top 10 scorers knocked out on my list.
Maybe Stamkos as well.
drai has been carrying mcdavid this year. you obviously don't watch the oilers.Panarin > Draisaitl for me until Draisaitl does anything by himself. Were seeing how far Rantanen can fall. Same would happen for Leon if he actually saw 1D matchups.
Inaccurate. McDavid is actually scoring at a higher ESP/PG than his 22-23 historic season. Leon is scoring equally between PP/with McDavid/without McDavid. Obviously PP and with McDavid, it is easy to lean on McDavid being the reason. He takes all the attention and does all the heavy lifting while Leon sits in his office waiting for a pass. Hes an elite finisher, no doubt there.drai has been carrying mcdavid this year. you obviously don't watch the oilers.
It's a tight top 10 and arguably Joe Thornton has a better peak and he is outside looking in as i considered both regular season and individual performance.No Matthews for his peak seasons? Otherwise I roughly agree. I think peak should be considered, as well as career value.
Duke74 already said it in post 61, you're counting pre-breakout Draisaitl in ascribing to him an 87 point average without McDavid. As a tandem they're somewhat akin to Crosby and Malkin over their careers: very good both independently and together. McDavid and Draisaitl just have slightly better chemistry.Inaccurate. McDavid is actually scoring at a higher ESP/PG than his 22-23 historic season. Leon is scoring equally between PP/with McDavid/without McDavid. Obviously PP and with McDavid, it is easy to lean on McDavid being the reason. He takes all the attention and does all the heavy lifting while Leon sits in his office waiting for a pass. Hes an elite finisher, no doubt there.
Then the % without McDavid on the ice with him, who do you think Makar/Slavin/Fox/Doughty gets matched up against. McDavid or line 2?
Thats what I thought. Without McDavid in the lineup, Leon is still slightly above a PPG player. Still amazing at roughly 87 pt pace, but a solid 1-2 tiers below the big dogs in that hypothetical world where McDavid leaves the Oilers.
No the 87 point pace is based on 60 total games spread out through both of their careers where 97 was out of the lineup. Its usually in stretches of a handful of games in a row only. We have literally never seen a full season or even a large stretch of games of Leon alone.Duke74 already said it in post 61, you're counting pre-breakout Draisaitl in ascribing to him an 87 point average without McDavid. As a tandem they're somewhat akin to Crosby and Malkin over their careers: very good both independently and together. McDavid and Draisaitl just have slightly better chemistry.
Giroux led the NHL in scoring from 2010-2020, has 3 top 5 Hart and 3 top 5 Art Ross Finishes. He should probably be on there over Stamkos and Panarin.
No the 87 point pace is based on 60 total games spread out through both of their careers where 97 was out of the lineup. Its usually in stretches of a handful of games in a row only. We have literally never seen a full season or even a large stretch of games of Leon alone.
It it not close to the 71/87. They were true centers both captaining their own lines. You can argue Malkin saw the weaker matchups and then they played pp together, but over the course of the their careers, 97/29 have played 50%ish ES time together. That makes Leon a glorified winger more than a 1/2 center punch.