Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo - Part II

[Edge]

Didn't say any do that. I believe they are all wrong to do. It's an opinion on how a team should be run.

Would legitimately love to see how that turns out.

I'm putting my money on disastrous, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

 

[Edge]

If i may reference the NFL for a bit, look at what that coke head Adam Gase did in miami(sorry jets fans). He shipped of the Dolphins 2 best offensive players(Landry and Ajayi), because they disagreed with him and he wanted to "build a culture". Then the offense sucked and he got fired.... Once again sorry Jets fans. Heres a funny video of his intro press conference:

There's also a difference between the rope given to core, star players, and 23 year olds who are battling for a spot in the lineup.

Guys like Messier, Leetch, Jagr, Lundqvist, etc. don't necessarily hang on every word the coach is saying.

But ADA is not in that neighborhood.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I honestly think the Rangers can live with the mistakes if they feel he's working to meet other expectations.

I don't think it's a black and white issue, where mistake-free hockey is expected and they are trying to turn him into a defensive stalwart. I honestly don't.

I get the feeling that Quinn is taking his disdain for an entire team that has lacked an adequate compete level (especially on the defensive side of the ice) on his defensive corp. At least, thats what I read into the Lindgren recall. It's a chance to get a look at a young prospect, but also a wake up call to the entire defense that they need to carry an element of ruggedness to their game.

When it comes to DeAngelo, it's an interesting situation because he is one of the guy on the defense that has shown some level of battle, although it can be argued that hasn't exactly been channeled in the right direction.

 

[True Blue]

I believe that he is trying to do everything Quinn has demanded of him...

Guys have short comings, its natural. His weak point is defensive reads, but everygame i see him get better at it.. I think he gets judged unfairly, because of his reputation as a offensive guy. His defense is not markedly worse than just about everyone of our defensemen.

Trying and doing are two different things. If he has been told you need to do X and he decided that he would rather do X.1, then that is not trying. That is changing what you have been told.

 

[Off Sides]

Quinn has all the other prospects devloping so well too.

This is going in circles, Rangers are either good at evaluating defensemen or they are not. By the time the Rangers are good again, most of the players and Quinn will probably not be with them.

In the mean time the name of the game should be stockpile, develop and try to add value to any assets they can whether they like them or not, whether they are in the long term plans or not.

The culture, work ethic, toughness aspects will ebb and flow based on whoever they best players eventually are regardless of the coach or the what should be at most depth playing on their lower lines/pairs.

 

[McRanger]

There is nothing wrong with benching young players as long as the goal is to improve the player, I just question the overall effectiveness of it. Players can work to improve certain parts of their game and maybe break bad habits but I doubt anyone has ever had a drastic change in their natural work ethic and there is pretty much zero chance anything happens to their innate abilities like defensive awareness.

Like I mentioned in another thread a while back, professional sports is the only industry where people prefer inferior options simply because they work harder.

 

[Off Sides]

Skjei at even strength has played almost the same exact amount of ice time with McQuaid as he had with ADA, 258 minutes.

Pretty much every stats has Skjei/ADA being better or on par than Skjei/McQuaid in that respect but the one that stands out the most for it's actually non proxy importance towards winning and losing?

ADA/Skjei 13 goals for 12 against

Skjei/McQuaid 9 goals for 13 against

 

[Edge]

Like I mentioned in another thread a while back, professional sports is the only industry where people prefer inferior options simply because they work harder.

That's not entirely true though.

Unless your the world's most talented employee, most industries have standards and expectations.

You could be the world's most talented young airplane mechanic, but a company hiring you doesn't really care if you can take apart an engine blindfolded. They also want to know that the system they have in place is being followed and they're not wondering what solution you've pursued on your own.

In ADA's case, he is a very talented young man. But he's not so far ahead of the curve that rules don't apply to him --- especially from a coaching staff that is trying to get similar buy in from other young players. So there's going to be some expectation of what they want to get into the lineup. Based on the comments, from Quinn himself, communication on expectations doesn't seem to be the problem.

Agreement on expectations is a possibility. Adherence to expectations is a possibility. But awareness of the expectations doesn't seem to be an issue.

Do we know this for sure? No, we don't.

However, when a coach says things like "He knows what our expectations are" or "He knows what he has to do get into the lineup", it does suggest a pretty clear picture.

We can disagree about philosophies or strategies, but almost everyone agrees that Quinn is a good communicator. So I don't think communication about what he expects from ADA is a mystery, and frankly, it seems to be backed up by his comments --- at least as much as we're going to find.

So, once again, that tends to point to it being a disconnect on adherence.

And if that's the case, with all due respect to ADA, he's not in a position or a point in his career where he gets to decide what strategies and philosophies he wants to accept or not accept from his coach.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Trying and doing are two different things. If he has been told you need to do X and he decided that he would rather do X.1, then that is not trying. That is changing what you have been told.

