Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo - Part II

[True Blue]

quinn is starting to grind on me.

I can see where demanding accountability can cause irritation when enforced.

let him play.

Again, seems to me it is up to him. If he does what the coaching staff wants him to do, he will play. If he willingly chooses not to, then he won't. You say "Let him Play". Management says "Let him listen".

 

[True Blue]

I also said there were a few things he didn’t do well. And bad discipline is probably one of the main things that Quinn scratched him for.

I would wager you are correct as far as it being one of the issues.

 

[McRanger]

Smith has been scratched more than enough time. Quinn is a pretty good communicator. He has clearly communicated with is expected and what is non-negotiable. Apparently somewhere within there, DeAngelo has either a) not done what Quinn communicated to him he needs to do or b) tried to negotiate the non-negotiable.

I would doubt that.

I think that anyone who does not listen to what is demanded of them , finds themselves scratched. Clearly DeAngelo either understood and choose to do his thing anyway or did not listen when the lesson was being taught.

Quinn is building a culture. Part of that culture is what he communicates to the players about what they need to do and they way they need to play. If ADA has decided at times this season that those rules do not apply to him, Quinn has to show that he holds people accountable. Building a culture on a team like this is pretty important. Or rebuilding, that is.

I understand your point. This is my point: building a culture that values or prioritizes the wrong things is not a winning solution, in other words building a culture that values or prioritizes "whatever the hell is in Quinn's head" over playing your best lineup is not a winning solution.

I get why everyone is hung up on culture. I do. The country club dark years tortured all of us old enough to remember. But look at '94. The Rangers culture in '94 was chaotic. Keenan was already trying to find another job. There was massive roster turnover and the "character" guys they brought in were, for the most part, a pretty clear downgrade from the players they traded. And in the end they won mainly because Brian Leetch, who basically did a two month long Bobby Orr impersonation, was the most skilled player on the ice and we were lucky Smith didn't trade him for Chelios or whoever else had more "grit" or whatever because the drought would be approaching its centennial.

So I don't know what kind of a culture the Rangers need to win. I dont know if we need the chaos of the '94 Rangers , or the even more chaotic drug fueled lunacy of the '86 Mets. I dont know if we need to be more "understated Yankees" or more "free spirited Red Sox". Or maybe we need the leadership of a bumbling hill person like Eli Manning, simply being too stupid to realize he should lose better teams, leading us. I don't know.

What I do know is we wont win anything without a skilled lineup, and that skill, or more specifically on ice production, should be a massive priority. I know that I would, in a heartbeat, take an in-his-prime Sergei Zubov on this team even if I knew he was going to be blowing smoke rings in our rookies faces in the locker room.

 

[True Blue]

I understand your point. This is my point: building a culture that values or prioritizes the wrong things is not a winning solution, in other words building a culture that values or prioritizes "whatever the hell is in Quinn's head" over playing your best lineup is not a winning solution.

I get it. And your viewpoint is valid. I do agree with the sentiment that establishing the expectation and having everyone adhere to it is important. And will continue to become more important as the team gets even younger and continues to go through process.

 

[Rempe73]

I can see where demanding accountability can cause irritation when enforced.

Again, seems to me it is up to him. If he does what the coaching staff wants him to do, he will play. If he willingly chooses not to, then he won't. You say "Let him Play". Management says "Let him listen".

I’m one of his biggest fans, but if he can’t simply listen, and is stupid enough to ruin his career over dumb sh**, then so be it. I’m still kind of 50-50 on it, where my default is “let him play until he shows he’s beyond immature,” rather than “sit him until he shows he can be mature.” Because he’s too talented to scratch him for small things.

The other argument is, we don’t even know if not listening is the reason he was scratched so many times. We just don’t know.

 

[Miamipuck]

I dunno, nobody likes Cody but his sales numbers are better than John's. But he often walks into walls and wears loud suits to the office. He also tends to forget where he is.

Tanner's problem is that he's not an account supervisor and is being asked to be one.

Brock is not long for this company.

We're stuck with Bill and Ted for a few more years until they retire.

All the more reason to hope John can work it out.

Just gotta hope that anti-John conspiracy doesn't last long.

