Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo - Part II

[Kovalev27]

if pionk is out thru the weekend deangelo has a nice opportunity to show something. and he better.

 

[SA16]

If we're looking for the things that might be a factor, they are within the posts we have here: the penalties, the undisciplined play, the possibility of the coaching staff thinking he resembles a wing when pinching, diminishing returns on production despite what we just mentioned, not implementing what they're asking him to implement, etc.

Whether one agrees with that or finds it fair is a different matter.

I think outside of this board, the Vegas game is probably a microcosm of where ADA is at.

He has a penalty differential of 0 on the year which is 3rd best among Ranger dmen (after Shattenkirk/Skjei). The penalty thing is selective memory because of the types of penalties he takes and because people never consider how many penalties a player draws.

Smith,McQuaid,Staal,and Skjei however are all in the -.4 to -.6 penalty differential/60 range

And last year in 32 games played he took 0.13 penalties/60 (least among Ranger dmen) and drew 0.4/60 (4th best...3rd if you exclude Kampfer).

In fact if you look at all dmen in the NHL since DeAngelo became a Ranger last year (800+ mins played) he is number 120 out of 206 in penalties/60 and 9th best in penalty differential/60. He's actually been a large positive in terms of penalties.

Interesting thing is only 26 dmen have had a positive penalty differential. I guess it sort of makes sense though. Dmen can easily take crosschecking/roughing penalties and such in front of the net or on the boards or hook/trip someone on a rush but they don't carry the puck enough themselves to draw those kind of fouls.

 

[nyr2k2]

I'm reminded of something a sheriff once told me while I was hunting a serial killer in Haddonfield:

"More fancy talk."

I think it best to forget the other part of the conversation, dispense with the idioms and just lay down the points about ADA.

1) ADA has not done anything on the ice to justify his benchings.

2) Since we are 200+ posts in and no one can has bothered disputing point #1, we are led to assume that there is something off the ice that is the problem.

3) If there is an off ice issue that is actually detrimental to the team and ADA is that much of a problem then he should be waived. Why bother keeping him?

4) If his "off ice issue" is that Quinn "wants more from him" then at what point does he actually get to play regularly to show improvement? And how is playing obviously worse players (who the coach should most certainly "want more from") good for either on ice success or the concept of accountability? At what point do you just acknowledge that a young player may not improve and be forced to play him over the significantly inferior options? Never? You just roll with worse players to teach them a lesson about being the best "you" that you can be?

This whole thing is a legitimately bizarre situation. And I don't even particularly like ADA.

The answer to three seems relatively straightforward--he's an otherwise competent young player with upside, and while whatever issues he has are enough to get him scratched, they're not enough to justify giving up on him. I mean scratches and benchings seem to be the tool that the Rangers (and previous NHL and AHL franchises) have tried to use as motivation/punishment/whatever. If it gets to the point where the situation becomes untenable, I have no doubt the Rangers will move on; but until that time they'll just continue doing this, hoping to correct the issues or deficiencies they've identified.

I just don't think it's that mysterious. A couple other organizations and multiple coaches have evidently run into something with the kid that leads them to hold him out, even if he's otherwise a promising player (the fallout is always "aversion to defense" and "attitude"). It happened with Tampa, it happened with Arizona, and it's happening here evidently. Again, the exact specifics? I don't know, I can only go by what has been reported or speculated, which I mentioned. But it's just a continuation of a cycle that started back when the kid was a teenager in junior hockey. I don't know why people are so baffled this somewhat-ambiguous cycle is continuing.

Still, as I said, the answer to three seems easy. His problems aren't tearing the team apart, just holding him back personally. So he's worth keeping in the hopes that you can "fix" them.

 

[Edge]

He has a penalty differential of 0 on the year which is 3rd best among Ranger dmen (after Shattenkirk/Skjei). The penalty thing is selective memory because of the types of penalties he takes and because people never consider how many penalties a player draws.

Perhaps, but a coach will also consider how often that player is playing and against who.

If you're sitting out as bunch of games and getting 15 minutes of ice time, there's the distinct possibility that the coach doesn't trust you in an expanded role where he and his staff feel that differential is likely to grow.

And again, if we're looking at the question as to why he's sitting, the answer is simple --- the coaching staff doesn't trust him.

The second question is why? And we've listed potential reasons, several of which tie to comments Quinn has made.

The third question is whether one agrees with that. The answer to that could very well be a resounding no, but it doesn't mean the first two haven't already been answered. It means one doesn't agree with the answers they've been given. Which is a different matter than not having received an answer.

 

[nyr2k2]

If we're looking for the things that might be a factor, they are within the posts we have here: the penalties, the undisciplined play, the possibility of the coaching staff thinking he resembles a wing when pinching, diminishing returns on production despite what we just mentioned, not implementing what they're asking him to implement, etc.

