Confirmed with Link: Tony DeAngelo on unconditional waivers in second buyout window.

[LegionOfDoom91]

You know it’s a long list when you have to
keep repeating the same name.

I’m not gonna sit here & act like it’s impossible for Tortorella to have his supporters amongst players. But at best the guy is a polarizing person. The amount of players who really have gone on record good or bad beyond generic statements is probably like 10 or so in general.

Dubinsky isn’t even the biggest detractor either. That would be Lecavalier who requested a trade because of Tortorella in the prime of his career. He ultimately stayed but those two certainly aren’t fans of each other.

 

[wasup]

Guys like St Louis love him. Atkinson lobbied for him, and had no need to (on his last big contract).

I doubt he's nearly as bad as advertised. Since he wears his emotions on his sleeve, it's just more obvious than other martinet HCs who are more subtle and probably more vicious as well.

You can doubt all you want , while he is head coach you will defend him to the end . Just like you did with AV , Hak and Fletcher . Once they are fired you turncoat but your constant defending them until then is predictable and expected .

 

[scumpup]

this imaginary person you guys talk to certainly seems to get off on running the same conversation into the ground for years. maybe you all should consider an exorcist.

 

[zizbuka]

Guys like St Louis love him. Atkinson lobbied for him, and had no need to (on his last big contract).

I doubt he's nearly as bad as advertised. Since he wears his emotions on his sleeve, it's just more obvious than other martinet HCs who are more subtle and probably more vicious as well.

Then there's scratching a guy for no reason other than his family would be in attendance. Can't wait for you to defend that one.

 

[deadhead]

You can doubt all you want , while he is head coach you will defend him to the end . Just like you did with AV , Hak and Fletcher . Once they are fired you turncoat but your constant defending them until then is predictable and expected .

Hakstol was a good HC, some flaws with communication, but people here grossly overestimated the talent on those teams, just look at the dreck on defense and the bottom six he was given - and you wonder why he coached conservatively? Seatlle was 5th in goals scored last season, maybe it was the talent in Philly that dictated his coaching style here?

AV and Fletcher did a good job that first year, turning the franchise around, that was the mandate after 2018-19. Got a 85-90 point team talent wise to the 2nd rd of the playoffs. Then the roof caved in. Because it was still an aging, middle of the pack team bound to come down to earth. And they had some bad luck, Patrick not even becoming a 2C/3C, Lindblom and cancer, Ellis and the plague, Couts.

Fletcher was mediocre, but the foundation for failure was set by Hextall, blowing the Patrick pick, Provorov turning out to be a 2nd pair D-man at #7, JOB instead of Miller, too many misses in the middle rounds. Signing JVR was a big of miss as signing Hayes, both gave a couple decent seasons but neither lived up to their contract, and the Voracek deal became an albatross after 2019. CF just doubled down on Hextall's mistakes.

 

[Cody Webster]

Then there's scratching a guy for no reason other than his family would be in attendance. Can't wait for you to defend that one.

He'll just ignore it

 

[Beef Invictus]

Hakstol was a good HC, some flaws with communication, but people here grossly overestimated the talent on those teams, just look at the dreck on defense and the bottom six he was given - and you wonder why he coached conservatively? Seatlle was 5th in goals scored last season, maybe it was the talent in Philly that dictated his coaching style here?

AV and Fletcher did a good job that first year, turning the franchise around, that was the mandate after 2018-19. Got a 85-90 point team talent wise to the 2nd rd of the playoffs. Then the roof caved in. Because it was still an aging, middle of the pack team bound to come down to earth. And they had some bad luck, Patrick not even becoming a 2C/3C, Lindblom and cancer, Ellis and the plague, Couts.

Fletcher was mediocre, but the foundation for failure was set by Hextall, blowing the Patrick pick, Provorov turning out to be a 2nd pair D-man at #7, JOB instead of Miller, too many misses in the middle rounds. Signing JVR was a big of miss as signing Hayes, both gave a couple decent seasons but neither lived up to their contract, and the Voracek deal became an albatross after 2019. CF just doubled down on Hextall's mistakes.

No good head coach repeatedly finds himself chasing the exact same victimized matchups the opposing coach wants.

You've repeatedly and constantly argued that Fletcher has made only one mistake, and it's just a maybe on it being a mistake. That's not medicine, that's great. Fletcher didn't fail because of Hextall. He failed because he blows ass all on his own.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Now we’re attempting to paint the following two things as equal:

1. Paying a draft pick for the right to sign a guy coming off of a career year to a full UFA value contract in both term and AAV.