I wasn't trying to imply that he is changing the coaches direction, but rather trying to accomplish it and occasionally failing. All players fail all the time, poor reads happen, bad passes happen, shooting when you should pass and passing when you should shoot.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

That's not entirely true though.

Unless your the world's most talented employee, most industries have standards and expectations.

You could be the world's most talented young airplane mechanic, but a company hiring you doesn't really care if you can take apart an engine blindfolded. They also want to know that the system they have in place is being followed and they're not wondering what solution you've pursued on your own.

In ADA's case, he is a very talented young man. But he's not so far ahead of the curve that rules don't apply to him --- especially from a coaching staff that is trying to get similar buy in from other young players. So there's going to be some expectation of what they want to get into the lineup. Based on the comments, from Quinn himself, communication on expectations doesn't seem to be the problem.

Agreement on expectations is a possibility. Adherence to expectations is a possibility. But awareness of the expectations doesn't seem to be an issue.

Do we know this for sure? No, we don't.

However, when a coach says things like "He knows what our expectations are" or "He knows what he has to do get into the lineup", it does suggest a pretty clear picture.

We can disagree about philosophies or strategies, but almost everyone agrees that Quinn is a good communicator. So I don't think communication about what he expects from ADA is a mystery, and frankly, it seems to be backed up by his comments --- at least as much as we're going to find.

So, once again, that tends to point to it being a disconnect on adherence.

And if that's the case, with all due respect to ADA, he's not in a position or a point in his career where he gets to decide what strategies and philosophies he wants to accept or not accept from his coach.

This is a long and good post and I've ranted too many times to repeat the whole thing but the underlines portion is nothing more than standard "coach speak"

 

[McRanger]

That's not entirely true though.

Unless your the world's most talented employee, most industries have standards and expectations.

You could be the world's most talented young airplane mechanic, but a company hiring you doesn't really care if you can take apart an engine blindfolded. They also want to know that the system they have in place is being followed and they're not wondering what solution you've pursued on your own.

You would want to fly in a plane serviced by someone more likely to screw up the engine just because the guy works really long hours and can recite the manual to you by heart? Of course not. And its not the same in any other industry either. No one goes back to a crappy dentist because he likes the guys gumption. No company is going to fire the more productive salesman to keep a less productive option just because the manager knows deep down the former has so much more to give. Imagine that manager explaining that to his superiors? "Well yes John had much better sales numbers but truth be told we felt he he could have had even better numbers if worked even harder so our solution was to go with Fred who frequently gets lost in his own cubicle."

But we cheer that in sports. Its bizarre.

In ADA's case, he is a very talented young man. But he's not so far ahead of the curve that rules don't apply to him --- especially from a coaching staff that is trying to get similar buy in from other young players. So there's going to be some expectation of what they want to get into the lineup. Based on the comments, from Quinn himself, communication on expectations doesn't seem to be the problem.

Agreement on expectations is a possibility. Adherence to expectations is a possibility. But awareness of the expectations doesn't seem to be an issue.

Do we know this for sure? No, we don't.

However, when a coach says things like "He knows what our expectations are" or "He knows what he has to do get into the lineup", it does suggest a pretty clear picture.

We can disagree about philosophies or strategies, but almost everyone agrees that Quinn is a good communicator. So I don't think communication about what he expects from ADA is a mystery, and frankly, it seems to be backed up by his comments --- at least as much as we're going to find.

So, once again, that tends to point to it being a disconnect on adherence.

And if that's the case, with all due respect to ADA, he's not in a position or a point in his career where he gets to decide what strategies and philosophies he wants to accept or not accept from his coach.

I dont think ADA is above the rules or even the borderline idiotic norms that have been established.

I just think that there is a point where you need to choose between living with a players warts and icing a different but inferior player.

Sometimes you just need to accept a player is the way he is and acknowledge that your team is better with him on the ice instead of trying to force a change that will never happen. I mean somewhere out there Kovalev is still skating his never ending shift against Boston thinking "this is fun" and completely not getting the lesson.

 

[Edge]

This is a long and good post and I've ranted too many times to repeat the whole thing but the underlines portion is nothing more than standard "coach speak"

But what else is he really supposed to say there?

"Tony, this kid, he don't listen. It's like talking to a brick wall. I know he's not stunod or nothing, but I think he needs to get his ears checked!"

 

[Off Sides]

ADA should totally bow down to Quinn, because if not Quinn will win, ADA will not play and the Rangers end up losing out on a talented prospect.

From the GM's perspective I have trouble seeing how that is advantageous.