Whether one agrees with that or finds it fair is a different matter.

I think outside of this board, the Vegas game is probably a microcosm of where ADA is at.

The history, from when the guy was a teenager, through his various stops with different NHL and AHL teams, has been spelled out pretty clearly and repeatedly. The potential causes of the problems have also been spelled out, from quotes to logical reasoning to pure speculation. I feel like at this point if people aren't connecting the dots, it's because they don't want to. Maybe that's because they really like ADA or distrust the Rangers or are just of the mindset that your most talented players should play regardless of anything else. But, save for David Quinn himself stating, "The problems I have with DeAngelo are X, Y, and Z," which will never happen, I think there's more than enough out there to kind of figure out why the situation is what it is.

 

[SA16]

I'm just saying the penalty excuse is nonsense. He's been a large positive in terms of the penalty game which is something very rare for a defenseman.

 

[Edge]

The history, from when the guy was a teenager, through his various stops with different NHL and AHL teams, has been spelled out pretty clearly and repeatedly. The potential causes of the problems have also been spelled out, from quotes to logical reasoning to pure speculation. I feel like at this point if people aren't connecting the dots, it's because they don't want to. Maybe that's because they really like Pionk or distrust the Rangers or are just of the mindset that your most talented player should play regardless of anything else. But, save for David Quinn himself stating, "The problems I have with DeAngelo are X, Y, and Z," which will never happen, I think there's more than enough out there to kind of figure out why the situation is what it is.

And for me, I don't necessarily agree with Quinn and the staff on this subject.

But I'm not particularly confused by their reasons either.

It's kind of like how I can "get" the point that other posters are making, even if I don't particularly agree with their point of view.

 

[Edge]

I'm just saying the penalty excuse is nonsense. He's been a large positive in terms of the penalty game which is something very rare for a defenseman.

I'm a little hesitant to go down that path, because I feel like we can argue that both ways.

On the one had we're arguing about him not rolling out there in a variety of situations and getting the playing time he deserves.

On the other hand we're comparing his penalty differential to plays who are being used in those situations and playing 50 percent more than him on a given night.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

The answer to three seems relatively straightforward--he's an otherwise competent young player with upside, and while whatever issues he has are enough to get him scratched, they're not enough to justify giving up on him. I mean scratches and benchings seem to be the tool that the Rangers (and previous NHL and AHL franchises) have tried to use as motivation/punishment/whatever. If it gets to the point where the situation becomes untenable, I have no doubt the Rangers will move on; but until that time they'll just continue doing this (whatever "this" is, really) hoping to correct the issues or deficiencies they've identified.

I just don't think it's that mysterious. A couple other organizations and multiple coaches have evidently run into something with the kid that leads them to hold him out, even if he's otherwise a promising player (the fallout is always "aversion to defense" and "attitude"). It happened with Tampa, it happened with Arizona, and it's happening here evidently. Again, the exact specifics? I don't know, I can only go by what has been reported or speculated, which I mentioned. But it's just a continuation of a cycle that started back when the kid was a teenager in junior hockey. I don't know why people are so baffled this somewhat-ambiguous cycle is continuing.

Still, as I said, the answer to three seems easy. His problems aren't tearing the team apart, just holding him back personally. So he's worth keeping in the hopes that you can "fix" them.

Absolutely nothing to show this since he's been Ranger's property...

At somepoint we have to stop crucifying a guy for what he did as a teenager... How many among us would be where we are if your record wasn't expunged when you turn 18? How many of us look back at our teenage years and say "yup i was an idiot with little to no control of my emotions"? How many among us made as much money as he did at 20 and moved out of home? How many have dealt with some of the real life moving around hes had to deal with? Teams say they want him and theyre happy hes here but then trade him away, don't tell me that doesnt effect him.

With his attitude, I'll tell you what I've seen since hes been here(thats all that matters to us anyway). He chirps, hes fiesty, and most importantly he stands up for himself and his teammates. I bet his entire life ADA was the small kid. and hes scrapy because of it. You guys say you want toughness but when you get some you run to hide.

Flat out the kid can play. He has the highest ceiling of any of our Dmen current and prospects... To not give him everyshot to reach that ceiling is dumb, regardless if he reaches it or not.

 

[SA16]

Basically DeAngelo is a player who appears to be:

1. Very valuable in terms of helping his team have more special teams chances than the other
2. A good offensive player who is a good puck handler
3. A good shot blocker
4. Good at driving the play for his team

Does he need to be sheltered? Maybe. But who cares? He performs well in that role.

But he can sometimes be seen making a mistake which will be noticeable because that is the case for all dmen who like to have the puck on their stick and make plays rather than just clearing it out of the zone essentially giving it to the other team.