2. Signing a free UFA to a higher AAV than desired, but lower than other teams offered, in order to keep the term down.

I also cannot help but laugh at all the things I’ve been told ultimately don’t move the needle, but now a perfectly good but unspectacular player in K’Andre Miller is one of the key talking points. Even as ridiculous as the Patrick complaints are, the JOB ones make the least sense to me. Taking big draft swings has a major downside. This is what it looks like. If you can’t accept that, then you don’t want them to take big swings. You just want your goose now. Boring.

*Edit* Before anyone says a word about this being a Hextall vs Fletcher issue, please remember that I am directly giving Fletcher credit for not signing him and getting a pick back out of the situation. I don’t like any of these doofuses one tiny bit.

 

[deadhead]

Now we’re attempting to paint the following two things as equal:

1. Paying a draft pick for the right to sign a guy coming off of a career year to a full UFA value contract in both term and AAV.

2. Signing a free UFA to a higher AAV than desired, but lower than other teams offered, in order to keep the term down.

I also cannot help but laugh at all the things I’ve been told ultimately don’t move the needle, but now a perfectly good but unspectacular player in K’Andre Miller is one of the key talking points. Even as ridiculous as the Patrick complaints are, the JOB ones make the least sense to me. Taking big draft swings has a major downside. This is what it looks like. If you can’t accept that, then you don’t want them to take big swings. You just want your goose now. Boring.

Problem is incoherent strategy, taking big swings makes sense for a rebuilding team, because you're garnering talent.
If you think your team is competitive, then your focus should be on building depth for a PO run (efficient, low cost moves b/c if you're a good team you're probably cap strapped).

Hextall started to rebuild, then stopped for almost 3 years, then traded Schenn but signed JVR - cognitive dissonance much?

Fletcher tried to win now, but they lacked the horses, even a good GM would have struggled to keep that team afloat as key players aged out.
His biggest fault was he knew the gig was up and still doubled down, gambling on drawing to an inside straight to keep his job.

I think most teams don't have coherent strategies, and that comes from the top, ownership dictating its preferences.
Self-delusion is rampant in business and politics, why not sports?

And most teams tend to ignore aging curves, quick back of the hand rule, average starters decline by 30, good by 32, elite by 35.
So you want to avoid contracts that go 2-3 years past that point, better to sign a 32 year old veteran to a short-term deal where you know the recent track record than project a 27 year old starter to play well in six seasons.

In football, the rule is plan 3 years out (your roster will turnover in that time, due to most starter contracts being effectively 3-4 years), in the NHL and baseball, more like 5 years or more (takes that long to develop the next generation of players, most make it as starters at age 22-24).

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Problem is incoherent strategy, taking big swings makes sense for a rebuilding team, because you're garnering talent.
If you think your team is competitive, then your focus should be on building depth for a PO run (efficient, low cost moves b/c if you're a good team you're probably cap strapped).

Hextall started to rebuild, then stopped for almost 3 years, then traded Schenn but signed JVR - cognitive dissonance much?

Fletcher tried to win now, but they lacked the horses, even a good GM would have struggled to keep that team afloat as key players aged out.
His biggest fault was he knew the gig was up and still doubled down, gambling on drawing to an inside straight to keep his job.

I think most teams don't have coherent strategies, and that comes from the top, ownership dictating its preferences.
Self-delusion is rampant in business and politics, why not sports?

And most teams tend to ignore aging curves, quick back of the hand rule, average starters decline by 30, good by 32, elite by 35.
So you want to avoid contracts that go 2-3 years past that point, better to sign a 32 year old veteran to a short-term deal where you know the recent track record than project a 27 year old starter to play well in six seasons.

In football, the rule is plan 3 years out (your roster will turnover in that time, due to most starter contracts being effectively 3-4 years), in the NHL and baseball, more like 5 years or more (takes that long to develop the next generation of players, most make it as starters at age 22-24).

The first paragraph is where we will never agree. The draft is still the only way to add cheap, controllable high-end talent. These kids are too young and too far away from being meaningful contributors to do pretend we can have close to enough certainty to give up the lottery tickets. Cheap NHL depth is always available.

I’ve never directly asked you this question and I don’t want to put words in your mouth. Why in your mind does pressure from inside the org mitigate most of Fletcher’s mistakes, but the JVR signing cannot be viewed in the same way? We know there was massive internal pressure to do something to get better. I don’t accept either as an excuse, but I can at least understand having the opposite opinion if it was consistent.