I'm just tired of seeing this organization paint themselves into corners then come up with the most expensive solution to get out of it, like knocking down the wall instead of just waiting for the paint to dry.

And it would be one thing if they learned not to paint themselves in again, yet I fully expect to see them again this off-season be like, oh and what about the defense? How can we import yet another 3rd pair defender?

 

[nyr2k2]

Yeah, it's coach speak. It's cliched and anodyne, but not meaningless. Coach speak is being used because a situation exists where the language is warranted.

 

[Sarge13]

Yeah, it's coach speak. It's cliched and anodyne, but not meaningless. Coach speak is being used because a situation exists where the language is warranted.

And this is not the first coach to say it....

 

[Edge]

You would want to fly in a plane serviced by someone more likely to screw up the engine just because the guy works really long hours and can recite the manual to you by heart? Of course not. And its not the same in any other industry either. No one goes back to a crappy dentist because he likes the guys gumption. No company is going to fire the more productive salesman to keep a less productive option just because the manager knows deep down the former has so much more to give. Imagine that manager explaining that to his superiors? "Well yes John had much better sales numbers but truth be told we felt he he could have had even better numbers if worked even harder so our solution was to go with Fred who frequently gets lost in his own cubicle."

This is fun, I'll play along.

"Well yes, John has decent sales numbers. But unfortunately we don't know what they were because he couldn't be bothered to keep track. When asked, he shrugged and went on his way. We don't really know where is right now, because John makes his own hours and doesn't feel like picking up his phone today. Granted, we've lost productivity time trying to get John to do the things we need him to do, and we can't trust him with our biggest clients, but hey his numbers are good. Or at least they should be good.

"For some reason he has a lot of sales calls, but not a lot of sales. Hmm. But these underlying numbers says he's a rockstar.

"Wait, what do you mean they don't? Ohhhhh, you mean they're projected to be rockstar numbers, if only we could trust John with those bigger clients. I gotcha.

"Hey, by the way, how many jobs has John been through in the last few years? Hmmm, that seems odd for a rockstar employee like John. I wonder what the issues were? Ohhhhhh, he didn't keep track. I'm sure his numbers were amazing and keeping track was just a bother. Oh....

"That's alright, it clearly wasn't John's fault. It must've been those other companies and their management. Or maybe they didn't like him because he wasn't proven. Yeah, that's it. Wait, one of those companies is recognized for having one of the best HR departments in our industry? Nah, probably wasn't John.

"John's a good guy. Nothing to worry about. It's just our stupid managers. And the stupid managers at the other company. And the stupid managers at the other company. You can't put those kind of restrctions on John, that kid assisted on a bunch of sales over the last two months.

"Wait? What? It was three sales he assisted on? Okay, fine. How many sales did he score? None you say? Well that doesn't seem right. John is our best sales person.

"You know it must be that stupid manager he reports to. Just like all the rest, fools, all of them. John's coming around, just you wait."

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

ADA should totally bow down to Quinn, because if not Quinn will win, ADA will not play and the Rangers end up losing out on a talented prospect.

From the GM's perspective I have trouble seeing how that is advantageous.

I'm just tired of seeing this organization paint themselves into corners then come up with the most expensive solution to get out of it, like knocking down the wall instead of just waiting for the paint to dry.

I would tend to buy into this if the Rangers were DeAngelo's first organization, but the fact of the matter is he was jettisoned from two other organizations as the same talented prospect. This certainly does not look like a problem that is totally attributable to the Rangers.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

This thread is teaching me life lessons rn

 

[McRanger]

This is fun, I'll play along.

"Well yes, John has decent sales numbers. But unfortunately we don't know what they were because he couldn't be bothered to keep track. When asked, he shrugged and went on his way. We don't really know where is right now, because John makes his own hours and doesn't feel like picking up his phone today. Granted, we've lost productivity time trying to get John to do the things we need him to do, and we can't trust him with our biggest clients, but hey his numbers are good. Or at least they should be good.

"For some reason he has a lot of sales calls, but not a lot of sales. Hmm. But these underlying numbers says he's a rockstar.

"Wait, what do you mean they don't? Ohhhhh, you mean they're projected to be rockstar numbers, if only we could trust John with those bigger clients. I gotcha.

"Hey, by the way, how many jobs has John been through in the last few years? Hmmm, that seems odd for a rockstar employee like John. I wonder what the issues were? Ohhhhhh, he didn't keep track. I'm sure his numbers were amazing and keeping track was just a bother. Oh....

"That's alright, it clearly wasn't John's fault. It must've been those other companies and their management. Or maybe they didn't like him because he wasn't proven. Yeah, that's it. Wait, one of those companies is recognized for having one of the best HR departments in our industry? Nah, probably wasn't John.