I was in sales, high end sales for a long time and have seen many a big producer shit-canned for various reasons, some of which were not toting the company line or being more trouble than they're worth.

There comes a point where no matter how good you are something, if trouble comes with that talent, there's only so much people will tolerate.

 

[McRanger]

I was in sales, high end sales for a long time and have seen many a big producer ****-canned for various reasons, some of which were not toting the company line or being more trouble than they're worth.

There comes a point where no matter how good you are something, if trouble comes with that talent, there's only so much people will tolerate.

Did they typically outlast the guys that never made any sales?

The point wasn’t that being good at your job protects you indefinitely. The point was that actually being good at your job is usually the most important factor.

Except in sports where we love and root for the plucky guy who sucks and hate the guy who’s significantly better but is an underachiever and relish in the latter being benched. I think it’s bizarre and funny, but trust me I have no interest in revisiting the argument again.

 

[Kovalev27]

This is the same org that buried Keith Yandle buried Shattenkirk for most of the year. They don’t know how to handle skill on the back end. They prefer grunts like girardi and Lindgren.

I have little confidence in their ability to develop talent and then actually recognize it and let them play to their strengths.

There’s zero reason this kid shouldn’t be playing 20 mins a night with rope to make a few mistakes here and there. He has none. It hinders his offense no doubt in my mind.

 

[mrmovies779]

I have little confidence in their ability to develop talent and then actually recognize it and let them play to their strengths

This is a bs myth that needs to die.

 

[True Blue]

This is the same org that buried Keith Yandle buried Shattenkirk for most of the year. They don’t know how to handle skill on the back end. They prefer grunts like girardi and Lindgren.

Oh, wow. This happened much faster than I thought it would yesterday. Let the howling commence about preferring the caveman to the prodigy.

And Shattenkirk deserved to be buried this year.

There’s zero reason this kid shouldn’t be playing 20 mins a night with rope to make a few mistakes here and there. He has none. It hinders his offense no doubt in my mind.

This has been regurgitated quite a bit. ADA not playing has nothing to do with mistakes he makes while doing what the coaches demands. It has to do with him not doing what is demanded of him. He has been either consciously making that choice or is a moron and does not understand what is being told to his face over and over and over again.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

This is a bs myth that needs to die.

When Skjei is the best player you've discovered and developed in what 7-8 years when Mcdonagh broke through

 

[Edge]

Not doing another debate about the Rangers drafting and development again.

I feel like 90 percent of the board gets it. But its the hill the other 10 percent are going to die on, even if they don't realize they're on the wrong hill. And there's nothing, literally nothing on this planet that is going to shake them.

 

[Rempe73]

Not doing another debate about the Rangers drafting and development again.

I feel like 90 percent of the board gets it. But its the hill the other 10 percent are going to die on, even if they don't realize they're on the wrong hill. And there's nothing, literally nothing on this planet that is going to shake them.

What is your opinion on it? I’m neutral on this. I think we’ve done a very good job developing guys like Kreider, Hayes, and Zibanejad, especially since we haven’t had as many high draft picks as other teams. And I understand that most picks don’t even make the NHL, but I’m not sure how the Rangers compare to other organizations when it comes to this.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

Zib was developed already, when he came here. Kreids, Hayes, Step, Hags, Fast, G, Sauer and so. I think we do a good job once we get the kids.

Getting the right kids is where it's at.

 

[Sarge13]

I give the team alot of crap for their scouting but they're development track record has been good.

In contrast you have no idea what a nightmare the years before 2005 were, I mean absolutely brutal in both regards.

 

[Kovalev27]

Not doing another debate about the Rangers drafting and development again.

I feel like 90 percent of the board gets it. But its the hill the other 10 percent are going to die on, even if they don't realize they're on the wrong hill. And there's nothing, literally nothing on this planet that is going to shake them.

The organization and not drafted and or developed any star players whatsoever outside of a fluke in Henrik Lundqvist in at least 30 years but fans that don’t trust management to magically all of a sudden start doing so are the ones that don’t get it? Ok there

And I mean NONE. Not some not a few NONE.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

The organization and not drafted and or developed any star players whatsoever outside of a fluke in Henrik Lundqvist in at least 30 years but fans that don’t trust management to magically all of a sudden start doing so are the ones that don’t get it? Ok there

And I mean NONE. Not some not a few NONE.