 

[deadhead]

The first paragraph is where we will never agree. The draft is still the only way to add cheap, controllable high-end talent. These kids are too young and too far away from being meaningful contributors to do pretend we can have close to enough certainty to give up the lottery tickets. Cheap NHL depth is always available.

I’ve never directly asked you this question and I don’t want to put words in your mouth. Why in your mind does pressure from inside the org mitigate most of Fletcher’s mistakes, but the JVR signing cannot be viewed in the same way? We know there was massive internal pressure to do something to get better. I don’t accept either as an excuse, but I can at least understand having the opposite opinion if it was consistent.

Hextall alienated the powers that be, GOT "you win or you die": he died.

Fletcher was specifically hired to employ a "consensus approach" to winning now, keeping the advisors in the loop (which meant being open to their input, and he had to be aware that Barber was Scott's special advisor). So he did what he was hired to do, not well, but Holmgren set the mandate and Scott held to the "aggressive reload" as last as spring 2022.

Hextall's mistake was as Grace Slick used to sing: "either go way or go all the way in" - he had a mandate to execute a rebuild, but pretty much stopped after trading Coburn and Kimmo at the TDL. At that point he wasn't under pressure to win, it's when you lower expectations and focus on adding talent - instead Mason has his career year (before a PO meltdown) and Hextall felt no urgency to continue rebuilding.

The Schenn/JVR deal was bizarre in that context, on the one hand, getting 2 1sts for Schenn and a salary dump (Lehtera) was a great rebuilding move, then you blow all that cap room for a player who only made sense for a PO team wanting to add offense (JVR). At that point he may have felt the pressure to win, but in that case, why take draft picks for Schenn instead of a player who was a better fit?

 

[Starat327]

The first paragraph is where we will never agree. The draft is still the only way to add cheap, controllable high-end talent. These kids are too young and too far away from being meaningful contributors to do pretend we can have close to enough certainty to give up the lottery tickets. Cheap NHL depth is always available.

I’ve never directly asked you this question and I don’t want to put words in your mouth. Why in your mind does pressure from inside the org mitigate most of Fletcher’s mistakes, but the JVR signing cannot be viewed in the same way? We know there was massive internal pressure to do something to get better. I don’t accept either as an excuse, but I can at least understand having the opposite opinion if it was consistent.

Save yourself and go back on vacation.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Hextall alienated the powers that be, GOT "you win or you die": he died.

Fletcher was specifically hired to employ a "consensus approach" to winning now, keeping the advisors in the loop (which meant being open to their input, and he had to be aware that Barber was Scott's special advisor). So he did what he was hired to do, not well, but Holmgren set the mandate and Scott held to the "aggressive reload" as last as spring 2022.

Hextall's mistake was as Grace Slick used to sing: "either go way or go all the way in" - he had a mandate to execute a rebuild, but pretty much stopped after trading Coburn and Kimmo at the TDL. At that point he wasn't under pressure to win, it's when you lower expectations and focus on adding talent - instead Mason has his career year (before a PO meltdown) and Hextall felt no urgency to continue rebuilding.

The Schenn/JVR deal was bizarre in that context, on the one hand, getting 2 1sts for Schenn and a salary dump (Lehtera) was a great rebuilding move, then you blow all that cap room for a player who only made sense for a PO team wanting to add offense (JVR). At that point he may have felt the pressure to win, but in that case, why take draft picks for Schenn instead of a player who was a better fit?

Ok, but situations develop over time. Yes, they were hired to do different things. We have all of these leaks that came out after the divorce specifically saying Holmgren and other advisors had been pressuring Hextall for years to use their checkbook to get better.

You know I try to avoid calling these guys complete idiots, whether it’s Hextall or Fletcher or Holmgren. They’re really not. It strains credulity to me to be so sure that Hextall simply didn’t find the least biting way he could to throw them a bone. Hell, the structure of the contract gives me more confidence this was the case. It wasn’t just designed to keep the AAV down. He front-loaded it too.

 

[deadhead]

Ok, but situations develop over time. Yes, they were hired to do different things. We have all of these leaks that came out after the divorce specifically saying Holmgren and other advisors had been pressuring Hextall for years to use their checkbook to get better.

You know I try to avoid calling these guys complete idiots, whether it’s Hextall or Fletcher or Holmgren. They’re really not. It strains credulity to me to be so sure that Hextall simply didn’t find the least biting way he could to throw them a bone. Hell, the structure of the contract gives me more confidence this was the case. It wasn’t just designed to keep the AAV down. He front-loaded it too.

But why wait 4 years to deal Schenn?