There is no on-ice reason for him to not play every game. We are not NSH with Ekholm/Ellis/Josi/Subban (he'd play there anyway their 3rd pairing is terrible). If he doesn't play because of "off-ice" reasons I find that to be far more of an indictment on the coach (all his coaches) because it shows they are more concerned with holding grudges against players who may have a bad attitude or aren't good at following instructions (not saying this is or isn't the case for DeAngelo) rather than putting the best players out on the ice.

I'm a little hesitant to go down that path, because I feel like we can argue that both ways.

On the one had we're arguing about him not rolling out there in a variety of situations and getting the playing time he deserves.

On the other hand we're comparing his penalty differential to plays who are being used in those situations and playing 50 percent more than him on a given night.

Ok well if I filter the list to only include players who have played +/- 1 minute of his average TOI in this time frame I get 71 players and he's now the 4th best.

 

[True Blue]

With his attitude, I'll tell you what I've seen since hes been here(thats all that matters to us anyway). He chirps, hes fiesty, and most importantly he stands up for himself and his teammates. I bet his entire life ADA was the small kid. and hes scrapy because of it. You guys say you want toughness but when you get some you run to hide.

Flat out the kid can play. He has the highest ceiling of any of our Dmen current and prospects... To not give him everyshot to reach that ceiling is dumb, regardless if he reaches it or not.

Do you believe that he is doing everything that Quinn has demanded of him?

 

[Edge]

Absolutely nothing to show this since he's been Ranger's property...

At somepoint we have to stop crucifying a guy for what he did as a teenager... How many among us would be where we are if your record wasn't expunged when you turn 18? How many of us look back at our teenage years and say "yup i was an idiot with little to no control of my emotions"? How many among us made as much money as he did at 20 and moved out of home? How many have dealt with some of the real life moving around hes had to deal with? Teams say they want him and theyre happy hes here but then trade him away, don't tell me that doesnt effect him.

With his attitude, I'll tell you what I've seen since hes been here(thats all that matters to us anyway). He chirps, hes fiesty, and most importantly he stands up for himself and his teammates. I bet his entire life ADA was the small kid. and hes scrapy because of it. You guys say you want toughness but when you get some you run to hide.

Flat out the kid can play. He has the highest ceiling of any of our Dmen current and prospects... To not give him everyshot to reach that ceiling is dumb, regardless if he reaches it or not.

I don't think he's being crucified for what he did as a kid, but I'd be surprised if some of those same traits haven't manifested themselves when it comes to taking instruction and hurt his case since then.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Do you believe that he is doing everything that Quinn has demanded of him?

I believe that he is trying to do everything Quinn has demanded of him...

Guys have short comings, its natural. His weak point is defensive reads, but everygame i see him get better at it.. I think he gets judged unfairly, because of his reputation as a offensive guy. His defense is not markedly worse than just about everyone of our defensemen.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

I don't think he's being crucified for what he did as a kid, but I'd be surprised if some of those same traits haven't manifested themselves when it comes to taking instruction and hurt his case since then.

He is on this board. Everytime something happens with him its "o but he called his teammate a *f-word* in junior so hes a horrible person" lets be honest here guys, who didn't call their teammates names in highschool??? I know it was the most common thing in my HS football lockerroom.

 

[SA16]

I believe that he is trying to do everything Quinn has demanded of him...

Guys have short comings, its natural. His weak point is defensive reads, but everygame i see him get better at it.. I think he gets judged unfairly, because of his reputation as a offensive guy. His defense is not markedly worse than just about everyone of our defensemen.

Standard hockey thought forever has been if a defenseman is good offensively he's basically automatically considered bad defensively. And such you get the constant heaps of praise thrown on dmen who score 30-45ish points and you get guys like Karlsson bashed endlessly for playing poor defensively even if it's not the case at all.

Do you believe that he is doing everything that Quinn has demanded of him?

No way to know this but I honestly don't care. If he is ignoring everything Quinn says and McQuaid is doing everything Quinn says...well he's still been far better. I understand that will make Quinn dislike him but that is the point where you have to realize that doing what is best for the team is not necesarily the same as what makes the coach feel good.

 

[Edge]

Basically DeAngelo is a player who appears to be:

1. Very valuable in terms of helping his team have more special teams chances than the other
2. A good offensive player who is a good puck handler
3. A good shot blocker
4. Good at driving the play for his team

Does he need to be sheltered? Maybe. But who cares? He performs well in that role.

But he can sometimes be seen making a mistake which will be noticeable because that is the case for all dmen who like to have the puck on their stick and make plays rather than just clearing it out of the zone essentially giving it to the other team.