Most elite talent is drafted in positions where we ultimately don't pick. Considering where we have been picking, you have to admit this team has drafted and developed a number of quality players.

Gorton has been trying to get us in that top-5. He's made the effort. Hopefully this year will be different.

 

[Edge]

The organization and not drafted and or developed any star players whatsoever outside of a fluke in Henrik Lundqvist in at least 30 years but fans that don’t trust management to magically all of a sudden start doing so are the ones that don’t get it? Ok there

And I mean NONE. Not some not a few NONE.

Every single point you just re-hashed has already been addressed multiple times --- with some agreement, some disagreement, some context and some fact checking. We've discussed the subtle layers between all or nothing, we've discussed track records, we've brought up other teams as comparisons, we've acknowledge who was better and who wasn't.

Long story short, it's all been done.

 

[Edge]

What is your opinion on it? I’m neutral on this. I think we’ve done a very good job developing guys like Kreider, Hayes, and Zibanejad, especially since we haven’t had as many high draft picks as other teams. And I understand that most picks don’t even make the NHL, but I’m not sure how the Rangers compare to other organizations when it comes to this.

It's all available in the Draft thread, the roster building thread, and probably a few others.

Not going to drag it into the ADA thread too. It really doesn't need to be in multiple threads over and over.

 

[Kovalev27]

Most elite talent is drafted in positions where we ultimately don't pick. Considering where we have been picking, you have to admit this team has drafted and developed a number of quality players.

Gorton has been trying to get us in that top-5. He's made the effort. Hopefully this year will be different.

That’s a cop out. 30 years my friend. We’ve drafted plenty of busts in that time. We have not found a giroux at the end of a draft. We haven’t drafted a John Carlson we take a Del Zotto. We have had plenty of opportunities and this staff in particular has had plenty of opportunities to draft elite talent and has failed. So to insinuate that fans that don’t just wave Pom poms for Sather Gorton and clark for their drafting abilities “don’t get it” is rather pompous and just as arrogant as the culture that has led to this drafting history. They need some home runs desperately and when we actually see on in a Rangers sweater producing as Brooks alluded to then we can revisit. But i get it just fine. Show me some legit star players every once in a decade.

 

[Kovalev27]

But here’s the other part when they do get a prospect like DeAngelo with all the ability in the world look how they handle him.

Is kreider really where he should be? He’s got all the talent to be a 40 goal player every year. Hasn’t hit 30 yet. Who’s fault is that?

Skjei has regressed. Came here on fire spends some time in the .Org and now is maybe a number 4 guy. Nothing special.

buchnevich lost

Vesey comes in the hottest prospect in hockey 20’games in he’s a third liner at best.

So when we do get these talented guys what do we do with them? I’m very concerned about how we manage DeAngelo. Does he just never reach his ability because he’s got no rope to work with here or doesn’t get the mins to shine.

 

[LORDE]

I don't think Vesey was supposed to be anything very special... a good FREE asset. That's what the big push was all about.

Kreider also not sure he was going to be a 40 goal scorer... he's got a nice wrist shot but no slapper... no one timer. He's got speed and size but not much agility.

Buch doesn't have the size really to be much more than he is.

Skjei has regressed... that is true. But that has to be on the player as well as the developers right? He's not exonerated.

I guess 'who's fault' might be better served by asking "Who's expectations were too high?"

I tend to agree that we need to draft some elite. Maybe we did w #9 last draft, maybe we get one this draft. Maybe someone we picked later turns out to be that. I dunno. It's harder and harder to get ELITE outside of top 2-3 picks and we haven't had one.

 

[Edge]

Can we at least have this conversation in a single contained thread, instead of in multiple threads?

I don't care if it's in the draft thread, or roster building, or it's own sticky.

 

[Irishguy42]

Can we at least have this conversation in a single contained thread, instead of in multiple threads?

I don't care if it's in the draft thread, or roster building, or it's own sticky.

You...uh....new here?

 

[Edge]

You...uh....new here?

Like asking for the moon and stars aint it?