"John's a good guy. Nothing to worry about. It's just our stupid managers. And the stupid managers at the other company. And the stupid managers at the other company. You can't put those kind of restrctions on John, that kid assisted on a bunch of sales over the last two months.

"Wait? What? It was three sales he assisted on? Okay, fine. How many sales did he score? None you say? Well that doesn't seem right. John is our best sales person.

"You know it must be that stupid manager he reports to. Just like all the rest, fools, all of them. John's coming around, just you wait."

John would still keep his job over Tanner or Cody aka the guys who also cant be trusted with big clients but work ALL the long hours and makes ALL the cold calls in the world and have every last piece of paper work in order... and in the end are best at convincing clients to buy from your competitors.

 

[True Blue]

I wasn't trying to imply that he is changing the coaches direction, but rather trying to accomplish it and occasionally failing. All players fail all the time, poor reads happen, bad passes happen, shooting when you should pass and passing when you should shoot.

I get it. But that is not the situation as I read the tea leaves. It is not failing at doing what you are told to do. That would be to make mistakes as long as your approach is the right one. However, if you are making mistakes because your approach is not the right one (i.e what the coaches are preaching for you to do), then that is an entirely different scenario.

 

[Edge]

John would still keep his job over Tanner or Cody aka the guys who also cant be trusted with big clients but work ALL the long hours and makes ALL the cold calls in the world and have every last piece of paper work in order... and in the end are best at convincing clients to buy from your competitors.

I dunno, John's rockstar numbers aren't exceptionally better than Tanner or Cody's enough for him to be trusted with the big clients. Maybe if we felt he was listening on the smaller details, we'd feel comfortable throwing him in there. I'd tell him as much, but he's out having a smoke.

But I'm not really worried about them buying from our competitors, because after looking at our 4th quarter data, John didn't really have a ton of sales.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

But what else is he really supposed to say there?

"Tony, this kid, he don't listen. It's like talking to a brick wall. I know he's not stunod or nothing, but I think he needs to get his ears checked!"

I'm not saying Quinn should adjust his langauge, I'm saying not to read that far into it.

When AV said "We had some really good chances" did that always mean we had chances and couldve won the game? No. Its a non-answer meant to push the question off without causing any drama.

 

[McRanger]

I dunno, John's rockstar numbers aren't exceptionally better than Tanner or Cody's enough for him to be trusted with the big clients. Maybe if we felt he was listening on the smaller details, we'd feel comfortable throwing him in there. I'd tell him as much, but he's out having a smoke.

But I'm not really worried about them buying from our competitors, because after looking at our 4th quarter data, John didn't really have a ton of sales.

John, who often mistakes the broom closet for a bathroom, still has undeniably better numbers than Tanner or Cody's which are so awful that most companies would make sure their online degrees from Awesome University were legit before wondering whether their presence in the company is actually highly skilled industrial espionage.

But then again they both pioneered Hawaiian Shirt Wednesday, so who knows maybe they are important for morale or some other ethereal concept that no on ever really fully understands.

 

[Edge]

John, who often mistakes the broom closet for a bathroom, still has undeniably better numbers than Tanner or Cody's which are so awful that most companies would make sure their online degrees from Awesome University were legit before wondering whether their presence in the company is actually highly skilled industrial espionage.

But then again they both pioneered Hawaiian Shirt Wednesday, so who knows maybe they are important for morale or some other ethereal concept that no on ever really fully understands.

I dunno, for all the talk of Hawaiian shirts and online degrees, Tanner and Cody are posting sales numbers that are superior to John's in some respects --- and they seem to be able to do it without missing work.

Granted none of their sales numbers are going to cut it if this company ever hopes to be considered among the best of the best, but that's another story.

Personally, I hope John gets his **** together and can find a happy medium with his latest boss, because there's a lot of talent there. But if he can't ever seem to integrate into a team setting, he's going to find himself with a long list of companies on his resume. And no one will be talking about how many sales John was once thought to be capable of.

 

[McRanger]

I dunno, for all the talk of Hawaiian shirts and online degrees, Tanner and Cody are posting sales numbers that are superior to John's in some respects --- and they seem to be able to do it without missing work.

Granted none of their sales numbers are going to cut it if this company ever hopes to be considered among the best of the best, but that's another story.

Personally, I hope John gets his **** together, because there's a lot of talent there. But if he can't ever seem to integrate into a team setting, he's going to find himself with a long list of companies on his resume. And no one will be talking about how many sales John was once thought to be capable of.

We must be looking at two different sets of Tanner and Cody's, because their numbers are nothing compared to Johns. Like, at all. In any sense. From any angle. Their worse than John and any other person named John that has ever worked for the company, including the recently deceased.

I just received word Tanner was fired and unable to secure work is now stocking shelves in France. Long live Cody!