There is no on-ice reason for him to not play every game. We are not NSH with Ekholm/Ellis/Josi/Subban (he'd play there anyway their 3rd pairing is terrible). If he doesn't play because of "off-ice" reasons I find that to be far more of an indictment on the coach (all his coaches) because it shows they are more concerned with holding grudges against players who may have a bad attitude or aren't good at following instructions (not saying this is or isn't the case for DeAngelo) rather than putting the best players out on the ice.



Ok well if I filter the list to only include players who have played +/- 1 minute of his average TOI in this time frame I get 71 players and he's now the 4th best.

Okay, so you've listed his strengths. What would you consider to be his weaknesses? And what performance are we to judge him by? Since November 12th, ADA has posted 0 goals and 3 assists in 19 games.

 

[Edge]

No way to know this but I honestly don't care. If he is ignoring everything Quinn says and McQuaid is doing everything Quinn says...well he's still been far better. I understand that will make Quinn dislike him but that is the point where you have to realize that doing what is best for the team is not necesarily the same as what makes the coach feel good.

That's not how ANY team works with a 23 year old kid who hasn't established himself in the NHL yet.

PERIOD.

You show me an NHL coach who does that with someone in ADA's position.

 

[nyr2k2]

Sean Avery, if memory serves, generally drew more penalties than he himself took. I don't know where to find these numbers. I do seem to remember his first year with us he actually drew way more penalties than he took.

The problem with that, however, was that the penalties he took were often f***ing dumb, and really untimely. So even though he was a net positive in that respect, he would catch shit from Renney and later Torts for it. And even as a guy who liked Avery (at the time), it was justified.

Not saying this necessarily applies to DeAngelo. It's just that whether a guy takes or draws more penalties doesn't tell the whole story.

 

[Edge]

He is on this board. Everytime something happens with him its "o but he called his teammate a *f-word* in junior so hes a horrible person" lets be honest here guys, who didn't call their teammates names in highschool??? I know it was the most common thing in my HS football lockerroom.

I've not seen that come up once in the course of this conversation with the people you're responding to right now.

You argue those claims with the people who are making them, don't lump them into a response to someone who hasn't.

 

[SA16]

Okay, so you've listed his strengths. What would you consider to be his weaknesses? And what performance are we to judge him by? Since November 12th, ADA has posted 0 goals and 3 assists in 19 games.

I said that he can be prone to turning the puck over which is something that is the case for all dmen who like to handle the puck. And yes he does take a lot of penalties which is bad however it is likely that his feisty play like that is also the reason that he draws so many.

 

[tradenashnow]

DeAngelo is a stretch to ever be a good NHL defenseman. Faster they use him in a deal and dump him the better.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Standard hockey thought forever has been if a defenseman is good offensively he's basically automatically considered bad defensively. And such you get the constant heaps of praise thrown on dmen who score 30-45ish points and you get guys like Karlsson bashed endlessly for playing poor defensively even if it's not the case at all.



No way to know this but I honestly don't care. If he is ignoring everything Quinn says and McQuaid is doing everything Quinn says...well he's still been far better. I understand that will make Quinn dislike him but that is the point where you have to realize that doing what is best for the team is not necesarily the same as what makes the coach feel good.

If i may reference the NFL for a bit, look at what that coke head Adam Gase did in miami(sorry jets fans). He shipped of the Dolphins 2 best offensive players(Landry and Ajayi), because they disagreed with him and he wanted to "build a culture". Then the offense sucked and he got fired.... Once again sorry Jets fans. Heres a funny video of his intro press conference:

 

[SA16]

That's not how ANY team works with a 23 year old kid who hasn't established himself in the NHL yet.

PERIOD.

You show me an NHL coach who does that with someone in ADA's position.

Didn't say any do that. I believe they are all wrong to do. It's an opinion on how a team should be run. You can learn to work with people you don't necessarily get along with or you can spite yourself and have a worse team by not using them.

 

[nyr2k2]

He is on this board. Everytime something happens with him its "o but he called his teammate a *f-word* in junior so hes a horrible person" lets be honest here guys, who didn't call their teammates names in highschool??? I know it was the most common thing in my HS football lockerroom.

I mentioned the stuff in juniors only as a lead in to my narrative history of ADA. I'm not crucifying him for it. And while some of that did occur when we first got him, I don't really see any of it happening now. I don't really see anyone talking about it, let alone beating him up for it. I even said, "Fine, let's assume he grew up," which is absolutely giving him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Edge]

I said that he can be prone to turning the puck over which is something that is the case for all dmen who like to handle the puck. And yes he does take a lot of penalties which is bad however it is likely that his feisty play like that is also the reason that he draws so many.

I honestly think the Rangers can live with the mistakes if they feel he's working to meet other expectations.

I don't think it's a black and white issue, where mistake-free hockey is expected and they are trying to turn him into a defensive stalwart. I honestly don't.