He knew he had the #2 pick when he made the deal, took Patrick and Frost, but this assumes he felt Patrick would be an immediate starter in the NHL, how many players can step in as a 2C at 19? He had 33 year old Filppula as insurance, but could he realistically have expected him to hold the fort at 2C?

One possibility might be that he made the trade thinking G would be 1C and Couts 2C, but G was coming off his worst season and turning 30.
They did need a LW, but so he may have seen it as trading Schenn for JVR and balancing the top two lines, and the draft picks were a bonus.

It reeks of self-delusion, that Hextall might have been more patient than Holmgren et al, but still overestimated the talent on the team.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

But why wait 4 years to deal Schenn?

He knew he had the #2 pick when he made the deal, took Patrick and Frost, but this assumes he felt Patrick would be an immediate starter in the NHL, how many players can step in as a 2C at 19? He had 33 year old Filppula as insurance, but could he realistically have expected him to hold the fort at 2C?

One possibility might be that he made the trade thinking G would be 1C and Couts 2C, but G was coming off his worst season and turning 30.
They did need a LW, but so he may have seen it as trading Schenn for JVR and balancing the top two lines, and the draft picks were a bonus.

It reeks of self-delusion, that Hextall might have been more patient than Holmgren et al, but still overestimated the talent on the team.

I think the simple answer is that he didn’t value Schenn much as a player at his expected cost and/or against his trade value. I’ve backed you up in the past when you’ve tried to decouple player evaluation from the decision to make a trade because they are separate issues. I see this as the Tails side of that coin.

I don’t have any way of knowing whether this is definitely the answer. It could be me projecting because it’s about where I was at the time. But I think it requires the least logical hoops to clear of the reasonable options.

 

[renberg]

AIR, Schenn had made it abundantly clear to the Flyers that he did not want to play wing. When Couturier took the 2 center job away from him, the Flyers had a choice to either play a disgruntled player at wing or move him. The Flyers made the smart move and traded him.

 

[deadhead]

AIR, Schenn had made it abundantly clear to the Flyers that he did not want to play wing. When Couturier took the 2 center job away from him, the Flyers had a choice to either play a disgruntled player at wing or move him. The Flyers made the smart move and traded him.

The problem wasn't trading Schenn, it was not deciding whether you're rebuilding (going for draft picks) or contending (signing 29 year old JVR to a 5/35 contract). Hextall could have turned around and traded a 1st rd pick or two (he had 4 over two seasons) for a NHL ready younger player.

 

[kudymen]

"The problem with good coach Hakscock was some people on the internet overestimating talent level"

Lolz
(Please note that in this post I'm not commenting on whether Hapikork was a good coach or not. I'm just laughing at the story structure)

 

[deadhead]

"The problem with good coach Hakscock was some people on the internet overestimating talent level"

Lolz
(Please note that in this post I'm not commenting on whether Hapikork was a good coach or not. I'm just laughing at the story structure)

I was told that team was a playoff team that would have been better with another HC. I was even told that Peters was a better HC than Hakstol.
I was also told that Berube was a much improved HC in St Louis (at least until last season ).
Or maybe it's a lot easier to coach more talented teams.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I was told that team was a playoff team that would have been better with another HC. I was even told that Peters was a better HC than Hakstol.
I was also told that Berube was a much improved HC in St Louis (at least until last season ).
Or maybe it's a lot easier to coach more talented teams.

Being a playoff team isn't impressive or difficult, how often have we told you this

 

[kudymen]

I was told that team was a playoff team that would have been better with another HC. I was even told that Peters was a better HC than Hakstol.
I was also told that Berube was a much improved HC in St Louis (at least until last season ).
Or maybe it's a lot easier to coach more talented teams.

If I listed everything "I was told" by some burner account on the internet, I would have posted a page of posts full of winking emojis

Btw thanks for ignoring the point of my post and instead of that choosing to react to something I specifically stated in brackets as not being the point of that post.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Lol or the Flyers just hire trash coaches because the selection committee is influenced from the dawn of time by incestous pigs.

Orange painted personal care home.

 

[Tripod]

MUST DEFEND

 

[zizbuka]

Then there's scratching a guy for no reason other than his family would be in attendance. Can't wait for you to defend that one.

He'll just ignore it

@deadhead At least be man enough to say "yeah, that was screwed up". At least pretend you don't think Torts walks on water..........

 

[deadhead]

@deadhead At least be man enough to say "yeah, that was screwed up". At least pretend you don't think Torts walks on water..........

I don't think Torts walks on water, but I don't think he's the monster some made him out to be.
He butted heads with Risto, for example, but Risto eventually accepted he had to change, but it's tough to get highly paid veterans to accept coaching.